Australia should cut PR Visas

[Parley]

8 hours ago, Ozzie said:

Oh my goodness @Parley how embarrassing for you. I am neither! Geez, talk about making an ass of yourself (assume)

Your wife then. The point is the same.

[sunshine11111]

 

22 hours ago, starlight7 said:

I think citizenship should be an absolute requirement for receiving Centrelink payments with the exception of emergency medical matters. There are many who just haven't bothered taking out citizenship even though they have lived here for years and years and to me that means a lack of commitment ,especially now dual citizenship is allowed.

 

My home country doesn't just simply allow dual citizenship only under special circumstances. So "my lack of commitment" isn't exactly by choice. 

[Parley]

But like many Indians do if they commit to Australia they become an Australian citizen even though they give up their Indian citizenship.

[Beffers]

17 hours ago, Parley said:

It is not okay to come over here and receive welfare for decades courtesy of Australian taxpayer.

If you want all the benefits of living in Australia then become an Australian citizen or go home.

Yep agreed, but if that was the case then what about a PR who pays tax and contributes to the system yet has to wait years, now 4, to get citizenship in order to reap those benefits (assuming they even wanted benefits in the first place) - that's hardly fair either.

End of day, there will always be those who screw the system, but for those working hard in Australia, paying all the right taxes and contributing towards Australian society, it doesn't seem fair that they should be the ones screwed by the system you describe.  

Edited May 10, 2017 by Beffers

[Beffers]

On 2017-5-9 at 3:14 AM, Pura Vida said:

I'm trying to think of how many 'marriages of convenience' I have come across over the years. Even advised it to people on odd occasions. Hardly confined to Australia either. Some scrutiny certainly needs to be undertaken. Automatic PR, at least in times of economic strife, cannot  and should not be given out like candy floss.

That's the thing. We all know marriages of convenience exist and yet genuine people do get scrutinised quite stringently, says she who submitted over 150 pages of evidence and the personal details of all her immediate family members, in order to secure PR and "be allowed" to bring her Aussie daughter up in Australia!!!  

Edited May 10, 2017 by Beffers

[Guest263228]

3 hours ago, Toots said:

That would piss a lot of people right off - the ones who hang around to get citizenship then scarper I mean.

Now wouldn't that be nice? Some may even rudely suggest, a bit of a habit of mine. In al seriousness though it would allow more time to shuffle through those of 'wanting character' as well.

[Guest263228]

8 minutes ago, Beffers said:

That's the thing. We all know marriages of convenience exist and yet genuine people do get scrutinised quite stringently, says she who submitted over 150 pages of evidence and the personal details of all her immediate family members, in order to secure PR and "be allowed" to bring her Aussie daughter up in Australia!!!  

Are they? everybody? Or as prior time 'more' investigation is undertaken of those from 'certain' countries?

[Beffers]

Just now, Pura Vida said:

Are they? everybody? Or as prior time 'more' investigation is undertaken of those from 'certain' countries?

I only talk from personal experience. I've had to jump thru hoops and go thru quite intrusive processes in order to secure my visa, and that's without mentioning cost. 

There's no easy solution as the system you describe would penalise those who are genuine, who spend months preparing their application and gathering the evidence etc.  How do you ensure your system doesn't unfairly penalise genuine applicants? You can't. Anymore than the system could ensure dodgy applications are all weeded out. No immigration system is perfect and that's something you have to accept. 

[Guest263228]

17 minutes ago, Beffers said:

Yep agreed, but if that was the case then what about a PR who pays tax and contributes to the system yet has to wait years, now 4, to get citizenship in order to reap those benefits (assuming they even wanted benefits in the first place) - that's hardly fair either.

End of day, there will always be those who screw the system, but for those working hard in Australia, paying all the right taxes and contributing towards Australian society, it doesn't seem fair that they should be the ones screwed by the system you describe.  

I think we need a proper run migration system and not be concerned with ridiculous citizenship rules before being gaining access. PR would then be quite adequate. Forcing people to take citizenship just down grades the privilege of another nation's citizenship. There are a number of island nations around the world, where nationality can be purchased. Although I realise it is not quite the same thing, to obtain citizenship, purely for entitlement does appear a bit of a bad idea, to my thinking.

[Guest263228]

6 minutes ago, Beffers said:

I only talk from personal experience. I've had to jump thru hoops and go thru quite intrusive processes in order to secure my visa, and that's without mentioning cost. 

