Lanky Lad Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 31st October and we will have been in Aussie 10 years.... and we can apply for an aussie pension. Meanwhile - having paid outright for how then new build home and our first car here, 4 years ago after a rear ender put my better half off our Holden Astra! Being about to take on day care twice a week for out then 1 year old grandson... we opted for a Kia Sportage. And found we were treated more like dole queue scroungers! The aussies have finance regulation in place to - in my thinking - stop the - moron faction of life, buying cars etc on a finance plan.... and not paying regularly. So the nanny state have set a regulation that basically calculate averages for life essentionals - i.e. rent or mortgage payments ( we don't have either) or Car payments ( at time we had none) Electricity and Gas bills - ( we have 20 solar panels and the last three quarters were $0 bills!) Gas - we pay - ditto all the council tax bill. And finally food bills. We eat well - but not pre made meals from the supermarkets . In short we manage our expenses and life style according to our means from out UK state and one work related pensions - which are less than the Aussie pension when granted. So we had problems at first from Toyota Finance because their computer system uses the amount set by the government regulation as the baseline - and we fell below it! The car dealership... as they seem able - at that time circumvented the regulation and we got the car sorted. Come January 2019, our grandson starts school and we can finally retire in aussie and after clocking up 400k each week in travel to and from our Kids place in Sydney and catering for a dog in the boot and a kids chairs in the back seats and a boot full of spare clothes, dog food and waters bottles...... we thought it would be nice to change our car before its value drops too much. Still awake?? The regulation has - we were told - been "upgraded" - which is politician crap for - " we closed a few loop holes". So having spent a frontal of 9 hours in the Kia showrooms and a Ford showroom ( Ford Escape) - the Ford finance guy started filling in the paperwork.... got to "Income" - we told him, he broke down in tears and and said how sorry he was to hear that poverty still exists in 2018 Australia ( not really) but he was amazed that expat pensioners fall way down on what the aussie pensioners get! As it is out tolled income from three UK pensions - leaves us UNDER the baseline allowed for finance! We went back to Kia and asked if we had problems after the pigeon around 4 years ago with out pensions. The guy said he had not checked because as we not got finance for our Kia on a 7 years term - which we doubled the payments and paid off in 3 years 5 months AND a $450 early closer fee! - but back he came - sorry... we don't seem able to accept your "request for finance" - he said getting official and not the mate we had hours earlier"! So - this post is to hear from other expat pensioners if they have had this issue - and if there is a "workaround" ?? We came over on a Contributory Parent Visa - which in 2008 cost au$27,000 + plus agents fees etc, - back + a au$10,00. ( our aussie agent suggested I cancel my application and agfater arriving on a tourist visa...apply for a spouse visa.... I did and saved £12,000 ! We get the bond back - theoretically, - in December '18 Looking for solutions!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 (edited) The workaround is - don't get finance from a car dealer. Their loans are a rip-off. They're desperate to sell you the loan because they make so much profit from it. When I was in the UK, I was astonished at how common it was for people to buy a car on credit - it's a very expensive way to buy a car, unless it's a company car. Go to your bank and see if they will give you a car loan (which, if you can get it, will be on more favourable terms anyway). They may be more likely to take your real circumstances into account. Otherwise, could you buy second-hand and use your credit cards and cash? Edited September 24, 2018 by Marisawright 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanky Lad Posted September 24, 2018 Author Share Posted September 24, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Marisawright said: The workaround is - don't get finance from a car dealer. Their loans are a rip-off. They're desperate to sell you the loan because they make so much profit from it. When I was in the UK, I was astonished at how common it was for people to buy a car on credit - it's a very expensive way to buy a car, unless it's a company car. Go to your bank and see if they will give you a car loan (which, if you can get it, will be on more favourable terms anyway). They may be more likely to take your real circumstances into account. Otherwise, could you buy second-hand and use your credit cards and cash? Yes, we looked at banks and other loan "outlets" - but facts are facts - i.e. borrow $25,000 from a bank or a car sellers finance company and the interest rate is - usually the same give or take 0.5% . The difference is - a bank wants collateral and that is usually your house - while a car sellers only course on default of payment - is to grab the car back. ( Secured and un-secured loans.) Looking at loan costs from banks and other sources, - all seem to level out around the same figures. Car showrooms often show 0% loans... or as we were offered last week from a Ford dealership.... 