Australia isn't for me!

[MARYROSE02]

16 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

Just a shame as you have said yourself you never gave London a go before moving to Sydney. I would be inclined more to agree with your assessment.

I hardly think an Aussie themed pub in Southampton (how many Aussies in Southampton again?)  would be in any way attractive and far removed from anything authentic. London had several full of Aussies and Kiwi's along with the odd Pom. Over authentic if anything at certain times.

I think if you want to experience English culture you possibly wouldn't go to Gibraltar. Similar applies to New Caledonia. It is France Lite at best. Obviously they speak French. So what? As I mentioned being in Tahiti the previous month I did not for one moment confuse with France, although did meet French people that were happily transplanted in the Pacific.

Actually being a Francophile, I have not met many at all, French people whom, while perhaps not 'missing' France do not miss French culture and language. In fact a large number have indeed moved on over the decades. Quite a few returned to France or Belgium, others to elsewhere.  

If English speakers apparently have such difficulty in many cases settling, it is often many times worse for those from different language groups. Especially is speaking accented English.

I went back to Southampton after 18 mostly happy years in Sydney and had I not been made redundant, and my parents not been still alive there would have been no point in my going back there (which is why, eight years since I came back to Sydney I have not been back to England.)

Going back to England after 18 years in OZ was like emigrating all over again even with my parents there, partly because they lived in a different village to the one I had left and partly because despite having been back to England frequently on holiday, usually in summer, going back to live and work in winter was a shock.

Perhaps Gibraltar is the same as New Caledonia. I've been there once and it was disconcerting to see British bobbies and post boxes but then again I drove down there from the Costa Del Sol and there is little reason for ex pat Pommies living in Spain to go to Gibraltar if they are homesick, if for no reason other than they are a two hour flight away from the real thing.

The reason I half wished I'd gone to London before going to OZ was to "aclimatize" myself to life in a huge city. Southampton, at about 250 000 was the "big smoke" to me coming from my Hampshire yokel village where you had to drive ten miles just to see a traffic light. Driving on the North or South Circular or travelling on the Tube in the rush hour would have been ideal preparation for eight lanes of the Harbour Bridge or Anzac Bridge or Parramatta/Pennant Hills Road. Now, I don't care, I've gone native.

[deryans]

On 08/05/2017 at 03:01, Toots said:

I'd like to know how many British families with children make those frequent trips to Europe.  Singles and couples without children yes, easy to do but once children come on board not so easy at all.  Most kids would be bored traipsing around museums and art galleries then there is the babysitting to organise if the parents want to go out and have fun at nights. 

Obviously we can't speak for others, and in reality young children are not generally compatible with say the louvre or even Foodland.  

We've almost done it backwards, in the sense that we grew and nurtured our family for over a decade in Sydney, watched them grow, had the usual trials and challenges, overcame many and then decided to move back to the UK in 2015 after a brief if not disappointing and uneventful 3-4 year period in Adelaide.

Since then, and I'm not suggesting this is easy (or cheap) by any means, but a  effort, timing , planning and kids now a little older make it easier for us to travel frequently to Europe, and indeed further afield.  We've really taken the opportunity to travel, Spain, Greece , Italy, France multiple times, Belgium North Africa, Ireland, Scotland.

Our kIds perfectly happy for that 2 hour window and we all know expires with a vengeance, but hey, life is a journey and variety is the key,  in Paris we went easter egg shopping on paris-saint-germain, in Crete Dad dragged them to major battlefields (including Amari !!!), in France we did same, Normandy and D-Day beaches was something I really wanted my boys to see, 13 year old knew as much if not more than most at Luxor about the middle kingdom, youngest practicing his arabic was a huge hit, also the Bosch Exhibition at the palazzo ducale in venice,or the V&A in London,  although parents less comfortable with our 9 year old dashing around the glass museum  .  It's so delightful to watch them open their minds and take it all in, you kind of have to go and grab it for a moment as it may not last forever.

I was secretly delighted when my Aussie wife said to me last week......  "I think we should leave something for the kids to discover themselves........"

Life is short.  Our kids are difficult wherever they are, so why not travel and impose them on some poor unsuspecting border control person somewhere in the world. 

My mates I left here over 20 years ago have also been a great help on getting us back up to speed on what/where/when/why to do, so its not all us figuring this out by ourselves.

