UKIP closing in on tories

[paulv]

They are a party for privileged older white English males who can't deal with the way the world, and our society, has changed, and who make out that they are a discriminated against minority

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/07/jeremy-clarkson-ukip-maverick-establishment-racist

 

They are also xenophobic

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/13/british-asian-ukip-supporter-quits-party-racist-populism-sanya-jeet-thandi

[Bibbs]

Because they're a party of with no experience for one,and times are far too precarious for anyone to seriously think of voting in a totally inexperienced gvnmt, i'd have thought anyway.

Also because they seem to base their whole manifesto on one issue,getting out of Europe,and not much else that i've seen.

The flat rate tax idea was nothing to do with Farage according to him,and i wouldn't want a flat rate anyway,more reductions for high earners and increases for the less well off?nah,not something i'd vote for anyway.

Their plans to attack workers rights i find totally wrong too,talk of abolishing maternity leave in small firms,their talk of abolishing European employment rights to paid holidays and breaks in the working day,whether they would be brave(or stupid)enough to carry some of these policies out is another matter,but you get the general gist of their thinking right enough!

Nobody knows exactly the cost benefits of being in or out of the EU afaik,it's hard to estimate something so complicated obviously,what i do know,is that half of our trade is with the EU,and if we weren't part of the EU our trading with the EU would be hit with financial punishments,that's for certain.

One of the main reasons i think we should stay in the EU is simple though tbh,if Germany think the EU is a good idea(and they contribute far more than us i think)then that is a good indicator to me,because they have a habit of getting things right more often than not.

The average worker would be better looking deeper into this massively right wing parties ideas on their employment rights before they vote for them

I doubt very much there are many people with any misguided ideas about "just" how right wing the tory party are,the way its going under them the whole country will be on zero hours contracts soon

 

Fair enough.

 

But :-

 

How can you vote for change, if you keep voting for the red/blues?

 

You haven't been looking hard as they have a LOT of other policies. It's like saying Labour base their manifesto on breaking the economy and the Tories base theirs on being nasty to the poor.

 

German politicians want the EU. A LOT of Germans don't. They are tired of seeing their money being given to the Greeks to carry on their southern European lifestyle.

 

The Tories are not massively right wing, just like the Labour party are no longer hugely left wing any more. Both know the middle ground is where you keep your job.

 

I'd be voting for a party a lot more right wing if there was one.

 

But as a economic conservative, social liberal, anti-theist, anti-EU voter .. I don't have a party. So you have a choice of the red/blue/yellow status quo that does nothing but help their friends while robbing the average person, or a vote for another party that *may* change things. Hell, they couldn't be worse than Tony, Gordon & Dave now could they?

[Bibbs]

They are a party for privileged older white English males who can't deal with the way the world, and our society, has changed, and who make out that they are a discriminated against minority

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/07/jeremy-clarkson-ukip-maverick-establishment-racist

 

They are also xenophobic

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/13/british-asian-ukip-supporter-quits-party-racist-populism-sanya-jeet-thandi

 

I wouldn't take anything written in the Guardian as fact, it's just the other side of the coin to the Daily Mail.

[pablo]

Fair enough.

 

But :-

 

How can you vote for change, if you keep voting for the red/blues?

 

You haven't been looking hard as they have a LOT of other policies. It's like saying Labour base their manifesto on breaking the economy and the Tories base theirs on being nasty to the poor.

 

#No,its not that simple,i've looked at their manifesto,briefly anyway,the hand they're playing to get seats is the very simple,but effective, immigration card,and out of Europe card,the others manifesto's are much more diverse and wide ranging,immigration and the EU are all i seem to hear from ukip.#

 

German politicians want the EU. A LOT of Germans don't. They are tired of seeing their money being given to the Greeks to carry on their southern European lifestyle.

