Guest guest66832 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I don't mind any team beating Barcelona, they think they have the right to win any game they play and that just gets on my nerves, it's nice to see them humbled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHGOON Posted July 14, 2012 Author Share Posted July 14, 2012 When Liverpool and Porto won the CL they played good football, they weren't the best teams like you say, but Chelsea just defended, it was like the Alamo, but what can you do against Barcelona? well exactly, barca have raised the bar, they would have annihilated the liverpool/milan teams that yr - and to be honest, liverpool were only in that game for 20 minutes or so, 1st half was a masterclass from kaka etc. its the british "grit" that got them through, much like chelski.. i think the best team porto played were deportivo, remember the final was against monaco!! that was a freak yr - and also porto should never have got through, manure had a goal wrongly disallowed which would have got them through - luck again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHGOON Posted July 14, 2012 Author Share Posted July 14, 2012 I don't mind any team beating Barcelona, they think they have the right to win any game they play and that just gets on my nerves, it's nice to see them humbled. agree - but the talent on show!! leave aside messi, just having xavi and iniesta in 1 team?! 2 best midfielders of their generation, both should be put up there with the likes of zidane and platini. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 season almost here :cute: i cannot live without my footy and sky sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Crap teams can always win the cl - Porto were lucky all the best teams knocked themselves out, Liverpool were rubbish, Chelsea were rubbish. But it happens in a knockout tournament. And like I said Chelski have gone out and spent a fortune to get themselves back up to where they want to be.. Rubbish in the final maybe,but not in getting there,we didnt lie down,how many other teams have come back from 3 nil down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 agree - but the talent on show!! leave aside messi, just having xavi and iniesta in 1 team?! 2 best midfielders of their generation, both should be put up there with the likes of zidane and platini. :laugh: what a load of rubbish, they could not lace their boots mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsg2369 Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Good one hoff funny guy like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHGOON Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 :laugh: what a load of rubbish, they could not lace their boots mate. rubbish? really? based on what? my opinion is watching barca week in week out over the last few yrs. before that i watched a lot of zidane at RM in the early 90's, and in no way was ZZ so superior to Iniesta that he wasn't "fit to lace his boots". goal scoring is pretty comparable, so is influence on their team i would say. Iniesta is underrated because of the media gods lapping up messi/ronaldo. who was around in ZZ's day to compare to those 2? ronaldo was still a great, but a shadow of the player he once was, so ZZ was out on his own. as an attacking midfielder, he never scored more than 7/8 goals a season for RM - don't think thats too impressive for a man with his talents..i'm not dissing his greatness, just putting it in perspective in relation to someone like Iniesta, who had just as influential a euro as ZZ did a world cup in 98 (and btw, he wasn't THAT great then either, apart from the final, can think of the likes of romario/baggio as examples of recent (great) players who have had a bigger impact for their teams at the world cup). platini - well...the one thought i remember when i watched the euro 84 tournament, was how overrated i thought platini was - again not dissing his greatness over the course of his career, and certainly i saw a lot less of him than ZZ/Iniesta - but i remember thinking that giresse/tigana were the best players in that team when i watched them, and they were the ones laying things on a plate for platini who had license to roam and do what he did best - score goal. he reminds me a lot of lampard in that he's great goalscorer, but not striker, and so to a certain extent build a team around them. but certainly in goal scoring he was leagues ahead of all other midfielders of any generation. just saying he is hard to compare against the playmakers of barca in that respect. and lastly, i am in no way inferring that the spaniards are better, i just said that (i think) history will put them up there with the likes of the 2 frenchies. put it this way, take those 2 out of the spanish team and i dont think they would have won any of those tournaments...so they were essential to the success of the team that has won the last 3 big tournaments. i rest my case - for now!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHGOON Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 Rubbish in the final maybe,but not in getting there,we didnt lie down,how many other teams have come back from 3 nil down? haha, thought a scouser would pick up on that. actually thats fair, rafa got them playing a certain way in europe didn't he, they were decent to be honest. and as i mentioned, english (scouse?) grit got them back in the match, when milan had a brain freeze for 20m in the 2nd half. even then shevchenko should have won it for them when he missed from 2yds out. it was your yr.