 

[Guest263228]

7 hours ago, MARYROSE02 said:

So those pubs have all gone? I remember going into the Prince of Tek and my vague memory is of Aussie stereotypes in thongs and AFL shirts getting hammered on cans of VB in a bar awash with beer. Looking back it was a strange period in my life where I felt alienated from both England and Australia. After 18 years living in Sydney I went back to England and stayed there for 12 years.  People I worked with there called me "Aussie Dave" which I felt embarrassed about because I knew I had a strident Pommie accent, BUT, to them, perhaps I did sound like an Aussie. What do you tell people when they ask you where you are from? "Well, I was born and raised in England, but then I moved to OZ and now I'm an Aussie citizen?"

The odd thing is that all those existential worries about who I am and what I am have disappeared. I'm just "me!" To be honest Aussies (i.e. white Aussies) don't care where I'm from, and for them as for me, I'm just "me" aka Dave which is how it should be.

When I went back to England to live I sometimes had an urge to mix with Aussies and there was a "Down Under" (I think that was the name) bar in Southampton. As I think I may have mentioned in another post there was nothing intrinsically "Aussie" about the place apart from Aussie or Kiwi staff and some Aussie beer. It was just a brand with a theme. I recall another bar in Southampton called "Flares" which had a supposedly 1970's theme, but that did as little for me as Down Under bar.

From what you say about London perhaps Aussies on holiday or as expats are no longer so homesick or insecure that they need to seek out reminders of "home." That is the way it is for most of us Poms in OZ too!

Well as for the final comment, the bigger reason being Aussie numbers have been in decline for a considerable time in UK. Hence less call. Another factor being a different type of Aussie these days. Perhaps working in the finance industry or something equally high paid. (in contrast to previous working class Aussies or Dundee player types) Yet another reason being the Aussie residents in more recent times are far more widely dispersed. Earls Court, has long ceased being an Oz/Kiwi enclave some decades back and they are now far more dispersed.

I think you'll find all those factors working together as reasons. I don't think the fundamentals have changed much. Aussies still prefer their own sort with Kiwi's and the odd Saffie tolerated. Just as many of the Irish do over here in Australia. People passing through more so likely ,than those  on a longer stint, obviously whom may well be inclined to go more native.

Obviously with the time you spent in Australia, not to shout to loudly but your age, would suggest a more 'accepting' view of the reality you find yourself, I would suspect.

I wonder if not most of us, to an extent, that have lived in different places, learn an acceptance at a certain point, even though inwardly being fully aware of the non perfections around us? There comes a point when it is no longer to uproot for the umpteenth in search of something that is never quite found.

I do suspect when one stops asking questions though the ageing process intensifies.  

[Guest263228]

On ‎9‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 10:15, Toots said:

Even here in Devonport this end of our street has people originally from Germany, The Netherlands, France, India, Mauritius, Scotland and England.

The comment above reminds me my first time in Melbourne, back in 93. I had come from France and stayed for a week with a former colleague in France, parent's house. They were Dutch migrants, but here  at the time for already thirty years. (there abouts) A nice 'suburban' locality, for those that like that, but so quiet. Anyway the man of the house , her father, pointed out one morning after showing off his wonderful garden display the cosmopolitan nature of the street. Across the road were Italian, next door was German, Macedonian next to that, Singaporean following, a complete UN of migrant owners and don't recall him saying any Aussies, but expect there must have been a token one or two households.

But the crux being, after a week there never saw any of the neighbours, besides the odd car coming and going into a garage. Never saw a soul walking. Hardly a cross pollenization  of cultural interaction. Very far removed. I had the impression everyone remained in their own worlds with minimal contact with one another. Now living here some years be it another city, I doubt if initial perceptions were far out.

[Toots]

21 minutes ago, Pura Vida said:

Well as for the final comment, the bigger reason being Aussie numbers have been in decline for a considerable time in UK. Hence less call. Another factor being a different type of Aussie these days. Perhaps working in the finance industry or something equally high paid. (in contrast to previous working class Aussies or Dundee player types) Yet another reason being the Aussie residents in more recent times are far more widely dispersed. Earls Court, has long ceased being an Oz/Kiwi enclave some decades back and they are now far more dispersed.

I think you'll find all those factors working together as reasons. I don't think the fundamentals have changed much. Aussies still prefer their own sort with Kiwi's and the odd Saffie tolerated. Just as many of the Irish do over here in Australia. People passing through more so likely ,than those  on a longer stint, obviously whom may well be inclined to go more native.

