Are they really better off?

[crackerjack]

Hi guys, Can I apologise in advance this is a long one. In January 2012 I lost a leave to remove case. My two children, now aged 13 and 17 now live in Brisbane. I fought the case based on my unwavering belief that it was a flight emigration. Meaning the mother wanted me out of the children's lives. I took her to court in 2004 when she restricted contact and its been a battle ever since, something that only got worse when I met my wife, something my ex reacted badly to.

 

This was not based on jealousy in that she still had feelings with me. She had been with her now husband for two years by the time I met my wife and she had my kids calling him 'dad' within months, but she was jealous of my children growing close to her (eg, she really lost it two years into our relationship when my now wife sent my son a belated birthday card from her and her three children, and screamed and shouted in front of the kids when I came up to tell them I had got engaged).

 

Anyway my ex wife claimed the family needed to move for financial reasons. She claimed she owed lots of money to her extremely wealthy parents for school fees for our son who went to private school for four years. No evidence of this debt was ever produced. So please take the part about being in debt to the tune of over a hundred thousand pounds with a pinch of salt. They only debt they were able to evidence was the mortgage and a credit card debt of approx £20k.

 

So my ultimate question is when you look at the figures below, do you think the family are much better off financially in Australia? (Also please bear in mind my ex wife still has not found work).

 

 

The following points are copied from the court judgement:

 

29. The Reason for the Move: The Mother’s case is based on the better lifestyle for the family of the proposed move. The evidence is that Mr ***** income has fallen from £80,000 to £50,000 gross pa. He has been offered a job in Brisbane with a basic wage of the equivalent of £58,000 with a bonus of £7,000 pa. In addition, his evidence is that promotional prospects and job opportunities are much greater for him in Australia than the UK. The evidence of Mr and Mrs ***** is that their mortgage of £400,000 is too high for them to afford, and that if they stayed in this country they would have to downsize significantly. Their home is now worth approximately £675,000; and once the mortgage of £400,000 and once the debts of £113,000, have been paid, it will leave them with an equity of £155,000. Fully utilising their mortgage capacity in the UK (maximum £160,000), they could afford a house worth £300,000. They say and I accept they would struggle to find an acceptable 4 bedroom house in the same area for that amount. Any property purchased, whilst perfectly adequate, would be much less comfortable than the large property with extensive garden currently enjoyed by the family.

 

30. Although Mr ********* suggested ways the family could increase their income (such as taking in a lodger), there is no doubt the current level of indebtedness is unsustainable in the long term and the only sensible course is to downsize.

 

31. The evidence of Mr and Mrs ****** is that in Australia, they would be able to afford a detached family home with a pool, and would rent whilst they find a suitable home.

 

32. In addition Mrs ***** has secured a job as a teaching assistant in the UK based around term times. Her salary is £12,000 gross. This could double in Australia.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Petals]

Difficult to say as we do not know what he does for a living

 

I just wonder why the children were not asked if they wanted to go. In Australia family law would take the wishes of the children into account.

 

I feel for you in this situation.

 

Hope someone pops along who may be able to help with the figures.

[newjez]

They had a £400,000 mortgage? My god!

[Rupert]

I have read some of your other posts and I feel for you a great deal. I think that no amount of sunshine and dolphins in Australia will ever compensate for the loss of close relationship with one parent. It is too easy for people to remove children IMHO.

 

But to your question, based on the numbers above, well to be honest, they do sound better off in Australia. I do wonder if the numbers are twisted though, for example how has the GBP58k been calculated, because he isn't earning GBP he is earning $. I am also sure they could be better off in other parts of the UK, where four bedroom houses do not typically cost GBP675k.

[Quoll]

Wow detached house with pool that's basically what it comes down to! I'm not sure that I think they will be better off. For starters £58k at 2012 conversion would be just over the average and certainly not equivalent to a UK £50k (bear in mind ave UK salary £26k and Aus ave $70k - his Aus salary is not going to be twice the national average). She probably wouldn't pick up teacher aide work and if she did it wouldn't be double her UK salary. They haven't factored in top notch private schooling either if they were after equivalence. I'm not sure about "nice areas of Brisbane (with pool)" but their equity - once you have taken out fares and carting their stuff to the other side of the world plus the need to set up with cars, rents initially, etc would dwindle somewhat and their earning capacity wouldn't give them that big a mortgage so even the big house with pool could be out of reach..