There's no easy solution as the system you describe would penalise those who are genuine, who spend months preparing their application and gathering the evidence etc.  How do you ensure your system doesn't unfairly penalise genuine applicants? You can't. Anymore than the system could ensure dodgy applications are all weeded out. No immigration system is perfect and that's something you have to accept. 

Actually you can and I've seen it done, but by slightly fascist means without elaborating. (well ok a little perhaps. Surprise visits. tooth brushes, clothes, obvious presence of a member of opposite gender, joint bills, etc)Just how much checking of the submitted paper work I wonder is actually followed up?  I have been through at an earlier time and found it a doddle. Nothing is perfect granted. But sometimes a little will is necessary on immigration matters. (a bit like enforcing the rules on foreign house buyers , I suppose)

Besides that a period of five years could be given to ensure the liaison is not a holiday romance gone a few steps up, or even a local being 'conned' for alternative purposes. What's the rush? Five years is little for a lifetime of bliss, surely?

[Beffers]

4 minutes ago, Pura Vida said:

Actually you can and I've seen it done, but by slightly fascist means without elaborating. (well ok a little perhaps. Surprise visits. tooth brushes, clothes, obvious presence of a member of opposite gender, joint bills, etc)Just how much checking of the submitted paper work I wonder is actually followed up?  I have been through at an earlier time and found it a doddle. Nothing is perfect granted. But sometimes a little will is necessary on immigration matters. (a bit like enforcing the rules on foreign house buyers , I suppose)

Besides that a period of five years could be given to ensure the liaison is not a holiday romance gone a few steps up, or even a local being 'conned' for alternative purposes. What's the rush? Five years is little for a lifetime of bliss, surely?

I get everything you're saying and as I say, there will always be those who flaut the system.  

A period of 5 years may be workable for those in new relationships, but there are those of us who've been with our Aussie partner for years, have lived together for well over a decade, have kids together and can prove 10-20 years of financial evidence to prove joint commitments etc. Why make them wait 5 years before they can enjoy the benefits if being a citizen? As I say, no immigration system is perfect and it would take some pretty shrewd policy in order to make the system fairer all round, ie be careful with the wingers without penalising genuine entrants.  I don't think that type of system exists anywhere!! 

Edited May 10, 2017 by Beffers

[Beffers]

I honestly don't believe there is a perfect immigration system anywhere.  Don't think the policy making process would even know where to begin!! But I can't stay here all day chatting, I've got to get up for work, 0640 here in Northern Ireland lol.

[Guest263228]

1 minute ago, Beffers said:

I get everything you're saying and as I say, there will always be those who flaut the system.  

A period of 5 years may be workable for those in new relationships, but there are those of us who've been with our Aussie partner for years, have loved together for well over a decade, have kids together and can prove 10-20 years of financial evidence to prove joint commitments etc. Why make them wait 5 years? As I say, no immigration system is perfect and it would take some pretty shrewd policy in order to make the system fairer all round, ie be careful with the wingers without penalising genuine entrants.  I don't think that type of system exists anywhere!! 

I agree the trouble with bureaucracy can be one size fits all shapes. The reality of course is far removed. In your case evidence submitted, proving the duration of time should surely fulfil requirements?

[Guest263228]

1 minute ago, Beffers said:

I honestly don't believe there is a perfect immigration system anywhere.  Don't think the policy making process would even know where to begin!! But I can't stay here all day chatting, I've got to get up for work, 0640 here in Northern Ireland lol.

Of course there is no perfect system. It is just that Australia in recent years has deviated dangerously to a particular position, with all main parties supporting the stance for high population growth. The system has been shown to be flawed for a considerable time, with access being obtained through means other than mainstream immigration means to the point where it is not of benefit to Australian workers, in a time of falling conditions and stagnant wage rises and increasing division within society. Not to mention some of the most unaffordable housing in the world. Have a good day at work....

[doubter]

On 9 May 2017 at 0:11 AM, Parley said:

There is also the suggestion to stop all welfare payments to non citizens.

Currently welfare payments like Newstart and Disability Payments are paid to residents as the qualifying criteria.

It was something like 170000 British citizens living here that the Government is paying welfare to.

Other nationalities too but British by far the highest group we are paying welfare to.

 

In fact we are paying out $15B a year to foreigners in welfare payments.

Ridiculous when we have so much debt and deficit.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/foreigners-living-in-australia-get-15-billion-a-year-in-welfare-payments-2017-5

I thought you couldn't claim welfare on PR for the first 2 years that was the case when I was there.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Parley said:

Your wife then. The point is the same.