Obviously with the time you spent in Australia, not to shout to loudly but your age, would suggest a more 'accepting' view of the reality you find yourself, I would suspect.

I wonder if not most of us, to an extent, that have lived in different places, learn an acceptance at a certain point, even though inwardly being fully aware of the non perfections around us? There comes a point when it is no longer to uproot for the umpteenth in search of something that is never quite found.

I do suspect when one stops asking questions though the ageing process intensifies.  

That paragraph could apply to me I think.  I'm more than aware of the imperfections around me here just as I was in Sydney and a few other places I've lived in my lifetime.  The thought of uprooting doesn't sit easy with me at all.  I've discovered nowhere is perfect - that is impossible to find.  The thing is I'm content where I am and so is OH.  Surely in our later years that's all that matters.  If we fancy a holiday somewhere more adventurous then we will do that but we're happy to call where we are 'home'.

 

[Guest263228]

7 hours ago, MARYROSE02 said:

I went back to Southampton after 18 mostly happy years in Sydney and had I not been made redundant, and my parents not been still alive there would have been no point in my going back there (which is why, eight years since I came back to Sydney I have not been back to England.)

Going back to England after 18 years in OZ was like emigrating all over again even with my parents there, partly because they lived in a different village to the one I had left and partly because despite having been back to England frequently on holiday, usually in summer, going back to live and work in winter was a shock.

Perhaps Gibraltar is the same as New Caledonia. I've been there once and it was disconcerting to see British bobbies and post boxes but then again I drove down there from the Costa Del Sol and there is little reason for ex pat Pommies living in Spain to go to Gibraltar if they are homesick, if for no reason other than they are a two hour flight away from the real thing.

The reason I half wished I'd gone to London before going to OZ was to "aclimatize" myself to life in a huge city. Southampton, at about 250 000 was the "big smoke" to me coming from my Hampshire yokel village where you had to drive ten miles just to see a traffic light. Driving on the North or South Circular or travelling on the Tube in the rush hour would have been ideal preparation for eight lanes of the Harbour Bridge or Anzac Bridge or Parramatta/Pennant Hills Road. Now, I don't care, I've gone native.

Of course returning to a place after a long absence is never quite how we left it. I've found that a few times. As for Gibraltar, I found there was plenty of reasons 'homesick' Brit's visited Gib, for a day from other regions of Spain. I spoke to a few of them and I certainly found a 'nostalgia' to be able to buy UK produce and speak English as well as comfort in an English pub with impressions around from 'home'. I recall one woman, living on the "Sol' coming once a week to shop etc. Far more convenient than hoping on a plane to return to Blighty.

If you had gone to London, who knows perhaps you'd never have gone to Australia? We'll never know. I came across any number of Sydneysiders whom passed over the delights of Sydney harbour to live in London. (some prefer an alpha city especially when younger and free)

[Toots]

8 minutes ago, Pura Vida said:

The comment above reminds me my first time in Melbourne, back in 93. I had come from France and stayed for a week with a former colleague in France, parent's house. They were Dutch migrants, but here  at the time for already thirty years. (there abouts) A nice 'suburban' locality, for those that like that, but so quiet. Anyway the man of the house , her father, pointed out one morning after showing off his wonderful garden display the cosmopolitan nature of the street. Across the road were Italian, next door was German, Macedonian next to that, Singaporean following, a complete UN of migrant owners and don't recall him saying any Aussies, but expect there must have been a token one or two households.

But the crux being, after a week there never saw any of the neighbours, besides the odd car coming and going into a garage. Never saw a soul walking. Hardly a cross pollenization  of cultural interaction. Very far removed. I had the impression everyone remained in their own worlds with minimal contact with one another. Now living here some years be it another city, I doubt if initial perceptions were far out.

Different here - we see all our neighbours outside "doing stuff" and end up nattering for a while then being invited in for tea/coffee/alcoholic beverage.  Been to dinner at various houses too.  I've become very good friends with two neighbours.  One from Germany and the other from the Netherlands - both been here years.  On Friday we are driving to Launceston on a 'girls' day out'.  Do a bit of shopping, have lunch somewhere etc.  My Tasmanian Aussie friends tend to live away from Devonnport.  One in Sheffield and one in Ulverstone but we catch up regularly.