 

So, no, I don't think they would be financially better off than if they had moved somewhere else in UK but unfortunately for you, that's water under the bridge and not much you can do about it now - it does seem a very sad situation for you and you have my sympathies there. I hope you get to see the kids every year as part of the agreement though!

[crackerjack]

Thank you all from the bottom of my heart for your replies.

 

First Petals, thanks for your reply. He is a loss adjuster. My children both said they want to go. But to understand why that is something that did not reassure me, please have a look at my earlier posts. There are not to many of them. Just be assured this is not a black and white situation.

 

Newjez, I know. They needed that to buy the big five bedroom house they felt they needed in Surrey, which they then went on to renovate, including loft conversion.

 

Rupert, Thanks for taking the time to reply. The £58,000 quoted was based on a sum of approx $80,000, if that helps. Though he was anticipating a bonus on top.

As you say they could have got a wonderful house (ours is worth approx £220,000 in West Sussex) in another part of the country, but then they did not want to stay in the country for the reasons I outlined.

 

Hi Quoll, thanks for your good wishes. They are not sending the children to private school. My son left his high school in November and is working. They are renting a house with a pool in the Chapel Hill area of QLD. But of course they will still have savings. And as I said before, I think the debt owed to the parents is made up to justify the emigration so they probably have more in the bank than the amount they said they would after the sale of the house. I too hope and pray (and I am not religious), I do not have to wait too long to see my children again.

 

Thanks to you all.

[noworriesmate]

Crackerjack,

 

I understand you are hurting and you need to get some kind of peace with the circumstances you find yourself in but i'm not sure that posting everything you have on a forum such as this is your best course of action. My guess is that you are aware that your ex-partner probably reads this forum and your hope is that she may read this and will see what you are feeling. Honestly, I get why you are doing it and quite probably I would do the same under the same circumstance, however I would hope that a friend would maybe say what I am saying to you and that is, you need to sit down and talk it through with close friends who know you and know the situation. However well intention we are on PIO, all we can do is guess what's really going on - you need friends who know you and what you've been through and probably know your ex-wife and kids as well.

 

I do hope you get resolution to this, I truly can only imagine what hell you are going through. For what it's worth I would hang around the forum and join in the debates etc, build some friendships (albeit virtual ones) but stay clear of conversations regarding the legal issues you are facing.

 

All the best

 

NWM

[crackerjack]

Crackerjack,

 

I understand you are hurting and you need to get some kind of peace with the circumstances you find yourself in but i'm not sure that posting everything you have on a forum such as this is your best course of action. My guess is that you are aware that your ex-partner probably reads this forum and your hope is that she may read this and will see what you are feeling. Honestly, I get why you are doing it and quite probably I would do the same under the same circumstance, however I would hope that a friend would maybe say what I am saying to you and that is, you need to sit down and talk it through with close friends who know you and know the situation. However well intention we are on PIO, all we can do is guess what's really going on - you need friends who know you and what you've been through and probably know your ex-wife and kids as well.

 

I do hope you get resolution to this, I truly can only imagine what hell you are going through. For what it's worth I would hang around the forum and join in the debates etc, build some friendships (albeit virtual ones) but stay clear of conversations regarding the legal issues you are facing.

 

All the best

 

NWM

 

 

Hi NWM,

 

Thank you for your kind thoughts and empathy. I know this sounds odd, but if I truly thought my ex read this forum I would be terrified. I have searched for every possible post she might put on for weeks before posting for the first time and cannot find anything. She has been there for seven months so I don't think she would use it once settled. You have got me scared now though! As for the friends and family thing, they have been a great support, but there are some questions I have they would not have a clue about. Only people that live in oz would know. When you lose loved ones (and that is how it feels to me), you need sometimes to worry at something like a bone till you find peace. I hope that I will find peace in time. And thanks for the suggestion regarding hanging around (though not so sure thinking my ex wife might be lurking), I appreciate it. I have posted on something to do with politics. I think its a great well rounded forum.

[Rupert]

Rupert, Thanks for taking the time to reply. The £58,000 quoted was based on a sum of approx $80,000, if that helps. Though he was anticipating a bonus on top.

