Student visas - Read This

[jimbobandrachel]

Hi

 

we've been in Melbourne now for 5 weeks on my student visa. I enrolled on my course this week and today I've visited the Immigration Dep in Melbourne to get my work rights.

 

It seems I was given the wrong information by my education agent and my migration agent with regards to the amount of hours we can work.

 

When I initally enquired about the student visa we were told the following:

 

1. The student can work 20 hours per week (term time) and full time (college holidays). This info is correct.

 

2. The student can apply to work extra hours during term time. Wrong, the student is not allowed to work extra hours.

 

3. The students partner can work only 20 hours per week for the DURATION of the 2 years. Wrong, immigration told us today my partner can work full time in college holidays.

 

4. Also, this 20 hours per week rule is worked out as an average. So in theory, you could work 10 hours one week, then 30 hours the next.

 

5. DIAC will not check up on what hours you are working, but if you give them cause to investigate you for another reason, they may check what hours you have worked and then do an average over a peroid of say 26 or 52 weeks. if they find your average hours to be in excess of 20, then they may proceed to remove from Australia.

 

All this info came from the mouth of an Immigration Officer in Melbourne today.

 

I hope this is of help to any potential students, and also, if your thinking of coming over with kids, make sure you've got loads of savings. We're lucky in that there's only 2 of us.

 

Jim

[steteevic]

Hi Jimbo&Rachel, so pleased that you've made it over there (again)

hope things work out for you both, this info you've posted is pricless, and I'm sure, hope anyone thinking of going over on a student visa will LOOK TWICE at it.

for anyone with a family, it could equate to financial suicide, unless ya loaded.

Stay strong you two, all the very best, Theresa Steve & Vicky:spinny:

Just about ready to give up:arghh:

[Quoll]

This was a report in Crikey the other day - it is pretty much a word of warning I guess. Just be sure to check out that the RTO is reputable!

 

--------------------------------------------------

The great international student rort

 

Alex Mitchell writes:

 

Among modern-day business rorts, the privately-owned colleges selling education courses to overseas students are in a category of their own.

 

They advertise widely in Asia, the Middle East and in the ethnic press in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane to attract suckers ... er, I mean, students ... to sign up for expensive courses for up to two years.

 

On receipt of a hefty deposit for their $10,000-$15,000 courses, students are supplied with a two-year student visa which enables them to work for 20 hours a week to earn extra cash.

 

In many cases, the students from China, Thailand and Egypt work for other family members in family businesses already established in Australia while others earn between $8 and $16 an hour (cash in hand) as cheap labour, some on non-unionised construction sites.

 

Because they lack basic English language skills, the majority are required to undertake a 10-week English course -- for which the colleges charge an extra $300-$400.

 

Students are compelled to take out private health cover at more than $300 a year. All colleges collect the money, but how many send it on to health insurance providers?

 

Under government guidelines, students are required to have nine hours of face-to-face tuition each week. This is largely theoretical as many students are labouring in full-time jobs and don’t have time to attend. Unscrupulous colleges falsify their attendance records to give a glowing picture of their training achievements.

 

One former executive of a Sydney college was so appalled by its practices that he has written to Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, federal Education Minister Julia Gillard, Sydney Federal MP and Housing Minister Tanya Plibersek and other political figures to complain. He has only heard back from Opposition Leader Brendan Nelson who basically asked what the others had said in response.

 

The former executive, who has requested anonymity, believes there are three reasons for the studied lack of interest in the private college sector:

 

* It provides jobs for Australians

* It collects sizeable taxation revenue

* It provides a pool of temporary cheap labour.

 

Under the late and unlamented Howard Government, the private college sector was encouraged to flourish. Howard ideologues saw business colleges as a free market alternative to the training provided by TAFE which, like the ABC, the CSIRO and university campuses, was viewed as a menacing socialist indoctrination centre.

 

The registration of Registered Training Organisations (RTOs) is the responsibility of state governments which are expected to follow guidelines laid down by the Commonwealth.

 

In NSW, registration and monitoring of colleges are in the hands of the Department of Education and Training whose minister, John Della Bosca, has been stood down over the Iguanagate scandal in which he and his wife, federal MP Belinda Neal, are facing a police investigation.

 

The NSW Director-General of Education is Michael Coutts-Trotter, husband of Housing Minister Plibersek, another "golden power pair" of the NSW ALP.

 

According to sources from the private education industry, the more conscientious foreign students feel "cheated" by the second-rate teaching they receive from ill-qualified staff who lecture in under-resourced centres in dilapidated office blocks. When fly-by-night operators go broke and close their doors, students lose the fees they have already paid in advance and face being deported as their visas expire.

