flag of convenience Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 To my way of thinking you are choosing the easy option. Encouraging thousands to set out on perilous journeys in boats that would sink without trace but because you do not see those people on the TV they do not count and you can retain your moral superiority. For every individual that could be plucked from the sea there will be many more dying unseen but in your mind that would be acceptable because at least they would have had hope and you didn't know they were even there. The potential scale of this issue is beyond the comprehension of some here. Sure, Australia could absorb a few tens of thousands of such refugees/economic migrants from poor countries but hundreds of thousands would have a destabilising impact. And for everyone that made it how many would die in the attempt. In place of writing platitudes you could perhaps speak to or even better still travel to some of the regions involved to gain an understanding into what any number of people are forced to endure. As has been discussed with great frequency, it is not an open door to all, although our mainstream immigration is doing a pretty good job at allowing any one with any bit of paper, but I digress, people will not stop fleeing harm, persecution, violence, rape economic upheaval as well as economic try it on's , regardless of moral superiority expressed by whoever. We live in a globalised world not only for business but equally for people. Many even in the poorest countries have access to the outside world. People are no longer content to sit back and be victims. As such brighter, newer thinking is required in the search for solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Why would you suggest that? Some could easily have been Communist fifth columnists. Certainly a lot would have been economic migrants as gold was prominent among some of the richer, enticing elements of the press and media to insist they were not refugees but criminals and/or economic opportunists. Indeed a number of Vietnamese were politically active against what they saw as left wing, which resulted in clashes with wharfies on at least one occasion. Whitlam the former ALP leader, did not want Balkan Viets coming in who would obviously in his thinking support Conservative side of politics. There was associations with corruption with corrupt practices and like all people some were very hard working while others took different paths. The abuse of cheap labour is hardly confined to the Vietnamese community but plays a part as it does with many other communities. The program the other week showed Aussie farmers abusing back packers by means of low pay and sexual attempted exploitation. Hardly new that. Not all sweetness and light then, the Vietnamese coming in. Bit before my time so can't really comment. I agree that the abuse of cheap labour is not confined to the Vietnamese community, 4 corners showed that. I think the program also showed that the Aussie farm owners were guilty of turning a blind eye and not asking questions when they were offered cheap labour. The real culprits were the labour companies running the white vans. Every one of them seemed to be non-aussie run. The sexual exploitation depicted should, hopefully, be stamped out, investigated and people charged. I noticed that the only ones who had the gumption to stand up and start asking questions were a couple of English girls. The reaction from the mostly non-English speaking Labour hire people was to say Don't bring any more Eurpoeans, too much trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 A big reason why a lot of us left that country that didn't meet our needs was immigration had led to a situation where our youngster would have ended up in a school where the main language would have been Gudjerati (if I spelled it right) and there wasn't an option for going anywhere else. The social fabric of where we lived and a lot of the country was changing in a way we didn't like and it's gotten worse since we left. I don't want Aus to go down the same road. We tried to make a difference when we were there by our vote but the EU, the common market and the open border policy of the EU have created more and more problems for the UK as far as I'm concerned. It was time to make a break. We've never had any hate or incompatibility issues, not religious, don't regard the population in Aus as infidels that don't follow our beliefs, don't think we are going to go to heaven with virgins waiting for us if we turn into martyrs. We were only coming from the UK though and it's not that bad... yet. Sure there are pockets in the UK where you wouldn't notice any problems, inner cities not being one of them. I'm a little surprised you don't spell the main alleged group/language in your kid's school, if Gujarati was indeed the case. Most are middle class folk in Britain and one could only assume lift the academic abilities within schools of certain areas they settled within UK. A program on SBS showed the advantages of a very mixed Sydney high school the other week. Some white Aussie kids even attend for the experience in tolerance, harmony, more open world view, which showed great feed back, even the few white Aussie kids somewhat cautious at first. I do not think you can talk about inner city issues in general outside of your own experience. There are great variables depending on poverty and neighbourhood. I'm afraid the complaints sound like a right wing tabloid that has been spewing out such opinions from the early days, say the sixties. Powell said similar things in 66/68 around class diversity. I do wonder about some people's compatibility abilities living within the fast changing modern Australia. Is that why elements of Brit's huddle together in Little Britain's, in outer suburbs hiding from the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harpodom Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 