 

#The German people also enjoy a very good standard of living,because of good decisions made by the same German politicians who advocate staying in the EU#

 

The Tories are not massively right wing, just like the Labour party are no longer hugely left wing any more. Both know the middle ground is where you keep your job.

 

I'd be voting for a party a lot more right wing if there was one.

 

#The tories aren't massively right wing in your eyes,to me and plenty of others they still are,that Labour are more centre than left now,shouldn't mask that.and yes,i'm well aware of your political leanings from previous posts#

 

But as a economic conservative, social liberal, anti-theist, anti-EU voter .. I don't have a party. So you have a choice of the red/blue/yellow status quo that does nothing but help their friends while robbing the average person, or a vote for another party that *may* change things. Hell, they couldn't be worse than Tony, Gordon & Dave now could they?

 

I thought Brown done ok,he was just unfortunate to be in power at the time of the GFC, until that hit,our debt to gdp etc,was less than Labour inherited from the tories

I think ukip have to get about 25% of the vote to get an mp i read? cant see it myself,so if they have no serving mp's to judge their performance on,i couldn't vote for them,chicken and the egg again

Thing is though,basically i "do" think they're ridiculously right wing,and i think the average British worker would be one of ukips first targets,you dont have to look too hard to find that out either.

Right,off to bed,up early

[Bibbs]

I thought Brown done ok,he was just unfortunate to be in power at the time of the GFC, until that hit,our debt to gdp etc,was less than Labour inherited from the tories

I think ukip have to get about 25% of the vote to get an mp i read? cant see it myself,so if they have no serving mp's to judge their performance on,i couldn't vote for them,chicken and the egg again

Thing is though,basically i "do" think they're ridiculously right wing,and i think the average British worker would be one of ukips first targets,you dont have to look too hard to find that out either.

Right,off to bed,up early

 

I will have to disagree on both those points.

 

Gordon was an idiot and bully. Had no financial skills. Managed to just scrape along over a massive economic boom (which was heavily government funded on debt), so when it went pop, they lost everything.

 

Got rid of "Tory boom and bust", which was a small contraction every now and then .. but swapped it with a "Labour boom and bust" which took longer, but was massive when it came.

 

I also think that UKIP want to give the people that are in the UK an opportunity to do the jobs that are available, and then when gaps are found they can import people to fill the gaps from a world-wide selection. Small government means cheaper government. Let them do the basics, and let us get on with working and living. Small government means cutting our ties with the uber-state that is the EUSSR on the door step. Look how great their finances are.

[pablo]

I will have to disagree on both those points.

 

Gordon was an idiot and bully. Had no financial skills. Managed to just scrape along over a massive economic boom (which was heavily government funded on debt), so when it went pop, they lost everything.

 

Got rid of "Tory boom and bust", which was a small contraction every now and then .. but swapped it with a "Labour boom and bust" which took longer, but was massive when it came.

 

#Have you checked the figures on debt to gdp under Brown,or are you just repeating right wing myths?

Up until the crash, that was mainly caused by capitalist right wing bankers and their like,the debt to gdp was lower than they inherited? Osbourne even agreed with Browns fiscal policies,up until 08 that is

So if you'd like to comment on the facts,re debt,i'd be interested to hear?#

 

I also think that UKIP want to give the people that are in the UK an opportunity to do the jobs that are available, and then when gaps are found they can import people to fill the gaps from a world-wide selection. Small government means cheaper government. Let them do the basics, and let us get on with working and living. Small government means cutting our ties with the uber-state that is the EUSSR on the door step. Look how great their finances are.

 

Small gvnmt is just more ambiguous sound bites to be lapped up by the type of voter they're aiming for,like the tory "big society" rubbish maybe?seems fairly similar to me,and we know what happened to that.

The "jobs" have been there all the time for the British people,even allowing for EU migration haven't they? the fact is,most of these jobs are minimum wage,and our minimum wage is worth more to migrants,than it is to some of our own people,for various reasons.