0.9% while KIA were offering 4.5% - 7.2%. The Ford Escape- we found was offered at 0.9% - because ( although the sales guy had not mentioned it ) the car was not compliant with a coming law ( 2019) that all cars must be fitted with emergency braking... ( forget the full title) but it seems - anti - tailgating - the model with that brake system fitted was being sold with 7.2% finance. KIA were doing the same. Also car dealers have to pay their supplier a certain set sum per model type - and its usually the supplier rather than the dealer who makes "special" offer's - but sometimes the amount of cars sold at a given dealership can also create a situation where if the dealer is down on quota... he can offer at least one vehicle at a bigger sales price discount - lose money on that deal... but get the full "promotion" bulk discount in cars sales achieved! In general from UK experiences in home and company business dealings with banks, - is to avoid them for loans. Banks can be uptight and send out threats quick time. On the other option - a car dealership finance company ( Kia in Oz use Toyota Finance - or at least our Kia dealer does!) from others in the UK I found that if an employee was sacked or made redundant, hit by a bus and hospitalised etc,. the finance company will assess the problem and come to a compromise. They don't want another used car to dump and in doing so write of the balance of the loan. ( unless they cannot get a return of the loan amount). While we have not failed to pay off in full and on time all our previous car loans - I have to say that use of the aussie motorways and main roads - is not always a safe or pleasant experience and with a seeming increase in useless drivers - there is not guarantee that s**t will happen due to idiots and write off the car and hospitalise on for both of us! That said sitting watching TV at night can often end in having a ute or crazed P plater nicked car in your settee. And should the happen... I would not like to be dealing with a bank! In posting I was not really inquiring about loan options - but looking for ex Pat pensioners on UK pensions only funding in Oz. feel sure my wife and I cannot be the only ones in Aussie to have come across this situation. And while the above all relates to cars and finance.... it can and does apply to buying a 50inch TV from Hardly Normal or any item being purchased using credit companies. Edited September 24, 2018 by Lanky Lad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramot Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 (edited) Can’t really help. When you say your income is only from UK pension/pensions? Without prying did you mean you only receive the state pension? We are retirees in Oz, our only income is from UK, we bought a new car 2 years ago with no problem on finance from Honda, and I asked my husband if he could remember if our income had to be declared but he can’t remember, I only know we had no problem. We have found on other occasions that because we are ‘outside the norm’ it has presented difficulties, but in the 1 5 years here never really had a problem buying anything and we don’t even have PR. Good luck, know how frustrating it can be here. Edited September 24, 2018 by ramot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanky Lad Posted September 24, 2018 Author Share Posted September 24, 2018 44 minutes ago, ramot said: Can’t really help. When you say your income is only from UK pension/pensions? Without prying did you mean you only receive the state pension? We are retirees in Oz, our only income is from UK, we bought a new car 2 years ago with no problem on finance from Honda, and I asked my husband if he could remember if our income had to be declared but he can’t remember, I only know we had no problem. We have found on other occasions that because we are ‘outside the norm’ it has presented difficulties, but in the 1 5 years here never really had a problem buying anything and we don’t even have PR. Good luck, know how frustrating it can be here. Hi, Yes as the Aussies say... we are "self funded" - on UK pensions only. The criteria seems to be - that the "new" amended finance regulation... uses the aussie minimum aged pension as the baseline. It appears to be laid out to prevent the tow rags who buy on finance and end up owing more than they can pay - so don't bother! We are told the criteria is created from an average of all normal household expenses i.e. utility bills, council bills, rent or margate payments, food bills ( assessed it seems - on how many people are in the house!) and any other items purchased on credit. IF income falls below that theoretical figure.... the finance house cannot accept the purchase. ADDED to that - they ignore credit ratings and there is no avenue to appeal! i.e. we own outright or home, we own our KIA - having doubled the payments to knock it down from 7 years finance and paid it off is the just over 3 years. We also have 20 solar panels and not paid any electric for three quarters. None of these + factors can be appealed! ADDED to that, the two above car dealerships will not or cannot accept bank statements that show our pensions paid in from UK - monthly! The legislation based on aussie pension - which can be stopped by the sitting government - basically at will on any change of policy - unlike the UK which is paid until death! In applying for the aussie pension - for which we are entitled as is any other immigrant who has been permanent resident for 10 years - we were asked to provide proof of identity. One proof is citizenship certificates - I asked if our Aussie Citizen 2nd Class was acceptable. Looking confused, the lady said... there is no 2nd class. I replied that there was indeed because we are citizens, with a passport that states we are Australian subject - but we NEVER get the same allowances or treatment as "born here" aussies! Ignoring that my wives sub class 143 parent visa cost $27,000 plus and that she paid a $10,000 bond held for 10 years and now Centrelink is pigging us around to get it back". That we OWN our home unlike the majority of Aussies - we have ZERO debt. Today we went to our local MP his staff are clueless but took notes and said they will bring it to his attention! I am not holding my breath in anticipation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Lanky Lad said: - I asked if our Aussie Citizen 2nd Class was acceptable. Looking confused, the lady said... there is no 2nd class. I replied that there was indeed because we are citizens, with a passport that states we are