[Guest263228]

9 minutes ago, Toots said:

That paragraph could apply to me I think.  I'm more than aware of the imperfections around me here just as I was in Sydney and a few other places I've lived in my lifetime.  The thought of uprooting doesn't sit easy with me at all.  I've discovered nowhere is perfect - that is impossible to find.  The thing is I'm content where I am and so is OH.  Surely in our later years that's all that matters.  If we fancy a holiday somewhere more adventurous then we will do that but we're happy to call where we are 'home'.

 

Yes I accept that. All good perhaps until the other half is no more. Life as many find can be very lonely in such an (social)environment. I'd say keep those 'foreign' born friends close at hand.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Pura Vida

[Toots]

8 minutes ago, Pura Vida said:

Yes I accept that. All good perhaps until the other half is no more. Life as many find can be very lonely in such an (social)environment. I'd say keep those 'foreign' born friends close at hand.

OH is FAR more social than me.  Even he says I could live as a hermit and be happy.  LOL  I don't need lots of friends - just one or two - always been like that.  I only have my sister in the UK now - never been close to any other relatives - apart from parents and my grandmother of course - all long gone now.  I definitely don't have that pull to return to the UK or Europe either as so many expats have.  Maybe I'm a bit of a freak.  

[Guest263228]

1 hour ago, Toots said:

OH is FAR more social than me.  Even he says I could live as a hermit and be happy.  LOL  I don't need lots of friends - just one or two - always been like that.  I only have my sister in the UK now - never been close to any other relatives - apart from parents and my grandmother of course - all long gone now.  I definitely don't have that pull to return to the UK or Europe either as so many expats have.  Maybe I'm a bit of a freak.  

Don't worry, I recall when freaks were cool. Very easy to be a recluse in Australia without doubt. You may think it is your nature, but still have a partner. Few of us are 'hermits' by nature. Periods of reclusiveness and soul searching excluded.

[MARYROSE02]

4 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

Of course returning to a place after a long absence is never quite how we left it. I've found that a few times. As for Gibraltar, I found there was plenty of reasons 'homesick' Brit's visited Gib, for a day from other regions of Spain. I spoke to a few of them and I certainly found a 'nostalgia' to be able to buy UK produce and speak English as well as comfort in an English pub with impressions around from 'home'. I recall one woman, living on the "Sol' coming once a week to shop etc. Far more convenient than hoping on a plane to return to Blighty.

If you had gone to London, who knows perhaps you'd never have gone to Australia? We'll never know. I came across any number of Sydneysiders whom passed over the delights of Sydney harbour to live in London. (some prefer an alpha city especially when younger and free)

i always envied my best mate Nick for moving to London whilst he always envied me for moving to OZ where I ended up in Sydney though intended to live in Perth, so swapping the OZ LA for the OZ Big Apple. I loved Perth from the moment I disembarked from the ship on 3 Nov 1978 but I couldn't get a job.

There would have been many advantages moving to London rather than OZ - regular weekend trips to see my parents, season ticket to White Hart Lane, becoming a "Mockney", know what I mean?!

Are you implying that, rather than having the status of an "alpha" city, Sydney place is further down the alphabet as a far flung outpost of empire!? What constitues an alpha city anyway and who decides its status?

Given the choice now between Sydney and London I'd choose Sydney but i've 'gone native.'

[Guest263228]

2 hours ago, MARYROSE02 said:

i always envied my best mate Nick for moving to London whilst he always envied me for moving to OZ where I ended up in Sydney though intended to live in Perth, so swapping the OZ LA for the OZ Big Apple. I loved Perth from the moment I disembarked from the ship on 3 Nov 1978 but I couldn't get a job.

There would have been many advantages moving to London rather than OZ - regular weekend trips to see my parents, season ticket to White Hart Lane, becoming a "Mockney", know what I mean?!

Are you implying that, rather than having the status of an "alpha" city, Sydney place is further down the alphabet as a far flung outpost of empire!? What constitues an alpha city anyway and who decides its status?

Given the choice now between Sydney and London I'd choose Sydney but i've 'gone native.'

By Alpha I really refer to the rating Alpha++ to which only two cities belong to those being London and New York. (Richard Florida brought a book out on this very subject several years back.Who's your City) One can measure up if one's personality is suitable to the city living in.