Please,dont try and tell me that ukip would be good for the average uk worker though,because 100% they wouldn't,have you looked at their manifesto/ideas as regards workers rights?!

Right,im off,check those figures out under Brown if you like eh?

[jasepom]

The labour govt was successful due to strong leadership and a good fiscal policy of keep the economy moving through public spending. Unfortunately Brown wasn't prepared for the GFC had to deal with a long recession which the Uk is still getting out of.

 

The UKIP parties popularity is hardly surprising as the voter does not have a clear view of where do we go from here. And there is increased anxiety over population explosion.

[Bibbs]

Small gvnmt is just more ambiguous sound bites to be lapped up by the type of voter they're aiming for,like the tory "big society" rubbish maybe?seems fairly similar to me,and we know what happened to that.

The "jobs" have been there all the time for the British people,even allowing for EU migration haven't they? the fact is,most of these jobs are minimum wage,and our minimum wage is worth more to migrants,than it is to some of our own people,for various reasons.

Please,dont try and tell me that ukip would be good for the average uk worker though,because 100% they wouldn't,have you looked at their manifesto/ideas as regards workers rights?!

Right,im off,check those figures out under Brown if you like eh?

 

What I mean by "small government" is not a sound bite, but an actual dismantling of government departments that are not needed combined with making laws and regulations simpler to then let less people manage them. Does the NHS need to be the 3rd largest employer in the world? Do 18% of the UK's working population need to be in the public sector?

 

I don't know about minimum wage jobs, I've not had one since I was 17. But if you *make* the locals take them instead of the dole, wouldn't that be better?

 

But it doesn't matter. You and I are so far apart on the political spectrum, and I no longer have a vote in the UK (I probably do, but I'll not use it).

 

You are from the red north, and I lived for too long in the blue south. You are Labour and Unions, I am conservative (small 'c' as I'm not Tory) and pro-business.

[Paul1Perth]

I will have to disagree on both those points.

 

Gordon was an idiot and bully. Had no financial skills. Managed to just scrape along over a massive economic boom (which was heavily government funded on debt), so when it went pop, they lost everything.

 

Got rid of "Tory boom and bust", which was a small contraction every now and then .. but swapped it with a "Labour boom and bust" which took longer, but was massive when it came.

 

I also think that UKIP want to give the people that are in the UK an opportunity to do the jobs that are available, and then when gaps are found they can import people to fill the gaps from a world-wide selection. Small government means cheaper government. Let them do the basics, and let us get on with working and living. Small government means cutting our ties with the uber-state that is the EUSSR on the door step. Look how great their finances are.

 

You neglect to take into account the GFC when Labour were in power. The UK came out of it a lot better than most.

 

 

I also think that UKIP want to give the people that are in the UK an opportunity to do the jobs that are available

 

Sounds good in theory but there are so many people on zero hour contracts already that would love a real job. The jobs that some of the EU people that have come in are doing are paying slave wages and the workers are sharing houses just to make ends meet. Unscrupulous employers, some from the same country as the employees, are making a killing and breaking the law to boot. The workers are probably working for cash in hand and not paying any tax. If the employee gets kicked out the employer will most likely be kicked out too, or choose to leave.

 

If Labour and the Conservatives can't sort out the unemployment problem then I don't see UKip doing any better. In fact if they are going to cut down to "small government" there's going to be an awful lot of government and council jobs going. Even more unemployed.

[paulv]

What I mean by "small government" is not a sound bite, but an actual dismantling of government departments that are not needed combined with making laws and regulations simpler to then let less people manage them. Does the NHS need to be the 3rd largest employer in the world? Do 18% of the UK's working population need to be in the public sector?

 

I don't know about minimum wage jobs, I've not had one since I was 17. But if you *make* the locals take them instead of the dole, wouldn't that be better?

 

But it doesn't matter. You and I are so far apart on the political spectrum, and I no longer have a vote in the UK (I probably do, but I'll not use it).