As you say they could have got a wonderful house (ours is worth approx £220,000 in West Sussex) in another part of the country, but then they did not want to stay in the country for the reasons I outlined.

 

 

 

They were a lot better off financially with GBP 50k than AUD 80k.

[crackerjack]

They were a lot better off financially with GBP 50k than AUD 80k.

 

Rupert, thanks for this. In the morning I will dig out his statement (it had his contract attached as evidence), to check the exact amount. I just know the first figure was an 8 and it was not $800,000, so it there or there abouts.

[Rallyman]

I would agree 50k in the uk is a lot better than $80k in oz it would go a lot further

[Guest Bazinga]

I am about to sound harsh so apologies in advance. Does it matter if they are better off or not? I'm sure that your daughter is being taken care of and provides for and I know you contribute to that financially as well. Even if they weren't better off now it doesn't matter because she's taken them and for the meanwhile isn't coming back. If you're looking for evidence to give to the courts as proof that she lied then I don't think you have it or if you did if it would change anything.

[crackerjack]

I am about to sound harsh so apologies in advance. Does it matter if they are better off or not? I'm sure that your daughter is being taken care of and provides for and I know you contribute to that financially as well. Even if they weren't better off now it doesn't matter because she's taken them and for the meanwhile isn't coming back. If you're looking for evidence to give to the courts as proof that she lied then I don't think you have it or if you did if it would change anything.

 

Hi Bazinga, Please dont apologise for speaking your mind. I understand what you were saying. And had i not experienced something like this I may well have thought the same. I really don't expect anyone to understand what I am going through emotionally and am not looking for that type of understanding as I know that is a step too far, though i have been deeply touched by the empathy expressed. I am on my own personal quest for reasons only I can barely understand (nothing to do with going back to court. I just don't have the funds). I do appreciate your honesty.

[Rupert]

I am about to sound harsh so apologies in advance. Does it matter if they are better off or not? I'm sure that your daughter is being taken care of and provides for and I know you contribute to that financially as well. Even if they weren't better off now it doesn't matter because she's taken them and for the meanwhile isn't coming back. If you're looking for evidence to give to the courts as proof that she lied then I don't think you have it or if you did if it would change anything.

 

You are partially right Bazinga, it isn't going to change anything now. However I am almost certain that most parents want to see their children and do not generally think, "oh well never mind that I cannot see her / him I am sure s/he is being looked after".

[Petals]

Thank you all from the bottom of my heart for your replies.

 

First Petals, thanks for your reply. He is a loss adjuster. My children both said they want to go. But to understand why that is something that did not reassure me, please have a look at my earlier posts. There are not to many of them. Just be assured this is not a black and white situation.

 

Newjez, I know. They needed that to buy the big five bedroom house they felt they needed in Surrey, which they then went on to renovate, including loft conversion.

 

Rupert, Thanks for taking the time to reply. The £58,000 quoted was based on a sum of approx $80,000, if that helps. Though he was anticipating a bonus on top.

As you say they could have got a wonderful house (ours is worth approx £220,000 in West Sussex) in another part of the country, but then they did not want to stay in the country for the reasons I outlined.

 

Hi Quoll, thanks for your good wishes. They are not sending the children to private school. My son left his high school in November and is working. They are renting a house with a pool in the Chapel Hill area of QLD. But of course they will still have savings. And as I said before, I think the debt owed to the parents is made up to justify the emigration so they probably have more in the bank than the amount they said they would after the sale of the house. I too hope and pray (and I am not religious), I do not have to wait too long to see my children again.

 

Thanks to you all.

 

If they get permanent residency I guess it gives them options, once they are old enough they can return to the UK and they can also live in Aus. I guess you just have to keep the home fires burning. Not that long till they are independent.

[crackerjack]

Hi again, I am sitting with his contract in front of me. It says (word for word):

 

Your renumeration package will be $87,200 per annum, inclusive of cumpulsory superannuation.

 

It goes on to estimate a potential bonus of $8,250 (based on a set of weird calculations I cannot make head nor tail of).

 

So how does this compare to a joint UK salary of £62,000? And is there any way of calculating it backwards to work out what the Aus salary is in UK terms?

 

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[Guest Bazinga]

You completely misunderstood my point Rupert, crackjack knew what I meant.

