Metoo Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 No, not at all - but that's the law we have at the moment so that's what we are stuck with. So, we all agree that 4 yrs is not long enough, and basically we all agree that the law is wrong. How will we ever change the law if people like you, and the people on the parole board defend the release of this woman? if the law is wrong we should all be screaming it from the roof tops not shrugging our shoulders and saying well that's the law so "what's the problem" RIP baby Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulv Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 So, we all agree that 4 yrs is not long enough, and basically we all agree that the law is wrong. How will we ever change the law if people like you, and the people on the parole board defend the release of this woman? if the law is wrong we should all be screaming it from the roof tops not shrugging our shoulders and saying well that's the law so "what's the problem" RIP baby Peter I didn't realise anyone had 'defended the release' of Tracey Connelly. I certainly haven't. What I have tried to do is inject a little sobriety and reflection into the thread. People have fantasised about her being tortured, harmed, locked up forever, killed. Others have blamed those who don't want to join the lynch mob for the child murders that take place! People truly have taken leave of their senses. It is an understandably emotive subject - for those of us with kids and others besides. All I'm trying to do is help people see another side to this. Violent adults take it out on children, who grow into violent adults- there's a cycle here and the sooner that people accept and understand this very clear and accepted link, we might as a country be able to have an adult discussion about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted November 1, 2013 Author Share Posted November 1, 2013 Really? Do you have any evidence to support this theory?There are fewer child murders (at the hands of parents/guardians) now than there have ever been. This number has been falling for the last 40 years and children in the UK are safer than in many other similar countries "But it also shows a dramatic drop in numbers since the 1970s. The authors compare the figures to nine other major developed countries and conclude that child deaths related to abuse have fallen faster in England & Wales than in most similar countries – a fall in the overall total by 66 per cent in 30 years, or 76 per cent when measured as a number per million population." also from article source: (British Journal of Social Work ) by Colin Pritchard and Richard Williams. But they do not cite a source.. "Their total is 549 abuse-related deaths a year in recent years, much higher than figures from other sources because it includes categories that may or may not be abuse-related." it all stinks a little to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulv Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 also from article source: (British Journal of Social Work ) by Colin Pritchard and Richard Williams. But they do not cite a source.."Their total is 549 abuse-related deaths a year in recent years, much higher than figures from other sources because it includes categories that may or may not be abuse-related." it all stinks a little to me. "These child deaths have also fallen faster than have all causes of death, which show a 67 per cent decline over the same period, measured per million population. They place England & Wales the second lowest of the ten countries for child-abuse related deaths, bettered only by Italy. Their conclusion drawn is that the much-criticised child protection services have actually done a better job than they are generally credited with. An alternative explanation might be that parents in England & Wales have become less violent and abusive towards their children at a rate not matched elsewhere. The authors remark: “The extent of the improvements, especially in England & Wales, may be surprising, as the media imply that matters have never been worse”. And the NSPCC figures - do they stink too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted November 1, 2013 Author Share Posted November 1, 2013 "These child deaths have also fallen faster than have all causes of death, which show a 67 per cent decline over the same period, measured per million population. They place England & Wales the second lowest of the ten countries for child-abuse related deaths, bettered only by Italy.Their conclusion drawn is that the much-criticised child protection services have actually done a better job than they are generally credited with. An alternative explanation might be that parents in England & Wales have become less violent and abusive towards their children at a rate not matched elsewhere. The authors remark: “The extent of the improvements, especially in England & Wales, may be surprising, as the media imply that matters have never been worse”. And the NSPCC figures - do they stink too? TBH when it comes to cases like this statistics don't make any difference to my opinion, 1 is too many as far as i'm concerned. You said "She has completed enough of her sentence to be eligible for release - what's the problem?" are you OK with the fact that she will be released? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andy Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 TBH when it comes to cases like this statistics don't make any difference to my opinion, 1 is too many as far as i'm concerned.You said "She has completed enough of her sentence to be eligible for release - what's the problem?" are you OK with the fact that she will be released? He has already said that the original sentence was insufficient, he is also just saying that the terms of her release is down to the law courts and he is right. The problem is the original sentencing not being anywhere near long enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulv Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 TBH when it comes to cases like this statistics don't make any difference to my opinion, 1 is too many as far as i'm concerned.You said "She has completed enough of her sentence to be eligible for release - what's the problem?" are you OK with the fact that she will be released? In the context of someone serving enough of their sentence so they are eligible for early release- yes. That is a very separate issue to me agreeing with the original sentence, or the verdict in court. But lots of posters have gone off on one without being able to separate these two issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulv Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 TBH when it comes to cases like this statistics don't make any difference to my opinion, 1 is too many as far as i'm concerned.You said "She has completed enough of her sentence to be eligible for release - what's the problem?" are you OK with the fact that she will be released? 