 

You are from the red north, and I lived for too long in the blue south. You are Labour and Unions, I am conservative (small 'c' as I'm not Tory) and pro-business.

 

 

Compelling the the jobless to take minimum wage jobs will mean even higher welfare payments in tax credits to prop up the large and profitable companies in the UK who will not pay a living wage. Your generalising of everyone 'Oop North' being union loving Labour supporters and everyone in the south being dynamic engines of entrepreneurship is also pretty wide of the mark.

[pablo]

What I mean by "small government" is not a sound bite, but an actual dismantling of government departments that are not needed combined with making laws and regulations simpler to then let less people manage them. Does the NHS need to be the 3rd largest employer in the world? Do 18% of the UK's working population need to be in the public sector?

 

I don't know about minimum wage jobs, I've not had one since I was 17. But if you *make* the locals take them instead of the dole, wouldn't that be better?

 

But it doesn't matter. You and I are so far apart on the political spectrum, and I no longer have a vote in the UK (I probably do, but I'll not use it).

 

You are from the red north, and I lived for too long in the blue south. You are Labour and Unions, I am conservative (small 'c' as I'm not Tory) and pro-business.

 

No,i know you think small gvnmt isn't a sound bite,and i've seen their proposals on it,i'm saying it's easy to say,carrying it out is another matter,like the tory big society idea.

The NHS reckon more front line staff are needed,not less,i know our public spend on health is fairly similar to other countries such as Australia,and less than Germany,anything in public ownership will always be thought of as bloated and inefficient by the right wont it, to be fair.

Simple truth is the right don't like the thought of people getting "something for nothing",and i think that's how a lot of right wingers look at the NHS tbh.

Figures show our spending on health is in line with other countries,no matter how many are employed by it though.

 

As pointed out below,making people take minimum wage jobs isn't always the simple cure all it seems,if it's all about saving the tax payer money,we should stop subsidising big business with the various top ups we give to top up the minimum wage a lot of them pay,a living wage would go a long way towards giving the tax payer a break,then there wouldn't be as much going out the coffers in subsidies to minimum wage employees of multi national companies worth billions,like Walmart etc

 

Yes i'm from the north,i am pro union,i'm also pro business,i have plenty of friends in business,and want them to do well,i'm just a sole trader myself,since 89,but i have no gripe with business making big money,we need them to for employment alone,obviously.

Being pro union,and pro workers rights,"doesn't" mean i don't want business to make money too,that would be a ridiculous stance to take,but its a stereotype the right like to peddle.

Sweden shows that unions and employers can work in harmony for mutual benefit,it doesn't have to be either/or

What does annoy me about business though,is the likes of Astra Zeneca going to parliament to basically ask for help to fend off the bid from Pfizer,when they didn't even pay any taxes here last yr,the brass neck of these people sickens me,so no,i've nothing against business,except the scheming ways they use every immoral tax avoidance trick in the book,whether its legal or not,the sooner gvnmt(and other gvnmts) at least try and clamp down on it the better,thats my only gripe with business.

I agree though,we are miles apart in our beliefs,i've known that since you've been on here posting,no matter though,if there were no people with your beliefs on here,i'd have no one to debate with would i

[Bibbs]

All good points Pabs.

 

I personally don't have an issue with the "something for nothing" as long as the "something" isn't pointless and expensive (like the boob ops for wannabe page3 models you hear about).

 

The UK unions seem a world away from the German ones too. But I think that is a fear of Socialism that is ingrained into the German psyche.

 

I don't think we can blame companies (esp mutli-nationals) for playing by the rules. As a share holder I'd be upset that a company I invest in was paying more tax than required and cutting into my investment return/profit.

 

We need someone to write a new rule book. For the Starbucks types I don't know how to do it though (I'm not a politician or economist). They can easily move money about. You just have to see how football teams move money to get around the 'fair play' rules.