Australian subject - but we NEVER get the same allowances or treatment as "born here" aussies! If that's the case then I must be a 2nd class British citizen, because I had exactly the same problems when I returned to the UK after living in Australia for thirty years. Not only could I not qualify for any loan of any sort, I was regarded as too much of a risk for a rental property - I had to pay six months rent in advance. Not only that, but I could only get the most basic bank account, with no interest payable, no overdraft facility and no credit card. And yes, I had substantial assets - as you've found in Australia, that cuts no ice at all. On investigating, I found that it would take several years before that would change. Sh!t happens when you move countries, in whichever direction. That's life. Apart from this credit issue, in what way are you being treated differently from "born here' Aussies? You're about to apply for the Australian pension, you're covered by Medicare, you've got a Seniors Card. So what if you paid $27,000 for the visa - that's going to be easily swallowed up by your Medicare costs for the rest of your life (even if you're in good health now, dying is expensive you know). That's why you're asked to pay. As an Australian taxpayer, I think it's only fair. Edited September 24, 2018 by Marisawright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanky Lad Posted September 24, 2018 Author Share Posted September 24, 2018 18 minutes ago, Marisawright said: If that's the case then I must be a 2nd class British citizen, because I had exactly the same problems when I returned to the UK after living in Australia for thirty years. Not only could I not qualify for any loan of any sort, I was regarded as too much of a risk for a rental property - I had to pay six months rent in advance. Not only that, but I could only get the most basic bank account, with no interest payable, no overdraft facility and no credit card. And yes, I had substantial assets - as you've found in Australia, that cuts no ice at all. On investigating, I found that it would take several years before that would change. Sh!t happens when you move countries, in whichever direction. That's life. Apart from this credit issue, in what way are you being treated differently from "born here' Aussies? You're about to apply for the Australian pension, you're covered by Medicare, you've got a Seniors Card. So what if you paid $27,000 for the visa - that's going to be easily swallowed up by your Medicare costs for the rest of your life (even if you're in good health now, dying is expensive you know). That's why you're asked to pay. As an Australian taxpayer, I think it's only fair. As I wrote earlier - my post was intended to discover if other " senior " members had faced this same issue.... not to invite discussion - or argument - on any other subject. But thanks for your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramot Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 21 minutes ago, Lanky Lad said: As I wrote earlier - my post was intended to discover if other " senior " members had faced this same issue.... not to invite discussion - or argument - on any other subject. But thanks for your input. out of interest when did they bring in the new regulations? What is the amount of the minimum aged pension, will be useful for us to know, and pass on to others in the same situation. We meet up regularly with others on our visa and will ask anyone else has had problems when we meet next month. Should have been this Thursday but had to slip it a month. We are finally in the queue for the CPV, and although we would rather not pay the approx. $100,000 we do accept that we have never paid any tax in Australia so do understand the charge. You were lucky to only pay for one of you, as I understand they closed that loophole quite a few years ago. Would be interesting to know what conditions UK imposes if there is a parent visa there. We won’t decide whether to stay on our visa or take up the CPV depending how long we wait for it and our age. Might just not be worth it, as the it has blown out from 1 year to who knows how long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanky Lad Posted September 25, 2018 Author Share Posted September 25, 2018 10 hours ago, ramot said: out of interest when did they bring in the new regulations? What is the amount of the minimum aged pension, will be useful for us to know, and pass on to others in the same situation. We meet up regularly with others on our visa and will ask anyone else has had problems when we meet next month. Should have been this Thursday but had to slip it a month. We are finally in the queue for the CPV, and although we would rather not pay the approx. $100,000 we do accept that we have never paid any tax in Australia so do understand the charge. You were lucky to only pay for one of you, as I understand they closed that loophole quite a few years ago. Would be interesting to know what conditions UK imposes if there is a parent visa there. We won’t decide whether to stay on our visa or take up the CPV depending how long we wait for it and our age. Might just not be worth it, as the it has blown out from 1 year to who knows how long. It appears there was a Royal Commission early ( June?) this year - to put place restrictions on banks offering loans - knowing that the applicant is either feeding false info - being aided to provide false information and who in really terms cannot afford to repay the loan. It then cascades down to all sources of loans for any item. Australia being what it is - a land where immigration is a major factor - and a surplus of ( alleged) low educated who cannot or are unwilling to find work AND those who get loans and then prefer to go to Bali 3 times a year and fail to pay the car loans ( my words not the commissions!) That being so, it appears that a baseline income was decided - which appears to be the amount paid as the minimum paid via the Australian aged pension. I have no idea what