 

They return to their homelands broke, without any meaningful qualification or diploma, disillusioned with Australia and their lives in serious disorder.

 

As the college executive who spoke anonymously to Crikey said: "No-one has yet examined the social toll resulting from psychological and economic factors resulting from this trade. Australia should hang its head in shame."

[Guest Gollywobbler]

Hi Quoll

 

Interesting post. I've heard the same allegations from entirely different sources.

 

A private college in Sydney called Global College appears to have gone bust or otherwise ceased trading earlier this year, leaving about 700 foreign students in the lurch according to the ESOS website. DIAC appear to have launched some sort of lifeboat which has prevented the students from being chucked out of Oz, but it would seem that some of them have had to move inter-state in order to resume their studies at different colleges elsewhere. The fees paid to Global appear to have gone to money heaven, and presumably the new colleges have demanded fees up-front, though the ESOS material does not say whether the lifeboat has paid the new fees. It is also silent about the relocation expenses involved for the students concerned.

 

I've also heard allegations about a privately-owned college in Melbourne. According to the people who told me about it, the place is so badly-run that it should be shut down. I asked a reputable, respectable Education Agent what he knows about this place. He said, "So bad that we no longer send any students their way." Which seems to corroborate the original allegations that I heard.

 

I've also heard experts say wearily that International Students are so lucrative for Australia both directly and indirectly that the Government allegedly has a dis-incentive to control the whole show properly.

 

None of the above is fair to the good colleges, and I am sure there are many good ones. I do tend to think, though, that unless the good ones make a fuss about the bad ones, they will have only themselves to blame if they - the good ones - get tarred with the same brush of suspicion.....

 

Best wishes

 

Gill

[Guest Curlysoo]

From the outside looking in it seems that when there is "money to be made" schemes to get some of it come out of the woodwork!

 

How on earth does a genuine would be immigrant student choose a genuine College to further their education and get them that visa in Oz they are aiming for?

 

Though not just in Oz it seems, my daughter who is a student nurse at a London Uni, was amazed at how many foreign students were in her intake, even more so when she realised how few of them could speak english and merely sat through lectures chatting to each other! Within weeks of the course staritng and after attending only the very fewest of lectures ,guess what ...they have disappeared from the course but will no doubt stay in england, they did however stay until the grant payments were sorted out!!!!

[SOMV]

Hello,

 

Here is a bit of clarification on Jim's post:

 

1. The student can work 20 hours per week (term time) and full time (college holidays). This info is correct.

 

Yep, correct.

 

2. The student can apply to work extra hours during term time. Wrong, the student is not allowed to work extra hours.

 

Yep, correct: 20 hours is the rule and there is no flexibility.

 

But you may also be able to undertake work which has been registered as part of the course (this usually applies only to vocational students).

 

3. The students partner can work only 20 hours per week for the DURATION of the 2 years. Wrong, immigration told us today my partner can work full time in college holidays.

Yep, correct: The partner has exactly the same rights as the student. So this means 20 hours during term time and unrestricted working hours during the holidays.

 

There is one exception to this rule: partners of students studying masters or doctorates and holding a 573 or 574 or 576 visa can work fulltime during term time as well as holidays.

 

There is no 2 year limit, the time limit is the length of the student visa grant.

 

4. Also, this 20 hours per week rule is worked out as an average. So in theory, you could work 10 hours one week, then 30 hours the next.

This is not correct. The DIAC is very strict about the 20 hour limit. Simply put, you can work no more than 20 hours a week during term time. Full stop. See below for the policy wording.

 

5. DIAC will not check up on what hours you are working, but if you give them cause to investigate you for another reason, they may check what hours you have worked and then do an average over a peroid of say 26 or 52 weeks. if they find your average hours to be in excess of 20, then they may proceed to remove from Australia.

Absolutely incorrect! See below.

 

As to averaging: that is not correct advice. The policy makes this very clear:

 

Condition 8104 states that the holder 'must not engage in work for more than 20 hours a week'. Dependants of 573, 574 or 576 primary visa holders who have commenced a Masters by Coursework, Masters by Research or Doctorate Degree are exempt from this requirement. It applies to those family unit members who have been granted PTW or a student visa granted on or after 26 April 2008.

A 'week' is defined as commencing on Monday and ending on Sunday.

If a visa holder is suspected of contravening the condition officers will need to investigate the number of hours worked in a week which commences on Monday and not rely on pay slips which may cut across two separate weeks.

