Tony Abbott has done it. He has stopped the boats.

[MARYROSE02]

I have written on several occasions what I would do. I don't continue to repeat myself especially to you. Your flippancy on the matter is hardly to be unexpected though judging by previous form.

 

The problem with increasing the numbers to be allowed in is that it just creates increased expectancy, and more and more people will try to come here. Australia could charter cruise liners to moor in Indonesian waters and take anybody who wanted to come, and/or charter flights to bring them here. It would make no difference.

[MARYROSE02]

There is every need to reduce immigration and I would question the amount of support. Integrity? Really many would seriously question how you arrive at such a conclusion. The over use of 457's, migrants coming with few jobs in their area of experience. Back Packers seemingly increasingly using the WHV as a way into the country. Infrastructure that is no way keeping abreast of numbers. Result being a lower standard of living for an increasing number of folk. All bigger numbers do is take a bigger chunk from the limited pie. A Ponzi scheme if ever there was one.

 

A process that required a bit of thought not knee jerk reactions from both sides of government was/is required in place of illegal turn backs with no accountability for life or behaviour at sea is hardly something to applaud. The boats were not stopped but intervention on high seas prevented landings. How many? They won't even declare that.

Meanwhile camps flourish with suicide attempts, mental illness, violence and barely habitable environments including women and children and people on here claim it a victory.

 

Who says that immigration is too high? Why is 'general' immigration too high, but refugee intake too low?

 

I did not realize that it was so easy for anybody apart from a refugee/asylum seeker to get into Australia? I shall have to pay more attention to other threads on PIO. I never noticed a plethora of threads from happy Pommies, exultant over how easy it is to get into Australia? I was under the impression that it took months and months, even years, of applications, payments, medicals, proving one's qualifications, and finances, before a visa is issued?

 

Who says there is an overuse of 457 visas? The unions? I know people here on 457 visas and they don't seem to have had an easy ride. They are all skilled workers doing work Aussies could not or would not do. If they lose their jobs, they get no help from the State.

 

Who says that WHV holders are both increasing and using it as a way of entering the country and staying? WHV holders can apply, if they find a sponsor to change to a 457 visa, but only if they have a relevant skill. Some do change to a student visa as a way of staying longer in the country, but that is no guarantee of permanent residence. Most leave after their year, or at most two, and go home.

 

And where are your FACTS regarding conditons in refugee camps? What proof have you that conditions there are worse than they suffered in their home countries? How do you know that their mental illnesses were caused by being in the camps? They might already have been suffering from mental illness, perhaps because of persecution in their home countries. Who says the conditions are 'barely habitable?' (Perhaps they are in that condition because of inmate rioting?)

 

I still don't understand how you have access to such wonderful information, facts, and statistics, that nobody else can access?

[MARYROSE02]

And your somehow proud of that piece of propaganda? I wouldn't even entertain it as fit for spare in the bog.

 

For once, Flag, I almost agree with you! It IS propaganda, but isn't it also propaganda when we read about asylum seekers being deliberately burnt by RAN sailors. or someone giving a supposedly 'eyewitness account' of violence on Manus Island, who turned out NOT to have been there on the day it happened. Even the Sydney Morning Herald, which ran the story, admitted further down that she did not witness the alleged events.

 

Why not take all reports, from both sides, with 'a pinch of salt', rather than accepting anything you want to believe as the gospel truth, and anything you don't want to believe as lies?

 

(Yes, I accept that with the end of the monsoon season, the boats may start again!)

[flag of convenience]

The problem with increasing the numbers to be allowed in is that it just creates increased expectancy, and more and more people will try to come here. Australia could charter cruise liners to moor in Indonesian waters and take anybody who wanted to come, and/or charter flights to bring them here. It would make no difference.

 

No it doesn't if proper policy in place. If Australia does not want to partake fair enough to. Be open and honest and withdraw from binding treaty. Token gestures if anything create expectancy.

You in your last sentence add to the flippancy now expected on this thread. Could build an Abbott Proof fence around the entire nation to keep all Abbott cut outs in and those un contaminated out for their own health a safety.

[MARYROSE02]

Well even you must admit we had transparency and openness under ALP. We could source information at will with no attempt to cover up. Can't say the same for the Con's under Abbott. As far as information is concerned we might be living under a police state. Military used against lawful civilians indeed. Utter disgrace. No other country has adapted such means, something more expected from certain undemocratic states.

 

I

 

When have the armed forces in Australia ever turned on Australian citizens? Anybody who has a mind to can walk past a barracks, port, or airfield, take photographs, not go in of course, but apart from that act like a tourist.