In place of writing platitudes you could perhaps speak to or even better still travel to some of the regions involved to gain an understanding into what any number of people are forced to endure.As has been discussed with great frequency, it is not an open door to all, although our mainstream immigration is doing a pretty good job at allowing any one with any bit of paper, but I digress, people will not stop fleeing harm, persecution, violence, rape economic upheaval as well as economic try it on's , regardless of moral superiority expressed by whoever. We live in a globalised world not only for business but equally for people. Many even in the poorest countries have access to the outside world. People are no longer content to sit back and be victims. As such brighter, newer thinking is required in the search for solutions. To paraphrase Julian Burnside, if you stop people fleeing war and persecution, sure they might not die at sea, they'll just die somewhere else, unseen and unknown. But they'll be just as dead! Courtesy of the ASRC's FB page: According to Abbott, its for their own good, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 ........so you fulfilled your.....Maslow's hierarchy of needs....! ........do you agree that this should be the right of every human being....? ........and that those of us who have fulfilled ours.. ........owe it to those who havnt........some help..... .......Or do we shout.........I'm the king of the castle.....? I think it should be the right of every country to pick and choose who gets in and who doesn't Tink. We were lucky in that we had the right qualifications. If we hadn't we wouldn't have been able to come. My Sister and family would have loved to come, couldn't get the points so had to stay where they were. So it's patently obvious that even though a lot of people would love to come and live in Aus, for millions of well qualified people who would definitely settle well, speak English, not cause problems, have jobs, pay taxes and be no drain at all on Australia's bottom line, they can't. So in a perfect world where everyone gets on splendidly with everyone else then great. Back to the real World though and It's obviously not the right of every Human Being to go and live where they feel like. Sometimes you have to stand up and be counted in the place where you live to improve your lot. If we hadn't made the points and got in we would have had to suck it up and try and do the best we could in the UK. Them's the breaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 In place of writing platitudes you could perhaps speak to or even better still travel to some of the regions involved to gain an understanding into what any number of people are forced to endure.As has been discussed with great frequency, it is not an open door to all, although our mainstream immigration is doing a pretty good job at allowing any one with any bit of paper, but I digress, people will not stop fleeing harm, persecution, violence, rape economic upheaval as well as economic try it on's , regardless of moral superiority expressed by whoever. We live in a globalised world not only for business but equally for people. Many even in the poorest countries have access to the outside world. People are no longer content to sit back and be victims. As such brighter, newer thinking is required in the search for solutions. I am afraid that it is you that is writing platitudes. Your default option on any thread so far as I can tell. If it is not an open door to all then how does anyone process hundreds of thousands of people and decide who stays and who is returned. On what side is the benefit of doubt given whether someone is a refugee or economic migrant. What is the repatriation process for those who do not qualify by your criteria. As you say no matter what action is taken the tide of human misery will never end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee13 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Well according to Napoleon the pig in Animal Farm... All animals are equalll... BUT some animals are more equalll than otherssss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Not all sweetness and light then, the Vietnamese coming in. Bit before my time so can't really comment. I agree that the abuse of cheap labour is not confined to the Vietnamese community, 4 corners showed that. I think the program also showed that the Aussie farm owners were guilty of turning a blind eye and not asking questions when they were offered cheap labour. The real culprits were the labour companies running the white vans. Every one of them seemed to be non-aussie run. The sexual exploitation depicted should, hopefully, be stamped out, investigated and people charged. I noticed that the only ones who had the gumption to stand up and start asking questions were a couple of English girls. The reaction from the mostly non-English speaking Labour hire people was to say Don't bring any more Eurpoeans, too much trouble. Rest assured a number are Aussie run. I agree Europeans in particular are too much trouble. They tend to stand their ground and speak out. I lasted less than a week on a farm back in the 90's, and the Brit's were as exploited (with exceptions)as anyone else. Euro's and Canadians appeared more inclined to walk out. The list of good and bad was easily available through the back packer grapevine, but completion is far more fierce with massive numbers up from those times and the requirement to compete a set time all allows for a passive and in places slave working force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I am afraid that it is you that is writing platitudes. Your default option on any thread so far as I can tell. If it is not an open door to all then how does anyone process hundreds of thousands of people and decide who stays and who is returned. On what