[Gbye grey sky]

 

I don't think we can blame companies (esp mutli-nationals) for playing by the rules. As a share holder I'd be upset that a company I invest in was paying more tax than required and cutting into my investment return/profit.

 

I definitely disagree with you there. These companies rely on the goodwill of their customers to continue making profit. If the public properly start blaming them and actually boycott them for their immoral behaviour then these shareholders might start to realise that paying fair taxes on trading profits in the country where they are trading is the lesser of two evils.

[WeegieDave]

For the sake of my family and friends I really hope Scotland gets voted into independence if people think the UKIP will solve Britain's problems.

[pablo]

All good points Pabs.

 

I personally don't have an issue with the "something for nothing" as long as the "something" isn't pointless and expensive (like the boob ops for wannabe page3 models you hear about).

 

The UK unions seem a world away from the German ones too. But I think that is a fear of Socialism that is ingrained into the German psyche.

 

I don't think we can blame companies (esp mutli-nationals) for playing by the rules. As a share holder I'd be upset that a company I invest in was paying more tax than required and cutting into my investment return/profit.

 

We need someone to write a new rule book. For the Starbucks types I don't know how to do it though (I'm not a politician or economist). They can easily move money about. You just have to see how football teams move money to get around the 'fair play' rules.

 

I think unnecessary boob ops are probably few and far between to be fair though,i've nothing against these ops if its causing "real" issues though,mentally for instance

I think the unions have become much more cooperative with management in recent years,the economic climate has probably played a large part in that i suppose,but they're much more moderate than the old days,imo anyway,i think it was Nissan who praised the cooperation from the unions recently on expanding production,like i say,i "do" think they can work together,it doesn't have to be them and us.

 

I understand what you're saying about not "blaming" company's for using legal tax avoidance,i've had the same conversation with a few people on here,and i understand your viewpoint 100%,they are just playing the system yes

I guess i'm just a bit of an idealist,in that i just find it morally wrong,i'm not naive enough to think business will ever think that way,obviously it doesn't(and wont,in the main),but company's borrowing off another arm of the same company abroad to enable them to pay no tax here, is such "blatant" opportunism that it's bound to annoy people,legal or not,even the head of the CBI has called for change in the tax system,so it's not just left wingers like me

I do think naming and shaming would be a start,people can vote with their feet then,like with Starbucks.

Anyway Bibbs,decent debate,enjoyed it as always,wouldn't do if we were all the same eh

[Bibbs]

I do think naming and shaming would be a start,people can vote with their feet then,like with Starbucks.

 

Anyway Bibbs,decent debate,enjoyed it as always,wouldn't do if we were all the same eh

 

The problem with StarBucks is that it's very easy for them to fudge the stats.

 

Either the coffee shop makes the money and pays tax, or head office can overcharge the stores for branded napkins and coffee cups that are sold out of another division in a tax free country, moving the profit quite easily.

 

Companies answer to the shareholders first, unfortunately. I think it is slightly dodgy that the government is now shaming people and companies who are doing these things (Jimmy Carr, Wayne Rooney, Take That, Starbucks). But I do think these things need to be highlighted somehow.

 

Always room for an argument, as long as it's civil

[Guest]

Not sure why anyone who want to spend money on starbucks coffee anyway

[pablo]

The problem with StarBucks is that it's very easy for them to fudge the stats.

 

Either the coffee shop makes the money and pays tax, or head office can overcharge the stores for branded napkins and coffee cups that are sold out of another division in a tax free country, moving the profit quite easily.

 

Companies answer to the shareholders first, unfortunately. I think it is slightly dodgy that the government is now shaming people and companies who are doing these things (Jimmy Carr, Wayne Rooney, Take That, Starbucks). But I do think these things need to be highlighted somehow.

 

Always room for an argument, as long as it's civil

 

Yeah,it's easier for multi nationals like Starbucks too,more so than British based business anyway.