 

When did the military forces of Australia ever even attack asylum seekers? They rescued hundreds, thousands even, risking their own lives. The allegations of deliberate burning of a couple of people were just that, allegations, proven to be false.

 

Any transparency by the ALP was due to incompetence, not that there is any right to openness anyway. Since when was the RAN supposed to have independent observers along on all missions to film what they were doing?

[MARYROSE02]

No it doesn't if proper policy in place. If Australia does not want to partake fair enough to. Be open and honest and withdraw from binding treaty. Token gestures if anything create expectancy.

You in your last sentence add to the flippancy now expected on this thread. Could build an Abbott Proof fence around the entire nation to keep all Abbott cut outs in and those un contaminated out for their own health a safety.

 

I thought you just said that, apart from refugees, Australia operates a virtual open door policy to anybody who wants to come here, 457 visas, WHV's, easy-peasy, if you want to come in, just do it, and then find an equally easy way to stay.

[flag of convenience]

For once, Flag, I almost agree with you! It IS propaganda, but isn't it also propaganda when we read about asylum seekers being deliberately burnt by RAN sailors. or someone giving a supposedly 'eyewitness account' of violence on Manus Island, who turned out NOT to have been there on the day it happened. Even the Sydney Morning Herald, which ran the story, admitted further down that she did not witness the alleged events.

 

Why not take all reports, from both sides, with 'a pinch of salt', rather than accepting anything you want to believe as the gospel truth, and anything you don't want to believe as lies?

 

(Yes, I accept that with the end of the monsoon season, the boats may start again!)

 

Laughable. The government won't hold an inquiry into the allegations. Suspicions are strong enough to warrant it but again another cover up by government. The government will not even interview those victim of alleged torture. One would of course imagine, a matter of such gravity, impacting negatively on the RAN, and as well as being reported internationally, the government would be only too happy to prove the allegations wrong.

 

I don't know if you are referring to the woman in question or another person, but the one I'm thinking off was certainly there and was due to give a speech here in Perth sometime back to which she withdraw. We have our suspicions as to why which doesn't need clarification here. No idea if that is whom you refer to but no matter what went on there and continues to go on is a blemish on Australia. The government knows it and is trying desperately to get out of it.

[flag of convenience]

When have the armed forces in Australia ever turned on Australian citizens? Anybody who has a mind to can walk past a barracks, port, or airfield, take photographs, not go in of course, but apart from that act like a tourist.

 

When did the military forces of Australia ever even attack asylum seekers? They rescued hundreds, thousands even, risking their own lives. The allegations of deliberate burning of a couple of people were just that, allegations, proven to be false.

 

Any transparency by the ALP was due to incompetence, not that there is any right to openness anyway. Since when was the RAN supposed to have independent observers along on all missions to film what they were doing?

 

Well the armed forces are not for use against civilians in most countries. PRC in 89 a glaring exception. Rogues in the forces could easily have brutalised asylum seekers. Why attempt to paint them whiter than white? In fact the forces have been rightly in the spotlight with sexual misconduct and bullying so your best option to sustain your argument would be an inquiry. I'd say the government has no interest in the matter and wants nothing more than it goes away.

[flag of convenience]

I thought you just said that, apart from refugees, Australia operates a virtual open door policy to anybody who wants to come here, 457 visas, WHV's, easy-peasy, if you want to come in, just do it, and then find an equally easy way to stay.

 

Flippancy again. Selected nations get WHV's as you should be aware. Certain nations are allowed easier access than others. All based on politics. Let's go for an Abbott Proof Fence.

[flag of convenience]

Who says that immigration is too high? Why is 'general' immigration too high, but refugee intake too low?

 

I did not realize that it was so easy for anybody apart from a refugee/asylum seeker to get into Australia? I shall have to pay more attention to other threads on PIO. I never noticed a plethora of threads from happy Pommies, exultant over how easy it is to get into Australia? I was under the impression that it took months and months, even years, of applications, payments, medicals, proving one's qualifications, and finances, before a visa is issued?

 

Who says there is an overuse of 457 visas? The unions? I know people here on 457 visas and they don't seem to have had an easy ride. They are all skilled workers doing work Aussies could not or would not do. If they lose their jobs, they get no help from the State.

 

Who says that WHV holders are both increasing and using it as a way of entering the country and staying? WHV holders can apply, if they find a sponsor to change to a 457 visa, but only if they have a relevant skill. Some do change to a student visa as a way of staying longer in the country, but that is no guarantee of permanent residence. Most leave after their year, or at most two, and go home.

