Dual Citizens carrying 651s and Outreach Visits.

[SouthPerthBoy]

A question on behalf of my cousin who lives in the UK.

They are a dual UK/Australian citizen who let their Australian passport lapse around 2010.

They are planning a return 14-day holiday to Australia next year and were hoping to be able to enter the country on an eVisitor 651. And while here submit the passport renewal forms at the Post Office, and have it couriered back to the UK.

I did speak to someone at Home Affairs in Australia who said a dual Australian/UK citizen could enter from the UK as a UK citizen on a 651, but there has been a warning released recently that it could create issues for duals. Has any Australian citizen had a hassle doing this? Can UK passport holders with lapsed Australian passports still enter as a tourist?

My cousin is not keen on traveling to the London Embassy as it's more than a two-day trip for them. Embassy outreach programs for passports elsewhere in the UK are not frequent and appointments typically fill up within a few hours.

[Quoll]

They say that you can't but I'm guessing that if you don't get someone who is assiduous at searching you might slip through the crack. If they're not going until next year they've got plenty of time to renew their passports. My son let his passport lapse in about 2010 and recently he renewed it without any hassle - it was much quicker than he thought it would be. As for a trip to the High Commission (not embassy) - inconvenient and expensive but make a trip of it and enjoy London if you can't get one of the outreach appointments. Much the easiest solution even if it is unpalatable. 

[SouthPerthBoy]

Yes, I suggested to them this would be the best option as it leaves less to chance. They do seem to be tightening up in all areas of foreign travel at present. The High Commission (thanks for the correction) also recommends that passports should be applied for six months before the intended time of travel.

[SouthPerthBoy]

I'm also glad the hear the renewal process was quick. I told my cousin to expect quite a bit of formality, but if it is quick then all the better. I love visiting London, but it's not to everyone's taste. Can anybody else share their experiences of attending a passport renewal appointment in London?

[Quoll]

The only advice I gave my son was to get his pictures taken at Mr Snappy or one of the other high street photographers because they are different sizes from UK PP photos. When I renewed mine in 2019 I arrived early and of the dozen people who were served while I waited, it was just me and one other guy who had the right size pictures. Everyone else had to go and get them taken professionally.

[paulhand]

9 hours ago, SouthPerthBoy said:

did speak to someone at Home Affairs in Australia who said a dual Australian/UK citizen could enter from the UK as a UK citizen on a 651

It is not legally possible for an Australian citizen to hold a visa for Australia. You would need to lie on the 651 application as it won’t allow you to add Australian as a second nationality. There is no legal requirement for an Australian citizen to hold an Australian passport to enter Australia. You can either attempt an ‘undocumented uplift’ allowing plenty of time at the airport for the airline to call the ‘special number’ in Canberra or apply for an Australian Declaratory Visa (which, despite the name, is not actually a visa), but this would likely take longer than applying for a new passport. 

[SouthPerthBoy]

Thanks for the replies. I'll pass all the info on to my cousin.

[rtritudr]

8 hours ago, paulhand said:

It is not legally possible for an Australian citizen to hold a visa for Australia. You would need to lie on the 651 application as it won’t allow you to add Australian as a second nationality. There is no legal requirement for an Australian citizen to hold an Australian passport to enter Australia. You can either attempt an ‘undocumented uplift’ allowing plenty of time at the airport for the airline to call the ‘special number’ in Canberra or apply for an Australian Declaratory Visa (which, despite the name, is not actually a visa), but this would likely take longer than applying for a new passport. 

While not the same as 651 I just checked the ETA app and there is no question about a second nationality, only a second passport.  So if you didn't hold a valid Australian passport, you could quite legally omit that information.

[paulhand]

4 hours ago, rtritudr said:

While not the same as 651 I just checked the ETA app and there is no question about a second nationality, only a second passport.  So if you didn't hold a valid Australian passport, you could quite legally omit that information.

The observation that the question is poorly worded  doesn’t change the fact that an Australian citizen can’t legally hold a visa for travel to Australia. 

[rtritudr]

20 hours ago, paulhand said:

The observation that the question is poorly worded  doesn’t change the fact that an Australian citizen can’t legally hold a visa for travel to Australia. 

So suppose that you managed to obtain an "illegal" visa as a citizen because of the poorly worded question which you have answered honestly as you do not hold a valid Australian passport, what possible sanctions could there be?

[Ken]

2 hours ago, rtritudr said:

So suppose that you managed to obtain an "illegal" visa as a citizen because of the poorly worded question which you have answered honestly as you do not hold a valid Australian passport, what possible sanctions could there be?

That's a very good question considering that the only penalties that seem to exist for lying on a visa application are not issuing or cancelling a visa and not allowing you to apply for another visa for 3 years (or 10 years in the case of a public interest criterion 4020 whatever that is).

[rtritudr]

20 hours ago, Ken said:

That's a very good question considering that the only penalties that seem to exist for lying on a visa application are not issuing or cancelling a visa and not allowing you to apply for another visa for 3 years (or 10 years in the case of a public interest criterion 4020 whatever that is).

I don't think this would even meet the threshold for lying under the Migration Act.  As I said you could reasonably argue that as you did not hold any other valid passport you answered no to the question (not even a question really, just a button that says "add another passport").

[Ken]

2 hours ago, rtritudr said:

I don't think this would even meet the threshold for lying under the Migration Act.  As I said you could reasonably argue that as you did not hold any other valid passport you answered no to the question (not even a question really, just a button that says "add another passport").

It does occur to me though, that if your UK passport number was already in the system (because it was the one you had at the time you applied for citizenship say) shouldn't they automatically know that you weren't eligible and reject your application? Be interesting to know from someone who has tried this.

[Quoll]

1 hour ago, Ken said:

It does occur to me though, that if your UK passport number was already in the system (because it was the one you had at the time you applied for citizenship say) shouldn't they automatically know that you weren't eligible and reject your application? Be interesting to know from someone who has tried this.

I have a friend whose sister and brother in law claim to have got an ETA (twice in the past 3 years) even though they are citizens.  I have no idea how they have managed this - they live in Spain, so no idea if that has anything to do with it. I would imagine that they have been gone so long that their UK pp numbers would have changed at least once since they left. Hence my initial comment about the assiduousness of the checkers of such applications.

[rtritudr]

19 hours ago, Quoll said:

I have a friend whose sister and brother in law claim to have got an ETA (twice in the past 3 years) even though they are citizens.  I have no idea how they have managed this - they live in Spain, so no idea if that has anything to do with it. I would imagine that they have been gone so long that their UK pp numbers would have changed at least once since they left. Hence my initial comment about the assiduousness of the checkers of such applications.

Most ETA applications are presumably issued automatically with no human involvement as the visa is sent almost instantaneously.

[Tychen]

You don't need a valid Australian passport to *enter* Australia if you in fact have citizenship under Australian law. You'd need to explain yourself at the Australian border but they cannot refuse to let you in: https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/entering-leaving-subsite/Pages/Entering/return-documents.aspx . This is the general legal position in most countries.

The tricky part is whether the airline would let you on the flight at the other end - usually they will want to see some proof of your citizenship or a visa. If the eVisa helps to get past that stage, then fine, but they need to be aware that technically it's not legally possible to hold a visa to visit Australia if you are a citizen.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Tychen

[Quoll]

5 hours ago, rtritudr said:

Most ETA applications are presumably issued automatically with no human involvement as the visa is sent almost instantaneously.

Agreed, but you'd think there would be some sort of cyber cross checking otherwise any man and his dog could get a visa.