side is the benefit of doubt given whether someone is a refugee or economic migrant. What is the repatriation process for those who do not qualify by your criteria. As you say no matter what action is taken the tide of human misery will never end. No the human misery will never end until consensus is reached on a way forward. It has all been said many times. There is a process in place that determines an economic migrant from a refugee. Most economic migrants come through the mainstream process, regardless of often work opportunities on ground level. The process of course is not fault free. Hard luck for those sent back to face prison and worse due to a wrong decision. At least I understand the subject I am referring to unlike many, that can sound as arrogant as you like as not the least bit bothered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Rest assured a number are Aussie run. I agree Europeans in particular are too much trouble. They tend to stand their ground and speak out. I lasted less than a week on a farm back in the 90's, and the Brit's were as exploited (with exceptions)as anyone else. Euro's and Canadians appeared more inclined to walk out. The list of good and bad was easily available through the back packer grapevine, but completion is far more fierce with massive numbers up from those times and the requirement to compete a set time all allows for a passive and in places slave working force. The biggest problem is not backpackers. They are pretty happy to work for a pittance, have an adventure and move on. The ones being exploited are dependant on the measly income, probably have a dodgy or expired visa, if they have one at all and are at the mercy of the Labour ,white van, companies. Beats me why there wasn't a National outcry and a Royal Commission (which Aus seems to love) after that program. Couldn't be too difficult to find out who owns and runs all those white vans if 4 corners can film them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 No the human misery will never end until consensus is reached on a way forward. It has all been said many times. There is a process in place that determines an economic migrant from a refugee. Most economic migrants come through the mainstream process, regardless of often work opportunities on ground level.The process of course is not fault free. Hard luck for those sent back to face prison and worse due to a wrong decision. At least I understand the subject I am referring to unlike many, that can sound as arrogant as you like as not the least bit bothered. A concensus is impossible if you are meaning all world leaders agreeing a single solution to anything at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I think it should be the right of every country to pick and choose who gets in and who doesn't Tink. We were lucky in that we had the right qualifications. If we hadn't we wouldn't have been able to come. My Sister and family would have loved to come, couldn't get the points so had to stay where they were. So it's patently obvious that even though a lot of people would love to come and live in Aus, for millions of well qualified people who would definitely settle well, speak English, not cause problems, have jobs, pay taxes and be no drain at all on Australia's bottom line, they can't. So in a perfect world where everyone gets on splendidly with everyone else then great. Back to the real World though and It's obviously not the right of every Human Being to go and live where they feel like. Sometimes you have to stand up and be counted in the place where you live to improve your lot. If we hadn't made the points and got in we would have had to suck it up and try and do the best we could in the UK. Them's the breaks. Stand up and be counted? Yes but not to bring old prejudices common currency in certain parts of UK with them. Not sure the really well qualified look in great numbers towards Australia. More USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest241083 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I think it should be the right of every country to pick and choose who gets in and who doesn't Tink. We were lucky in that we had the right qualifications. If we hadn't we wouldn't have been able to come. My Sister and family would have loved to come, couldn't get the points so had to stay where they were. So it's patently obvious that even though a lot of people would love to come and live in Aus, for millions of well qualified people who would definitely settle well, speak English, not cause problems, have jobs, pay taxes and be no drain at all on Australia's bottom line, they can't. So in a perfect world where everyone gets on splendidly with everyone else then great. Back to the real World though and It's obviously not the right of every Human Being to go and live where they feel like. Sometimes you have to stand up and be counted in the place where you live to improve your lot. If we hadn't made the points and got in we would have had to suck it up and try and do the best we could in the UK. Them's the breaks. All animals are equal, ..........to enjoy the fruits of Australia....! ..........so what happens to a country.........with these views....?......when... some animals become more equal than others", Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 A concensus is impossible if you are meaning all world leaders agreeing a single solution to anything at all. No it is not impossible. The original UNHCR Agreement came out due to consensus. It takes a will and an awareness of where one wants to go. Meanwhile the present situation requires immediate attention. Australia could take some leadership in compassion for a change and announce we'll take 1000 to get things moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 All animals are equal, ..........to enjoy the fruits of Australia....! ..........so what happens to a country.........with