 

And where are your FACTS regarding conditons in refugee camps? What proof have you that conditions there are worse than they suffered in their home countries? How do you know that their mental illnesses were caused by being in the camps? They might already have been suffering from mental illness, perhaps because of persecution in their home countries. Who says the conditions are 'barely habitable?' (Perhaps they are in that condition because of inmate rioting?)

 

I still don't understand how you have access to such wonderful information, facts, and statistics, that nobody else can access?

 

Well it would appear your finding it tough in Sydney getting a job. You may be unemployable I don't know but were you offered any training? All too easy to employ 457's in place of trainees and no one cares. Far from high skilled professionals either. But we've been down this road on another thread relating to 457's.

 

I'd say a lot of folk are waking up to the costs of the biggest immigration ponzi scheme ever in Australia. At least I hear and read about it on a regular basis.

 

Anyway Prove one thing on the asylum issue raised wrong you can't. I have informed before that it is an area I've been long associated with and don't need to disclose more.

 

Even for joe public it is easy even under the code of secrecy to gather information from within the camps now and in previous times. You remind me of the stories after the second world war, when most in the country claimed to have no idea of the horrific going on .

[Parley]

Flag, I thought you were bowing out of this thread after realising you weren't convincing anyone with your arguments.

 

Your absence lasted about half a day I think.

[wakeboard1980]

No it doesn't if proper policy in place. If Australia does not want to partake fair enough to. Be open and honest and withdraw from binding treaty. Token gestures if anything create expectancy.

You in your last sentence add to the flippancy now expected on this thread. Could build an Abbott Proof fence around the entire nation to keep all Abbott cut outs in and those un contaminated out for their own health a safety.

 

Considering a lot of Australians would have had the same opinion of boat arrivals long before Abbott got in shows the immaturity of people like you with comments like 'Abbott cut outs'. Always got to go for the personal insult, and try and ridicule people. Just face it Flag, the vast majority of Australians do not agree with your take on the matter.

 

When it comes to refugees there will never be 'proper policy' anywhere in the world for people like you. There will always be too many refugees waiting to be resettled, maybe the answer is to get to the root of the problem which would be sorting out the countries where they come from, bu then there will be people that woud not want the likes if the western countries to interfere, but then it comes down to countries like Australia to pick up the pieces.

[wakeboard1980]

Flag, I thought you were bowing out of this thread after realising you weren't convincing anyone with your arguments.

 

Your absence lasted about half a day I think.

 

I think it was night time in Aus

[wakeboard1980]

Well the armed forces are not for use against civilians in most countries. PRC in 89 a glaring exception. Rogues in the forces could easily have brutalised asylum seekers. Why attempt to paint them whiter than white? In fact the forces have been rightly in the spotlight with sexual misconduct and bullying so your best option to sustain your argument would be an inquiry. I'd say the government has no interest in the matter and wants nothing more than it goes away.

 

And?

[MARYROSE02]

Actually, Flag has almost convinced me that Australia IS a police state, turning its military forces and police against innocent civilians, operating a string of concentration camps that Himmler would have loved, and populated by people who are all rednecked racist bogans. The ironic thing is, that any would-be asylum seeker who hears about this, would NEVER want to come here, talk about 'out of the frying pan and into the fire!' My God, he will be turning ordinary would-be migrants from coming here!

[Rupert]

[/b]

 

I'm not accusing anybody of being a White Supremacist Rupert, certainly not anybody on this forum. What I did assert was that I believe that there is a great deal of fear in this country, fear of asylum-seekers arriving by boat, fear of a way of life under threat, fear of their country being taken away from underneath them. If fear wasn't at the heart of this, then I'd doubt there would be so much anger directed at arrivals by boat.

 

 

Scott Morrison says Cronulla backing him as he ... - The Guardian

 

 

Personally, I don't feel that Australians have any need to fear any of those things, but I recognise that mine is a minority view.

 

I'm dismayed at The Attorney-General's comment this week about bigots. I fear that changes to The Racial Discrimination Act will make it easier for racism to flourish in Australia, but lets hope that I'm wrong eh?

 

If you are not accusing anybody of anything like that, why bring it up on this thread? Well actually, I know you didn't bring it up initially, but why bring it up again on the thread.

[Rupert]

You are a fine one to say address what was actually said. I do agree but keep with the script yourself, please.

 

 

What do you mean by that please, I really have no idea what you are on about now. Would you be able to provide an example of when I have gone off topic? Or perhaps bring it up at the time.

[flag of convenience]

Flag, I thought you were bowing out of this thread after realising you weren't convincing anyone with your arguments.

 

Your absence lasted about half a day I think.

 

Hard to resist the nonsense constantly turning up on my e mail. I wouldn't waste time attempting to convince you and a few cohorts that constantly rabbit the same line of foggy thought, read straight from government directives, but for your information do have my supporters. Some don't even bother to participate owing to the one line of right wing thought on here.