Always civil me Bibbs,i just respond in kind that's all;),catch yer

[paulv]

Oh dear, poor Nigel being shown off the hypocritical xenophobe that he is.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10836159/Nigel-Farage-in-car-crash-interview-as-he-faces-Ukip-racism-claims.html

 

Please can the 'he tells it like it is' brigade note - it's ok for him to marry an immigrant who speaks a different language, and have children who speak English as a second language, because he's a white middle aged man who us part of the establishment. It's just you mugs who have to do as he says, not him and his like

[Guest]

Oh dear, poor Nigel being shown off the hypocritical xenophobe that he is.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10836159/Nigel-Farage-in-car-crash-interview-as-he-faces-Ukip-racism-claims.html

 

Please can the 'he tells it like it is' brigade note - it's ok for him to marry an immigrant who speaks a different language, and have children who speak English as a second language, because he's a white middle aged man who us part of the establishment. It's just you mugs who have to do as he says, not him and his like

 

Maybe i'm missing something but as his German wife is married to a British Citizen i'm sure she would be allowed in the country anyway? So not sure why that is an issue.

[Harpodom]

Good to see a member of the media treating him with the contempt he deserves.

 

Here in Aus we have our own version of UKIP. IMO they're possibly worse. They're called the Liberal National Party. A party that just delivered a gob smackingly evil budget that penalises the poor, the young unemployed, the old, the sick, asylum seekers, students, science, education and renewable energy whilst supporting mining companies, big business and the mega rich.

 

But they would never be grilled in this way here in Aus: ABC and SBS wouldn't dare, as they'd face being privatised. The rest of the mainstream media are so complicit in the process of politics, they they just don't have their own voice. Tony Abbott, Scott Morrison et al are more than happy being interviewed by their chums Alan Jones and Andrew Bolt

 

It's pretty sad.

 

Oh dear, poor Nigel being shown off the hypocritical xenophobe that he is.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10836159/Nigel-Farage-in-car-crash-interview-as-he-faces-Ukip-racism-claims.html

 

Please can the 'he tells it like it is' brigade note - it's ok for him to marry an immigrant who speaks a different language, and have children who speak English as a second language, because he's a white middle aged man who us part of the establishment. It's just you mugs who have to do as he says, not him and his like

[Guest Andy]

http://news.sky.com/story/1263755/ed-miliband-nigel-farage-is-not-a-racist

 

 

Seems like Labour and the tories are "talking tough" when it comes to immigration after ignoring peoples worries over the last 20 odd years. I wonder why that could be? :unsure:

[Toolbox]

http://news.sky.com/story/1263755/ed-miliband-nigel-farage-is-not-a-racist

 

 

Seems like Labour and the tories are "talking tough" when it comes to immigration after ignoring peoples worries over the last 20 odd years. I wonder why that could be? :unsure:

 

 

 

 

 

I'll bet you that's all it will be mate, bloody talk........like I said last week, tell me one thing any of them do that the majority of folk want.

[Guest Andy]

I'll bet you that's all it will be mate, bloody talk........like I said last week, tell me one thing any of them do that the majority of folk want.

 

They don't they just ignore the majority to keep the minority happy and now they are trying to dig themselves out of a hole, tossers

[Toolbox]

Oh dear, poor Nigel being shown off the hypocritical xenophobe that he is.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10836159/Nigel-Farage-in-car-crash-interview-as-he-faces-Ukip-racism-claims.html

 

Please can the 'he tells it like it is' brigade note - it's ok for him to marry an immigrant who speaks a different language, and have children who speak English as a second language, because he's a white middle aged man who us part of the establishment. It's just you mugs who have to do as he says, not him and his like

 

 

 

 

Here's another one of those hypocritical xenophobe racists v, one of your lot too :sad:

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/8994068/Diane-Abbott-White-people-love-playing-divide-and-rule.html

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/8997510/Diane-Abbott-taxi-drivers-refuse-to-pick-up-black-passengers.html