(Sydney remains high in ratings at least Alpha) But I know in my case certain cities fulfil a need and others leave me cold. I dare say Perth would have suited you well,(although a bit rough around the edges in 1978) More so than Sydney perhaps?

I walked around Surry Hills some four months back for the first time in several years. I found it somewhat subdued. Nowhere near the vibe of London, but I can see a certain attraction. Not too unlike the area close to the city, where I live. There's really no rights or wrongs. Just what one feels suites them. 

 

[MARYROSE02]

I had a very pleasant week in London over New Year ten years ago I think, staying at the Strand Palace Hotel (my fave in London) and walking just about everywhere. I remember ending up in Southwark one day in streets of terraces and thinking "I could live here." Whether I could afford to buy is another matter. I would not like living in London if it meant living in far flung suburbs

Despite living in a city I'm not really a city person as I was brought up in villages in England and lived in them again when I went back and they are the one thing I miss about England. Within a couple of minutes of leaving my house I could cycle into the countryside (The New Forest). Here, I am frightened to ride a bike and the nearest countryside is an hour away although there are some isolated bits of bush in places. On the other hand, I have a plethora of beaches within easy access which do offer some compensation. I had some lovely beaches nearby in England too but I couldn't swim more than about four months.

I bought this unit in Surry Hills 30 years ago with the help of my parents. The original intention was to buy in the Kings Cross area so I could walk down the hill to Garden Island Dockyard where I worked from 1984 to 1996. This unit came up and although it was slightly out of our target area it was a good buy.  I was going through a phase of awful anxiety and fear of crowds and could not cope with crowded trains and buses. (Not the best conditions to enhance city living!)

Parts of Surry Hills can be surprisingly quiet but Crown Street is usually a mass of people especially at night with all the restaurants and pubs. I don't know London enough to be able to compare it. I know people who told me that Newtown is like Camden whatever that means. I didn't pick Surry Hills for its pubs and restaurants; i just wanted somewhere I could walk everywhere and it's certainly fulfilled that. I lived here the first time for nine years without a car, and now, five weeks and counting, I still have not missed my car. I might book my first Go Get car tomorrow though. My brother lives 65 km from me out in Sydney's equivalent of the far flung 'burbs I mentioned above.

[benj1980]

My thinking is growing up in the UK and having been to many European cities I'm not missing too much. I would prefer to live somewhere sunnier and explore parts of Asia and New Zealand. European cities can have a bit of likeness depending on where you are of course, so I'm interested in cultures away from Christianity really. Don't get me wrong I haven't explored too many museums but have been to town squares, drank and ate local food, seen the sites etc...

The culture of Australia is of course in it's infancy unless you are indigenous, although many indigenous aren't really familiar with their own customs and traditions (or certainly don't abide by them). I have friends who live in different areas of Australia who don't do anything dissimilar to me in the west side of the country. Obviously being such a vast country there should be a place and a climate to suit everyone, but if you are expecting the local population to be different in different areas of the country I think you'd have to look a bit harder, go further afield perhaps.

[ScottieGirl]

Just come back from a long weekend in Spain. Loved it, very different to the UK, different language, architecture and food. Whilst you can meet people from many varied cultures all over Aus the cities all feel to me culturally similar. 

I think language is a key factor , when the locals speak a different language it makes a place feel more foreign 

Edited May 22, 2017 by ScottieGirl

[Toots]

6 hours ago, ScottieGirl said:

Just come back from a long weekend in Spain. Loved it, very different to the UK, different language, architecture and food. Whilst you can meet people from many varied cultures all over Aus the cities all feel to me culturally similar. 

I think language is a key factor , when the locals speak a different language it makes a place feel more foreign 

 

Andalusia is my favourite part of Spain and Seville my favourite city.  Where did you go for your long weekend?

[ScottieGirl]

2 hours ago, Toots said:

 

Andalusia is my favourite part of Spain and Seville my favourite city.  Where did you go for your long weekend?

Malaga, stayed in the old town. They have spent millions restoring it,  it's clean, pedestrianised  and easy  to walk around. Lovely port,  amazing buildings, cathedral and  castles. Plus 30 or so museums and as it was a Fiesta weekend  lots going on. Nothing like the Costa del Sol forty minutes down the road.

[Smiths]

Australia isn't a country, it's a franchise.  Totally different in every state and territory