 

From 26 April 2008 all dependants who are granted a student visa are subject to condition 8104. Condition 8104 restricts dependents from undertaking work (voluntary work may be permitted in certain circumstances- see section 99 Condition 8101) until the primary student has commenced their course of study in Australia. It also restricts them to no more than 20 hours of work per week at all times. The exception is for dependents of students who have commenced a masters or doctorate course. Dependents of these students may work unlimited hours under condition 8104 - see section 100.2 PTW & family members of master/doctorate students. Dependants granted a student visa before 26 April 2008 will still have to apply for PTW to gain condition 8104.

A 'week' is defined in condition 8104 as commencing on Monday and ending on Sunday. Note that the 20 hours a week relates to each week during which the course is in session. The 20 hours a week cannot be "averaged out" over the duration of the course.

Students may undertake a masters or doctorate degree in subclasses 573, 574 and 576.

Under condition 8104 family members of students who have commenced a Masters or Doctorate degree are exempt from the 20 hours per week work limitation. This means they are permitted to work unrestricted hours. If the student has commenced a preliminary course only (for example an ELICOS course) their dependants are restricted to 20 hours per week of work until the student has commenced their Masters or Doctorate course. At this stage they are permitted to work unlimited hours.

Note: The Masters by coursework qualification has been specified by legislative instrument against the Higher Education Sector since 1 July 2004.[/i]

 

As to DIAC turning a blind eye and being nice when you do get caught out, if only the DIAC were that generous! There have been numerous stories of raids by immigration officers of work places and of immigration officers putting people into detention (although I suspect this does not happen as often as is used to).

 

If you are going to rely on this kind of statement as an excuse when you do get caught and when the DIAC are about to cancel your visa, make sure you get it in writing from the officer you spoke to.

 

Of course the DIAC officer was right; if you do not draw attention to yourself then there is little likelihood you will get caught for occasionally flouting the rules. But my point is that you cannot claim ignorance if you do get caught. Your visa grant letter spells out the rules in sufficient detail. And people do get caught, quite often. Getting caught is not just bad for you but it can also spell trouble for your employer.

[Guest yvonne & paul]

3. The students partner can work only 20 hours per week for the DURATION of the 2 years. Wrong, immigration told us today my partner can work full time in college holidays.

 

Yep, correct: The partner has exactly the same rights as the student. So this means 20 hours during term time and unrestricted working hours during the holidays.26 April 2008 all dependants who are granted a student visa are subject to condition 8104. Condition 8104 restricts dependents from undertaking work (voluntary work may be permitted in certain circumstances- see section 99 Condition 8101) until the primary student has commenced their course of study in Australia. It also restricts them to no more than 20 hours of work per week at all times.

 

I AM NOW CONFUSED !! We have been here a year and we have understood I as spouse to husband on the bricklaying course that we can only work 20 hours. The above 2 quotes seem to contradict each other.

 

Are we aloud to work full time in the holidays too?

 

Also a word of warning , you can speak to lots of different immigration officers and they will all tell you something different!!

 

Yvonne

[connaust]

Some of the better colleges and courses also include for some occupations paid training hours which are part of the study, this is especialy so in cookery.

 

Regarding Crikey's comments re. private colleges, state TAFE and universitis are doing exactly the same and generally even more expensive.....and feedback amongst British Community Welfare candidates at one college learnt that a large TAFE in Melbourne was just as bad....there is an agenda where some think it is ok for the state to charge fees but not private colleges.....who are often better quality

 

Cheers Andrew

[connaust]

I would disagree with DIAC officer stating yes, full time work rights for dependent during vacation. Correct is, definitely no, see Conditions for Working While Studying

 

It does happen that DIAC officers themselves do not keep up with or do not intimately know specific details of visa and work conditions.

 

Recently in Budapest an education agent was cautioned for stating that full time work was possible for dependents of (ELICOS/VET) students at vacations. Only possible if student is doing Masters or higher.

 

If you are not sure check with International Office of your institution.

[connaust]

DIAC WA Processing Centre confirmed that dependents of VET students CANNOT work full time during vacation:

 

Dear Andrew,

 

Please note that only the dependants of subclasses 573 Masters by

Coursework, 574 Masters by Research or Doctoral and 576 Ausaid/Defence

Masters by Courswork or Research/Doctoral can work unlimited hours when the

main applicant has commenced their course.

 

Dependants of all other subclasses can currently only work a maximum of

20hrs per week at all times when inside of Australia.