Still getting it so wrong and still making big ASSumptions! very amusing

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

As if, as I think you well know the answer to that. What is being pointed out is the widespread abuse in response to your post on 'people falling in love' visa's being so deserving. Well up to a point. Hardly a carte blanche though to remain unchallenged....

I'm confused, what did the authorities say when you reported them?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Beffers said:

That's the thing. We all know marriages of convenience exist and yet genuine people do get scrutinised quite stringently, says she who submitted over 150 pages of evidence and the personal details of all her immediate family members, in order to secure PR and "be allowed" to bring her Aussie daughter up in Australia!!!  

Maybe I'm the odd one out but I don't personally know of any marriages of conveniences. I'm amazed so many people on here say they know many people who do this (not referring to you by the way). Others who come onto a forum, make all sorts of assumptions, stamp their feet but no one so far seems to have reported any of these marriages of conveniences to the authorities.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Toots said:

I did tell a friend who worked in the immigration office near Circular Quay (Sydney) and she more or less just shrugged.  This was about 20 years ago.  She said it was happening all the time.  The saddest were the circumstances when men of Middle Eastern appearance and of middle age would front up at immigration with their pregnant teenage bride.  They had gone back to Lebanon or the Yemen to find a young bride, made sure they were pregnant then wanted everything sorted out so the young bride could stay in Australia.  I'm hoping things are far stricter nowadays. 

 

Good for you - however if you know of this next time, make a proper complaint rather than just mentioning to a friend. Having just been through the process myself - 60 documents certified, witness statements, stat decs etc etc etc I can assure you it's not a light walk in the park.

[Guest The Pom Queen]

On 09/05/2017 at 1:39 PM, welljock said:

Fair enough if it's only citizens who pay tax

But if you pay tax in a country don't you want a say in how that country is run and become part of it?

[Guest The Pom Queen]

On 09/05/2017 at 9:30 PM, Ozzie said:

So because of a few bad apples those in Aussie vs other nationality marriages should suffer? It's not easy to obtain a spousal visa and a huge amount of information is required / many intrusive checks are undertaken. I know, we've just been through this ourselves. I don't understand how simply marrying or forming a life with an Australian should mean the spouse should mean their family living in limbo land. If you've submitted the correct documents, undertaken all the police, medical etc. checks, you are thoroughly investigated and are approved that should be that. I say people moving to work, contribute to society, pay taxes etc. should be a very welcome thing. Especially after paying nearly $7,000 and investing life savings for the privilege.

I saw a wedding last week between an Aussie and a Scott and I am 99.9% sure it was a marriage for a visa.  I won't go in to details because we all know it's a small world and they could even be members on here, but there was no love, no happiness, no friends/family, no kiss and they didn't want photos. After the ceremony they both went their seperate ways. 

[Guest The Pom Queen]

13 hours ago, Toots said:

That would piss a lot of people right off - the ones who hang around to get citizenship then scarper I mean.

I must admit that is something that irks me. People who say they can't stand Australia but want citizenship before they leave. Although saying this I know a Melbourne family, the guy lived here all his childhood and his parents decided to return to the UK without citizenship. 15 years later he had his own family and wanted to get back in and it took him years and much heartache. 

[Guest The Pom Queen]

7 hours ago, doubter said:

I thought you couldn't claim welfare on PR for the first 2 years that was the case when I was there.

You can't, only housing and family tax

[Guest The Pom Queen]

6 hours ago, Ozzie said:

Maybe I'm the odd one out but I don't personally know of any marriages of conveniences. I'm amazed so many people on here say they know many people who do this (not referring to you by the way). Others who come onto a forum, make all sorts of assumptions, stamp their feet but no one so far seems to have reported any of these marriages of conveniences to the authorities.

Surely you have seen them in the news Ozzie, it's a regular occurrence not all are caught but here is the last one I read about http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/02/16/indian-couple-found-guilty-orchestrating-16-sham-marriages-visa-scam

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, The Pom Queen said:

Surely you have seen them in the news Ozzie, it's a regular occurrence not all are caught but here is the last one I read about http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/02/16/indian-couple-found-guilty-orchestrating-16-sham-marriages-visa-scam

I did say I personally don't know of any - lots of people on here are saying 'all of us know' which isn't the truth as I really don't. My point was that I don't personally know of any and was wondering why people would not report it if they knew 'lots' of cases?