1 is absolutely too many, but we have 50 or so every year Simmo. Why wait until a tabloid runs a front page about the release of this poor wretch(instead of their own phone hacking trial!!). If people feel so strong they should be writing to their MP for better resources for social services to try and prevent these things happening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted November 2, 2013 Author Share Posted November 2, 2013 1 is absolutely too many, but we have 50 or so every year Simmo. Why wait until a tabloid runs a front page about the release of this poor wretch(instead of their own phone hacking trial!!). If people feel so strong they should be writing to their MP for better resources for social services to try and prevent these things happening I don't think lack of resources are a problem and the hacking trail is a totally different topic (why do you always do that?) There is something wrong with our social services. We constantly read about failures and I don't care if i read it in trashy tabloids or a "respectable" broad sheet, i'm glad they report it. I don't know what is causing the failures but its obvious that it needs urgent attention. A serious case review published on Tuesday said the boy appeared to be invisible to the many professionals who had contact with him but did not step in. The review team could find no record of any conversation with Daniel about his home life, his feelings or his relationships with his mother and her male partners.The report found that a vast number of professionals had contact with Daniel and his family but nobody put together the full picture of the abuse the boy was suffering at home in Coventry, where he was kept locked in a filthy box-room, denied food and subjected to physical torture. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/17/daniel-pelka-mandatory-reporting-child-abuse That's just one. here are google search results for the past year only with the search "social services failures uk" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest16631 Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 .....google the successes....... ......the children saved........... .......the family's helped out of these situation...... .......google the reasons these atrocities happen..... .......the vicious cycle of abuse running through some family's and poor areas...... .......add to this the poverty ,the lack of work......health care,education....... .......a country groaning at the seams with over stretched resources........ .......of course the tabloids will report on a death......an atrocity.......it needs to be addressed.... .......but for many........it's just another witch hunt....... ........a blame game.......for a situation that goes beyond the the failing of baby P....... .........it's a problem of gargantuan proportions ..........dealt with by a group of caring professionals..... ........who only come to our attention when they fail........ ........perhaps some support for a service lacking in funding and people....... .........as a people we seem too quick to point out the failings of our health care..... .........our NHS.......our social services........ ..........stand up and and shout for change ......for support.....funding...... ..........look out for your neighbour........the kid down the road....... ..........speak out ,instead of blaming ....... ...........take responsibility for a society we live in........ ............and support those who care and do ...............just my thoughts.........tink x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted November 2, 2013 Author Share Posted November 2, 2013 .....google the successes.............the children saved........... .......the family's helped out of these situation...... .......google the reasons these atrocities happen..... .......the vicious cycle of abuse running through some family's and poor areas...... .......add to this the poverty ,the lack of work......health care,education....... .......a country groaning at the seams with over stretched resources........ .......of course the tabloids will report on a death......an atrocity.......it needs to be addressed.... .......but for many........it's just another witch hunt....... ........a blame game.......for a situation that goes beyond the the failing of baby P....... .........it's a problem of gargantuan proportions ..........dealt with by a group of caring professionals..... ........who only come to our attention when they fail........ ........perhaps some support for a service lacking in funding and people....... .........as a people we seem too quick to point out the failings of our health care..... .........our NHS.......our social services........ ..........stand up and and shout for change ......for support.....funding...... ..........look out for your neighbour........the kid down the road....... ..........speak out ,instead of blaming ....... ...........take responsibility for a society we live in........ ............and support those who care and do ...............just my thoughts.........tink x Yes that's great but the evidence is plain to see that the social services is failing on a large scale. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/six-figure-payout-for-baby-p-council-child-protection-boss-sharon-shoesmith-over-unfair-dismissal-8910371.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest16631 Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Yes that's great but the evidence is plain to see that the social services is failing on a large scale.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/six-figure-payout-for-baby-p-council-child-protection-boss-sharon-shoesmith-over-unfair-dismissal-8910371.html .......and I can find plenty of successes........ ........towns where improvements have been made........ .........family's helped.......or children removed from unsafe environments...... .........my point was..........that those who constantly find the negatives......... .........point out the failings and have little to offer in way of a solution........ ..........even an opinion on the other side of the coin......the places where situations are improved.... ...........do little except feed a negative and destructive attitude...... ...........situations of anger and discontent are fuelled by the press.....and those who choose not to look beyond the headlines.... ...........to sensationalise a failing in a service.......on the back of a devastating death of an innocent...... ...........is despicable IMO....... ............this case is contained..........a worker( boss or not)has been identified and held responsible...... ............but to say ......social services is failing on a large scale........is unsupported....... ............I do hope that the failings in this case are learned from......... ............that a new 'head of child services in this area'.........has a better understanding and empathy for her/his role...... ...........but we as a public must take some responsibility........ .............too often now we are afraid of getting involved........ ..............through fear of interfering or getting it wrong.........have we swung to far from the interfering mosey neighbour...? ..............and at what cost.......? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyHeart Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 I feel very sorry for the scapegoated boss of social services who got the boot....leaned on from above to provide a service without proper and adequate resources and maligned from below, these managers are in a no win situation. Till it's not about resources and the courts have real sentencing powers...nothing will change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulv Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Yes that's great but the evidence is plain to see that the social services is failing on a large scale.