[lebourvellec]

Hi again, I am sitting with his contract in front of me. It says (word for word):

 

Your renumeration package will be $87,200 per annum, inclusive of cumpulsory superannuation.

 

It goes on to estimate a potential bonus of $8,250 (based on a set of weird calculations I cannot make head nor tail of).

 

So how does this compare to a joint UK salary of £62,000? And is there any way of calculating it backwards to work out what the Aus salary is in UK terms?

 

Thanks in advance for any replies.

If it is inclusive of Compulsory Superannuation (which is 9%) that would be a basic salary of $80,000.

[crackerjack]

To be honest Bazinga really got me thinking about why I want to know this info. I mean in a way its really painful to find out this information after I lost the case. My main argument in the case was they did not need to move. They could have a fantastic quality of life here on a joint income of £62,000 albeit in a slightly smaller house (frankly I never believed they had to move because I think the 'soft' debt to the parents of £100,000 was made up to strengthen their case and as I said before, was never evidenced).

 

Now I am finding out from this forum that they might be worse of financially in Australia. But I think the reason I need to know is to answer those people who, like much of the population, are convinced of the Australia is the land of milk and honey. Who like my sister, are devotees of programmes like WDU, and believe it is a factual representation of how much better off everyone is over there, who therefore think my loss is justified because my children have moved to Nirvana. I would like to be able to say to those people, if it ever comes up, well actually he is not earning three times what he earned in the Uk (as I have already had one person suggest must be the case for some reason), and that his $80,000 is comparable to a salary of say £35,000 in the UK (which is a total income salary drop, taking into account my ex wifes income which has been lost), of £27,000. Sorry for the waffle, just typing as I think.

[Jacaranda]

Hi CJ,I'm wondering....how did your kids feel about the move?I think you mentioned they wanted to go but how did they feel about not seeing you?I havent read any of your other posts,so I'm ignorant of your case.Do you have contact with your kids?Pay Child maintenance?Can you pay for the kids to visit you?Or you visit them?A 5 bed detached home with a pool does'nt guarantee happiness.As for your sister's viewpoints on WDU?Ask her if they showed Escape To The Country in Oz,would aussies assume everyone is living like that?

[crackerjack]

Hi CJ,I'm wondering....how did your kids feel about the move?I think you mentioned they wanted to go but how did they feel about not seeing you?I havent read any of your other posts,so I'm ignorant of your case.Do you have contact with your kids?Pay Child maintenance?Can you pay for the kids to visit you?Or you visit them?A 5 bed detached home with a pool does'nt guarantee happiness.As for your sister's viewpoints on WDU?Ask her if they showed Escape To The Country in Oz,would aussies assume everyone is living like that?

 

Hi Melza, Thank you for your reply. How did my kids feel about the move? That is a difficult question to answer because there are issues that muddy the waters in such a way that no one can really know (and I do go into more depth in my first few posts). In brief, my ex wife is not someone you want to cross. Of course my daughter had very natural reservations about going which she shared with me. She also told her step sister she would prefer to live with us and visit her mum in Australia. I believe these were her true feelings. But imagine being told if you don't say you want to go to cafcass, the whole family will have to downsize to a much smaller house and miss out on the opportunity of a lifetime and carrying that responsibility on your young shoulders. And imagine that even more if your mother has a volatile temper? My little girl told Cafcass her mum was very angry with me for not agreeing to give permission. She also said if permission was not granted it would make her mum and I quote 'very upset and angry,' and this would make life 'awkward'. Even my ex wifes husband wrote in his statment in relation to permission not being granted and I quote 'her dissapointment will lead to everyone being very unhappy'.

 

I think my son, saw the whole thing as an adventure (and at almost 16 at the time that was understandable). He was also sent to private school and had very rich friends. The idea of downsizing really would have bothered him, whereas the idea of a luxury house with a pool, something most of his friends had even in the UK, one even had a helipad in their garden, would have very much appealed). However I was disturbed that he showed no reservations about going at all (even though he and I have always been close), and in my ex wifes statement, she says he was only ever 100% happy and positive about the move.) I would have been happier if he had expressed a few understandable doubts, if not to me, to Cafcass. Instead he told Cafcass he may choose to cut me off if permission is not granted, closely mirroring his mothers desperation.