 

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Name: Jeff

Position: 6221

Perth Offshore Student Processing Centre

[calNgary]

5. DIAC will not check up on what hours you are working, but if you give them cause to investigate you for another reason, they may check what hours you have worked and then do an average over a peroid of say 26 or 52 weeks. if they find your average hours to be in excess of 20, then they may proceed to remove from Australia.

Jim

 

I cant stress enough how important it is to play by the rules ,there are some very devious and nasty people out there who will jump at the first oppurtunity to try and get you into trouble. Do what your allowed to do and dont give the losers an excuse to go running to the authorties,even if it means penny pinching for a while and limiting your hours its just not worth the risk.

Cal x

[Guest Gollywobbler]

Hi All

 

I have asked SOMV to take another look at this thread.

 

At the risk of muddying the water completely, the facts seem to me to be as follows:

 

1. DIAC in Melbourne told the OP Jim that the Partner has the same work-rights as the Student on the VET courses.

 

2. The increase in working hours for the Partner seems to be to do with Condition 8104 and seems only to apply if the Student Visa was/is granted on or after 26th April 2008, which I think Jim's was. This is my own impression from reading the DIAC website.

 

3. SOMV is an Australian qualified solicitor with a very good pedigree in Australian Immi Law matters. She worked for Parish Patience in Sydney, and was a colleague of Nigel Dobbie's at the time when Nigel fought and defeated the Minister in the Federal Magistrates Court over the 3,000 Students whose visas were wrongly cancelled. Andrew (Connaust) will doubtless remember that case.

 

4. SOMV appears to agree with DIAC in Melbourne, the DIAC website and the OP Jim.

 

5. Connaust and DIAC in Perth appear to disagree with all four of the people in Para 4 above!

 

Andrew - are you and Perth SURE that you have picked up on the 26th April 2008 changes in refuting all 4 people/groups above? Is that date where the confusion is creeping into this, I wonder?

 

As I say, I have asked Veronika (SOMV) to take another look at this thread. The number of hours that the Partner can work for must be crucial to the budgeting for a lot of student visa holders and applicants for these visas.

 

Best wishes

 

Gill

[Guest BLOWERS]

i think the 2o hour a week work is one of the worst rules there is for international students,with the cost of living going up,its a struggle to live.and with so many full time positions available,whats this 20 hours all about!

[SOMV]

Hello,

 

Gill has pointed me to this thread again, and I've just re-read it and have to apologise - Jeff and Andrew are right, the initial DIAC person and I are wrong. I am not sure where my brain was on the day but please disregard my answer to 3 with respect to work rights for dependants. Jeff's advice from DIAC (above) is spot on.

 

I am really sorry about the confusion!

[SOMV]

One more comment with respect to Blowers' comment: The student visa dependant is allowed to apply for a 457 visa, if this opportunity comes up. As a 457 visa holder he/she would have unrestricted work rights and this would of course help with the finances.

[Guest Gollywobbler]

Hello,

 

Gill has pointed me to this thread again, and I've just re-read it and have to apologise - Jeff and Andrew are right, the initial DIAC person and I are wrong. I am not sure where my brain was on the day but please disregard my answer to 3 with respect to work rights for dependants. Jeff's advice from DIAC (above) is spot on.

 

I am really sorry about the confusion!

 

Hi Veronika

 

Fear not! It only takes one DIAC officer to confuse all of us royally, it seems!

 

Your original answer was half-right, in fact, now that I have just re-read it:

 

From 26 April 2008 all dependants who are granted a student visa are subject to condition 8104. Condition 8104 restricts dependents from undertaking work (voluntary work may be permitted in certain circumstances- see section 99 Condition 8101) until the primary student has commenced their course of study in Australia. It also restricts them to no more than 20 hours of work per week at all times. The exception is for dependents of students who have commenced a masters or doctorate course. Dependents of these students may work unlimited hours under condition 8104 - see section 100.2 PTW & family members of master/doctorate students. Dependants granted a student visa before 26 April 2008 will still have to apply for PTW to gain condition 8104.

 

 

You quoted the above Policy stuff.

 

Re-reading it just now, it seems that Policy has found a heck of a long-winded way to say, "Business as usual except that with effect from 26 April 2008 and with effect to visas granted on or after that date, the student's Partner no longer needs to seek permission to work under Condition 8104."

 

Arrrggghhhh. :arghh:

 

Take the bloomin' word processor AWAY from these scribes! Give them back the quill pen and the parchment. That would make them THINK about what they want to say instead of endless reams of gibberish solely to utter a simple, single sentence. :realmad:

 

Now I finally understand this wretched thing, thanks to you!

 

Best wishes

 

Gill