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 haha, thought a scouser would pick up on that. actually thats fair, rafa got them playing a certain way in europe didn't he, they were decent to be honest. and as i mentioned, english (scouse?) grit got them back in the match, when milan had a brain freeze for 20m in the 2nd half. even then shevchenko should have won it for them when he missed from 2yds out. it was your yr.. Dont knock grit mate,milan wouldnt have even attempted to get back in it at 3 nil down,Sheva should have won it,but thats what Dudeks for,faith and fan power helped us get back in it. Anyway,they had their revenge in 07 when WE should have won,footy,dont yer just love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHGOON Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 Dont knock grit mate,milan wouldnt have even attempted to get back in it at 3 nil down,Sheva should have won it,but thats what Dudeks for,faith and fan power helped us get back in it.Anyway,they had their revenge in 07 when WE should have won,footy,dont yer just love it! absolutely - hence the point of this thread, I NEED TO TALK FOOTIE....preferably over a few drinks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Ropey HOFF Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 How good players really are from whatever decade they played in can only be assessed on how they performed year in year out and what they won and how they were thought of by their peers. Iniesta to me is a world class player, I think he came second to Messi as the best player in the world, to Messi is the best player ever, just because Maradonna was in a winning Argentina world cup team doesn't to me make him the best player ever, I'm not saying I am right, it's just my opinion. I have never seen any team dominate other top sides like this Barcelona team, AC Milan were the nearest, I love to watch Barcelona and Messi, Iniesta and Xavi and they are as good as any players in the history of the game IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 How good players really are from whatever decade they played in can only be assessed on how they performed year in year out and what they won and how they were thought of by their peers. Iniesta to me is a world class player, I think he came second to Messi as the best player in the world, to Messi is the best player ever, just because Maradonna was in a winning Argentina world cup team doesn't to me make him the best player ever, I'm not saying I am right, it's just my opinion. I have never seen any team dominate other top sides like this Barcelona team, AC Milan were the nearest, I love to watch Barcelona and Messi, Iniesta and Xavi and they are as good as any players in the history of the game IMO. Maradona done it in Europe as well tho,dragged a poor Napoli team up on his own,class player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHGOON Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 How good players really are from whatever decade they played in can only be assessed on how they performed year in year out and what they won and how they were thought of by their peers. Iniesta to me is a world class player, I think he came second to Messi as the best player in the world, to Messi is the best player ever, just because Maradonna was in a winning Argentina world cup team doesn't to me make him the best player ever, I'm not saying I am right, it's just my opinion. I have never seen any team dominate other top sides like this Barcelona team, AC Milan were the nearest, I love to watch Barcelona and Messi, Iniesta and Xavi and they are as good as any players in the history of the game IMO. agree, but the truly great players - rightly or wrongly - are defined by how they perform on the world stage, and of course the biggest of these is the world cup. messi before he retires, has to perform on that stage for his country. its something i think he knows himself, if he wants to put himself on the pedestal with the likes of pele, cruyff, beckenbauer, muller, maradona, ronaldo, zidane, then he needs that, otherwise its the pedestal with di stefano, eusebio, law, greaves, best, dalglish, platini, rummenigge, giggs etc - great players, some as good as or better than the former list, but not feted as highly as they didn't perform/appear on the biggest stage. i don't see that fate befalling messi, but it will be a massive millstone around his neck - but i don't expect that to happen as i reckon he is ready to make the next world cup his.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 agree, but the truly great players - rightly or wrongly - are defined by how they perform on the world stage, and of course the biggest of these is the world cup. messi before he retires, has to perform on that stage for his country. its something i think he knows himself, if he wants to put himself on the pedestal with the likes of pele, cruyff, beckenbauer, muller, maradona, ronaldo, zidane, then he needs that, otherwise its the pedestal with di stefano, eusebio, law, greaves, best, dalglish, platini, rummenigge, giggs etc - great players, some as good as or better than the former list, but not feted as highly as they didn't perform/appear on the biggest stage. i don't see that fate befalling messi, but it will be a massive millstone around his neck - but i don't expect that to happen as i reckon he is ready to make the next world cup his.. Agreed,just as the great teams are measured by what they won in Europe,not domestically Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHGOON Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 Agreed,just as the great teams are measured by what they won in Europe,not domestically apart from the Invincibles, surely!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Ropey HOFF Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 agree, but the truly great players - rightly or wrongly - are defined by how they perform on the world stage, and of course the biggest of these is the world cup. messi before he retires, has to perform on that stage for his country. its something i think he knows himself, if he wants to put himself on the pedestal with the likes of pele, cruyff, beckenbauer, muller, maradona, ronaldo, zidane, then he needs that, otherwise its the pedestal with di stefano, eusebio, law, greaves, best, dalglish, platini, rummenigge, giggs etc - great players, some as good as or better than the former list, but not feted as highly as they didn't perform/appear on the biggest stage. i don't see that fate befalling messi, but it will be a massive millstone around his neck - but i don't expect that to happen as i reckon he is ready to make the next world cup his.. I don't agree with this, simply because the world cup is a lottery, you can go out on a dodgy decision, the best team doesn't always