[flag of convenience]

What do you mean by that please, I really have no idea what you are on about now. Would you be able to provide an example of when I have gone off topic? Or perhaps bring it up at the time.

 

You know exactly and it was brought up at the time. Back fired though didn't it?

[flag of convenience]

Actually, Flag has almost convinced me that Australia IS a police state, turning its military forces and police against innocent civilians, operating a string of concentration camps that Himmler would have loved, and populated by people who are all rednecked racist bogans. The ironic thing is, that any would-be asylum seeker who hears about this, would NEVER want to come here, talk about 'out of the frying pan and into the fire!' My God, he will be turning ordinary would-be migrants from coming here!

 

Glad you brought up Himmler. A few on here could do worse than learn German and listen to the speeches by Hitler. Make the "We will decide who comes to Australia", speech sound like standard three stuff. Your flippancy continues to over ride your intelligence on this matter I'm afraid.

[flag of convenience]

And?

 

And what?? Armed forces not used against civilians in civilised countries. What part of that is difficult to comprehend? Oh wait....don't bother..

[MARYROSE02]

Name me one country that does NOT operate a "we will decide who comes into our country!?"

 

& again, if AustrAlia is the horrible neo Nazi state u claim it to be, WHY do people still want to come here?

[Guest]

The irony is that the reason so many people seek refuge in peaceful and tolerant country like Australia is to escape the intolerance and strife of countries that do not allow the freedom to practice whatever religion you like, do not discriminate on grounds of race, gender, religion, caste, sexual preference, etc. etc.

 

I think I read recently that parts of Sydney have over 150 different languages. The wonder to me is that we don't have more social unrest, considering what happens in so many other countries.

 

A second irony is that you regularly resort to bigotted remarks - I seem to recall a reference to 'red necked bogans' - someone else has just called Thatcher a witch. So what? I don't care if you walked down the street outside my home shouting 'Mary Rose is a racist, bigotted, neo Nazi, lazy Pommie b******!'

 

Naturally the left are hypocrites enough to be outraged at someone holding a banner up saying 'Ditch the witch' about Gillard, but think it's entirely right and proper (and definitely NOT bigotted) to walk the streets wearing T shirts emblazoned with 'F*** Tony Abbott!' Free speech isn't it, with no restrictions.

 

 

I'm not sure if I've referred to anyone as a 'red necked Bogan' Dave, but seeing as I don't think anyone would ever admit to being a Bogan then I doubt it's caused offence!. Granted, Australians from a lower socio-economic background, with a penchant for mullets and Southern Cross tattoos are the subject of snobbish ridicule, but have they ever been prevented from residing somewhere, from practising their faith, or been spat at in the street or subjected to violence and even death because of their appearance or the way they live their life?. You're right, Australia is still a largely peaceful and tolerant country, and how many others in the world can make that boast?. But, when asylum-seekers arriving by boat are vilified before even having their claims assessed, are held in unsafe detention and the Minister responsible for their treatment boasts of how his constituents urged him to "Keep giving it to 'em and don't back down," then I wonder for how much longer Australia can claim the right to be a tolerant country.

 

In any country there are those who wear their hatred towards and intolerance of others like a badge of honour. In good times they remain a marginalised minority, but in times of actual or perceived crisis, their voices grow louder and their numbers swell. As I've said before, I don't think Australians need to be fearful of asylum-seekers arriving by boat, but nevertheless, there is palpable public fear and anger directed at such new arrivals. The government of this country seem to regard the boats as an enemy to be vanquished, and are preparing to amend legislation which counters racial abuse. Freedom from bigotry, prejudice and violence should be available to everybody in this country. If we allow government to vilify certain groups, to adopt the view that bigots need protecting and amend legislation to afford them protection, then we run the risk of slowly turning from a friendly, welcoming society into an unequal, divided and angry one.

 

It hasn't happened here yet thank goodness, but just because it hasn't doesn't mean it couldn't.

[flag of convenience]

Name me one country that does NOT operate a "we will decide who comes into our country!?"

 

& again, if AustrAlia is the horrible neo Nazi state u claim it to be, WHY do people still want to come here?

 

Name me a country that uses its armed forces to prevent asylum seekers claiming their legal right to have their claim heard? The rest of your statement displays continued flippancy. Your as bad as another poster on here with claims I expressed Au is a horrible neo nazi state. Where you get such rubbish? Wishful thinking perhaps on your part.

[Parley]

We are not preventing them having their claim heard. What rot. There claims will be heard. They will be assessed in PNG.