 

It is also useful to see my sons statement in context with how my ex wife has always chosen to punish me using the restriction of contact when I annoy her (which is why I went to court to secure a contact order in 2004). On the same day my ex wife received my letter saying i was not giving my permission, she got my son to phone me to cancel my visit in 2 days time. The reasons given, he was studying and my daughter suddenly had a sleep over the night before so would be tired. I had spoken to both children for over an hour the night before and neither of these things were mentioned and it turned out my daughters sleepover was the night before that, so had absolutely no bearing on my visit.

 

During the my interview of the Cafcass officer in court, I asked him if he asked my daughter how her mothers anger manifested itself, and he gave me a one word answer "NO." Cafcass officers are not child psychologists. And maybe most the time they do not need to be. But they do not delve below the surface when sometimes more delving should take place. I argued, with the evidence of 10 years worth of emails, which express nothing but constant hostility towards me and when she came along, my wife, that this was a flight emigration. But no one listened to me. The judge acknowleged that I was not wrong to have concerns about the mothers attitude towards me and also acknowleged that she found having to accomodate my visitation a nuisance, but she believed their motives were genuine in that they wished to avoid downsizing in the UK, which according to my ex wife, would be traumatic for the whole family.

 

It is Melza the most frustrating and distressing thing I have ever gone through and I have lost all faith in the family court justice system. Two polite well spoken children say they want to go, the family get to go. They do not look any deeper than that. It has left me feeling I have let my children down for not making my argument strongly enough. (though I though ten years worth of hostile emails from my ex wife would speak for themselves).

 

My son is now saving up to go travelling to Columbia, Mexico and Thailand. He will have spent less than a year in Australia before he goes on his travels. I think it will be good for him. I hope the distance from his mother might help him find the space to grow and be his own person.

 

My daughter was lied to by her mum about how much contact she would have with me. she was told (despite me saying I could not afford it), I would be coming over once a year (I cannot afford a flight, let alone the hotel and spending money costs). And that she would be over to the UK 2 times a year, something she said to Cafcass. Now Cafcass acknowledge in their report that my daughter has false expectations about post emigration contact, the officer did not think it would change her wish to go to Australia if she knew the truth. However I had no idea my ex wife had lied about the level of contact and falsy reassured my daughter I would be visiting once a year, until I read the report and I was shocked. So on her next vist, a month or so before the court case, I told her why I would not be visting, explaining it as clearly as I could. She cried a little, but she understood my reasons. I did not tell her the truth to get her to say to Cafcass she no longer wanted to go, as the report has already been done, and it only my ex wife who thinks nothing of manipulating the children (for example, she told my daughter, who loved her comprehensive school in Surrey, that even if they did not emigrate she was going to pull her out of school and home educate her because she thought her friends were too 'chavvy'. Thereby making my daughter feel she would lose her friends even if she did not emigrate). However after the Cafcass officer had been interviewed, my ex wife came on the stand and said to her barrister that my daughter was traumatised by my revelation that I could not do an annual visit. and that she stayed up all night crying, and that only the reassurance that I was lying would get her to sleep. I got up and said to my ex wife "so you are telling the court that when my daughter found out the truth about post emigration contact it traumatised her?" I asked for Cafcass to be brought back in, to hear this new evidence, but was refused on the grounds that he had a busy schedule and had no time to come back.

 

 

As it stands regarding contact, the court order stipulates that my maintenance payments be set aside to fascilitate contact. I hoped this would mean I would at least see my children (or I should say child now as my son is now a young working man) annually for a long visit. They moved in June and came back for a holiday just after christmas (I saw my children for ten days, and it was wonderful, though far too short). However my son let slip to my sister in law that the family may not come back next new year, and may wait to the following summer. That would be 18 months between visits. But I know there is enough money from maintence to pay for my daughter to fly over alone, so that is what I am going to argue (though of course from this distance I am powerless to make it happen). My daughter is home sick and asked me if she can come over this summer, but I cannot afford this summer and christmas. It broke my heart saying I could not afford both trips. I just want to win the lottery.

 

 

And you are right about my sisters total conviction that WDU proves that Australia is paradise. And I will ask her that exact question next time the subject comes up, and I will think of you when I ask it. Thanks Melza.