these views....?......when... some animals become more equal than others", It is known as an Abbott government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 The biggest problem is not backpackers. They are pretty happy to work for a pittance, have an adventure and move on. The ones being exploited are dependant on the measly income, probably have a dodgy or expired visa, if they have one at all and are at the mercy of the Labour ,white van, companies. Beats me why there wasn't a National outcry and a Royal Commission (which Aus seems to love) after that program. Couldn't be too difficult to find out who owns and runs all those white vans if 4 corners can film them. Yes. Or the usual sweep everything under the table or put in the too hard to fix basket. All too common I'm afraid, the lack of will to tackle issues, until exposed in the public domain, then likely than not the wrong action is taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Stand up and be counted? Yes but not to bring old prejudices common currency in certain parts of UK with them. Not sure the really well qualified look in great numbers towards Australia. More USA. Oh sure. The really well qualified would be going to the US where they don't have any race relation problems at all.:laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 No it is not impossible. The original UNHCR Agreement came out due to consensus. It takes a will and an awareness of where one wants to go. Meanwhile the present situation requires immediate attention. Australia could take some leadership in compassion for a change and announce we'll take 1000 to get things moving. That would be a fine gesture but I have no doubt that if they do or if they had you and others would immediately slam the response as woefully inadequate given the scale of the issue. What then happens once you have taken 1000 and there are more people still out at sea on boats. My concern is that solving the immediate problem is simply a matter of getting this off the TV screens and off the media radar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 All animals are equal, ..........to enjoy the fruits of Australia....! ..........so what happens to a country.........with these views....?......when... some animals become more equal than others", That's the point though Tink. Unfortunately some animals (and human beings) will always be more equal than others. Animals simply because they are bigger, faster and can eat the unlucky slower, weaker ones and humans because they've been lucky to be in the right place and got qualifications and experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest241083 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 That's the point though Tink. Unfortunately some animals (and human beings) will always be more equal than others. Animals simply because they are bigger, faster and can eat the unlucky slower, weaker ones and humans because they've been lucky to be in the right place and got qualifications and experience. ........except for the basics of all human rights...!...then.... ........all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, .........that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 ........except for the basics of all human rights...!...then............all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, .........that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. All men are created equal Tink. Then some go out and work hard, get quals, experience and more options. Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is not being taken away from the refugees. They are pursuing happiness as we speak. There is no guarantee from the "creator" or anyone else that they are going to achieve it. Pursue to your hearts content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harpodom Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 ........except for the basics of all human rights...!...then............all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, .........that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Its no good mentioning 'Human Rights' Tink, they're SO last century! What about the inalienable right of conservative governments to screw the little guy in the name of captalism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Its no good mentioning 'Human Rights' Tink, they're SO last century! What about the inalienable right of conservative governments to screw the little guy in the name of captalism? Tink was quoting the US constitution. Written in the 18th century at a time when slavery was still prevalent there. Not a very equal society in the US though unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest241083 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Tink was quoting the US constitution. Written in the 18th century at a time when slavery was still prevalent there. Not a very equal society in the US though unfortunately. .......but still a law to live by........IMO.... .......perhaps this quote is .....newer..... ....... Human rights entail both rights and obligations. States assume obligations and duties under international law to respect, to protect and to fulfil human rights. The obligation to respect means that States must refrain from interfering with or curtailing the enjoyment of human rights. The obligation to protect requires States to protect individuals and groups against human rights abuses. The obligation to fulfil means that States must take positive action to facilitate the enjoyment of basic human rights. At the individual level, while we are entitled our human rights, we should also respect the human rights of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Tink, Do you believe people should be able to just move around and live wherever they please ? No borders. Like the way the Roma people live in Europe ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.