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/six-figure-payout-for-baby-p-council-child-protection-boss-sharon-shoesmith-over-unfair-dismissal-8910371.html This story relates to politicians sacking people without due process. And these people then having to go to court to get their rightful entitlement. Try again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellers and Whitehead Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Paul isn't trolling, and is probably more qualified and understands the consequences more than a lot of us do due to his occupation. But, In the eyes of the law, she has served her time, I think the law is a disgrace if this is what punishment is. what is your line of work Paul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulv Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 what is your line of work Paul? I'm a Social Worker who manages a Childrens home for 11-18 year olds, and I'm a foster carer for 0-6 year olds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulv Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 TBH when it comes to cases like this statistics don't make any difference to my opinion, 1 is too many as far as i'm concerned.You said "She has completed enough of her sentence to be eligible for release - what's the problem?" are you OK with the fact that she will be released? "TBH facts don't matter to me, my uninformed opinion is far more relevant then any real evidence" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellers and Whitehead Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 I don't think lack of resources are a problem and the hacking trail is a totally different topic (why do you always do that?) There is something wrong with our social services. We constantly read about failures and I don't care if i read it in trashy tabloids or a "respectable" broad sheet, i'm glad they report it.I don't know what is causing the failures but its obvious that it needs urgent attention. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/17/daniel-pelka-mandatory-reporting-child-abuse That's just one. here are google search results for the past year only with the search "social services failures uk" i wasn't going to get involved, but...do you not see the connection between failings in social services and how that is linked to lack of resources?? Having to save money for the council, equals limited social workers on the frontline, lots of risk of harm/ abuse referrals need to be investigated, therefore social workers have more and more work, and ultimately less time to spend with families, it's inevitable failings are going to happen. It's not always the social workers fault, but that of the government/council who who not provide enough staff to spend sufficient time investigating child protection concerns/ visits etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellers and Whitehead Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Yes that's great but the evidence is plain to see that the social services is failing on a large scale.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/six-figure-payout-for-baby-p-council-child-protection-boss-sharon-shoesmith-over-unfair-dismissal-8910371.html I don't see it's failing on a large scale, having just returned from two years in Australia, I would say that is failing children on a large scale. However they don't report as much on child protection as the UK do..so it's not so visible to most, unless you search for child protection issues/deaths/stats etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulv Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 I don't think lack of resources are a problem and the hacking trail is a totally different topic (why do you always do that?) There is something wrong with our social services. We constantly read about failures and I don't care if i read it in trashy tabloids or a "respectable" broad sheet, i'm glad they report it.I don't know what is causing the failures but its obvious that it needs urgent attention. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/17/daniel-pelka-mandatory-reporting-child-abuse That's just one. here are google search results for the past year only with the search "social services failures uk" The laws of the country stipulate that children cannot be named when SW are involved with them or their families. So the many many successes you would never know about. However I have worked with at least 30 children in my day job who have been rescued from neglect, emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, sexual exploitation, prostitution, criminalization, drug running, gang culture, scapegoating within the family, lack of support for education and social integration - the list goes on. We have also fostered younger kids who have been reunited with loving parents who have been supported by SW to learn better parenting styles and techniques, and some who have gone on to be adopted by families desperate for a child. But these stories don't make the news, so people may not know they happen. They also don't fit the narrative that SW don't protect those they are paid to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 i wasn't going to get involved, but...do you not see the connection between failings in social services and how that is linked to lack of resources?? Having to save money for the council, equals limited social workers on the frontline, lots of risk of harm/ abuse referrals need to be investigated, therefore social workers have more and more work, and ultimately less time to spend with families, it's inevitable failings are going to happen. It's not always the social workers fault, but that of the government/council who who not provide enough staff to spend sufficient time investigating child protection concerns/ visits etc. Thers been plenty of cases where the police have visited at risk kids and not taken the right action too,as well as doctors,i think its wrong to blame "just" the social workers,but the likes of what was allowed to happen to baby p "is" sickening to us all,and emotions sometimes mean its easy to overlook the facts of cases like this,i know that doesn't help matters,but it's not hard to understand people being angry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellers and Whitehead Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Thers been plenty of cases where the police have visited at risk kids and not taken the right action too,as well as doctors,i think its wrong to blame "just" the social workers,but the likes of what was allowed to happen to baby p "is" sickening to us all,and emotions sometimes mean its easy to overlook the facts of cases like this,i know that doesn't help matters,but it's not hard to understand people being angry Agreed P! Just throwing in a SW perspective! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Agreed P! Just throwing in a SW perspective! I know girl,no worries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyHeart Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Social workers are bound to work within the parameters set by law and their institutions....do you think they don't go home wringing their hands and vowing to jack it in next day...I couldnt be a social worker..nursings bad enough...damned if you do..damned if you dont... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyHeart Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 add to that funding cuts to essential 'voluntary' services that support social workers and their underresourced teams...my MIL is chairwoman of Stafford Homestart...a charity that works with disadvantaged families to provide support and model parenting skills...they had to close last year...no funding..which they had to fight for...had to sack paid workers...my MIL knows families...and children will suffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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