win it, Messi plays for an average Argentinian side, but he has already won the world player of the year 3 times and he will probably play nearly another ten years, I don't recall anyone else winning it 4 times, I might be wrong though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 apart from the Invincibles, surely!! Great side goes without saying,played for draws in the end tho didnt they,Pires "pen" at pompey etc,had some luck as well ash,great achievement albeit with not the greatest amount of points No,i measure greatness in European trophies,thats why madrid are recognised as great,not because of what 32 La ligas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I don't agree with this, simply because the world cup is a lottery, you can go out on a dodgy decision, the best team doesn't always win it, Messi plays for an average Argentinian side, but he has already won the world player of the year 3 times and he will probably play nearly another ten years, I don't recall anyone else winning it 4 times, I might be wrong though. Zidane won it 3 times i think,plus balon d'or for 98 world cup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHGOON Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 I don't agree with this, simply because the world cup is a lottery, you can go out on a dodgy decision, the best team doesn't always win it, Messi plays for an average Argentinian side, but he has already won the world player of the year 3 times and he will probably play nearly another ten years, I don't recall anyone else winning it 4 times, I might be wrong though. i did quantify it by saying rightly or wrongly. its just the way it is. people who saw di stefano play say he was the greatest, ask any normal footie fan and they probably haven't even heard of him, or at least couldn't name which team/country he played for; law/greaves best goalscorers of their generation, more remembered for their punditry while hurst got the plaudits and knighthood; dalglish was top of the game late seventies, the likes of keegan get the euro footballer of the yr awards (and i'm sure all scousers agree dalglish >> keegan!!); rummenigge/platini not as feted as muller/the kaiser/ZZ i would say; and best/eusebio considered by many in the know to be amongst the top 5/10 players of all time - again your man in the street/working for the tabloids would beg to differ.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHGOON Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 luck plays a part in every triumph - arsenal invincibles, van nistelroy misses a pen in the last minute, kanoute goal ruled out even though it was etc...you make your own luck. there you go pablo - i'm not a blinkered gooner!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHGOON Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 btw - getting back to one of the original points, anyone wanting confirmation of how great a job AW has done on the budget he (allegedly) has(n't), take a look at this table of transfer dealings over the last 5 yrs - mans a genius for keeping us in the CL during this time.. http://arsenal.theoffside.com/files/2012/07/Clubs-spending.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Ropey HOFF Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 i did quantify it by saying rightly or wrongly. its just the way it is. people who saw di stefano play say he was the greatest, ask any normal footie fan and they probably haven't even heard of him, or at least couldn't name which team/country he played for; law/greaves best goalscorers of their generation, more remembered for their punditry while hurst got the plaudits and knighthood; dalglish was top of the game late seventies, the likes of keegan get the euro footballer of the yr awards (and i'm sure all scousers agree dalglish >> keegan!!); rummenigge/platini not as feted as muller/the kaiser/ZZ i would say; and best/eusebio considered by many in the know to be amongst the top 5/10 players of all time - again your man in the street/working for the tabloids would beg to differ.. All the players you mention are great players in their own rights, but over the years the main discussion by the top players and football pundits has nearly always been who is the best player ever between Maradonna and Pele, I think Messi comes in to that equation now and I personally think he is the best, I don't need anyone to agree, we all have our own thoughts on this, but if he goes on to win another three world player of the year awards then I think it will be conclusive, but ...... Maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 i did quantify it by saying rightly or wrongly. its just the way it is. people who saw di stefano play say he was the greatest, ask any normal footie fan and they probably haven't even heard of him, or at least couldn't name which team/country he played for; law/greaves best goalscorers of their generation, more remembered for their punditry while hurst got the plaudits and knighthood; dalglish was top of the game late seventies, the likes of keegan get the euro footballer of the yr awards (and i'm sure all scousers agree dalglish >> keegan!!); rummenigge/platini not as feted as muller/the kaiser/ZZ i would say; and best/eusebio considered by many in the know to be amongst the top 5/10 players of all time - again your man in the street/working for the tabloids would beg to differ.. Di Stefano couldnt play in all the world cups,decree by FIFA,he played for 3 countries btw Likewise players like Puskas and the great Hungarian teams which were the original "total footballers" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 btw - getting back to one of the original points, anyone wanting confirmation of how great a job AW has done on the budget he (allegedly) has(n't), take a look at this table of transfer dealings over the last 5 yrs - mans a genius for keeping us in the CL during this time.. http://arsenal.theoffside.com/files/2012/07/Clubs-spending.jpg Just out of curiosity,trophies or CL qualification,what dyer want more?? bit of a straw poll on the present day fan btw... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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