that is and appears - as far as UK immigrant pensioners are concerned - our rate does not change from the day we flew out to Aussie - and our at least seems to be below the aussie rate. Poms eligible to an Aussie pension - no matter what the costs or situation of granted visa's - will need to submit a claim giving all the financial details requested *- if the bottom line is LESS than Aussie pension rates.. the UK pensions will be made up to aussie rates. Which is a long standing arrangement the two governments made donkeys years ago. "Would be interesting to know what conditions UK imposes if there is a parent visa there. " Not sure what you mean with this... the UK pays any and all your STATE pension as funded via your NHS contributions. Work superannuations and private funded pensions are not state responsibility...as far as I know ..and aussie see all and any income as just that and IF you applied for an aussie pension - which you can AFTER being permanently resident for 10 years.... an aussie pension application is granted on the above ( self finance) basis. We originally applied via a UK agent for CPV sub class 143 - which at that time meant au$27000 + $10,000 bond for wife as main applicant and au$27000 + au$4000 bond for me.We saw on PIO - an aussie agent in Sydney and contacted him ( Eric?????) who pointed out that we could operate within the immigration rules and IF I cancelled my CPV... and applied for a spouse visa - which I did and it was about au$1800 or so all in with fee's! It did need me to get an air ticket to NZ to cater for a 90 days tourist visa and when I applied I was given an immediate bridging visa - and I later got a refund on the air flight! It took - in the UK - just over 2 years from application to getting the visa - plus the 2 years we had to wait - which seems to give a period to allow - our kids to find stable employment and accomodation. We applied early 2004 after an over christmas recce to Sydney - flew out 3 weeks after visa granted and cleared the house sale etc 31st October 2008. Don't suppose you and your mates are on the NSW Central Coast??? I am really surprised that there are not more UK pensioners - who do not yet qualify for an aussie top up.... having problems. Toyota Finance appear to use the aussie ( state) pension lowest rate - as their baseline. We meet up regularly with others on our visa ??????? if you want any "private " info.... PM me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramot Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 By UK parent visa I meant overseas parents wanting a visa to move and join their children in UK. We are all on the retirement 410 visa that was stopped in 2005. There is a dwindling group of us on the Sunshine Coast and we meet for lunch every few months for a good chat and see if there is anything new. I did run the idea past a MA a few years ago of your strategy of CPV and then partner visa but was sadly assured this is no longer possible. Sad as I thought it was a great way to do only pay for one of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanky Lad Posted September 25, 2018 Author Share Posted September 25, 2018 14 hours ago, ramot said: out of interest when did they bring in the new regulations? What is the amount of the minimum aged pension, will be useful for us to know, and pass on to others in the same situation. We meet up regularly with others on our visa and will ask anyone else has had problems when we meet next month. Should have been this Thursday but had to slip it a month. We are finally in the queue for the CPV, and although we would rather not pay the approx. $100,000 we do accept that we have never paid any tax in Australia so do understand the charge. You were lucky to only pay for one of you, as I understand they closed that loophole quite a few years ago. Would be interesting to know what conditions UK imposes if there is a parent visa there. We won’t decide whether to stay on our visa or take up the CPV depending how long we wait for it and our age. Might just not be worth it, as the it has blown out from 1 year to who knows how long. Not sure what you mean by new regulations...... The problem we face and presumably any expat who falls foul of - what seems to have been implemented by a Royal Commission, assembled to discuss and remedy indiscretions among the banking industry - i.e. allowing or suggesting that a person earning - say - $2000 a months to stay they get paid $8000 a month - and seemingly not seek proof of income. There also seems to be new regulation NOT in favour of banks and any others who offer car purchase loans....it seems that if a buyer defaults payments... the finance office cannot take the car back. But I only have word of mouth. Obviously - if this is fact... it seems logical the finance company and banks - will want more real proof of actual income and - that seems to be involving us. UK pension never have sent out any update info... coz it does not apply to us - so everything we have is around 8 years old! Two car dealerships finance offices - will not accept bank statements as proof of regally pension receipts! And typically they want everything valid for a few previous months to prevent somebody taking a (bad ) job.... getting a loan and then packing the job in! The spouse visa was still an option when I applied in 2009 - it saved us about £12,000 ! I don't think the UK makes any stipulations about visa's of any class.. for outgoing citizens. They are only concerned in keeping scammers out! The CPV 143 which my wife obtained, allows permanent residence - we had medicare cover - BUT in hardship - the aussie government will not assist financially in any way for at least 2 years. Don't know anymore coz we never had call to "test the system". Not knowing your visa class - I cannot suggest anything, we have a dutch friend who - originally she and her Scottish husband came over from Africa. had some form of retirement visa - which required than to proof every 4 years they had access to - I think - au$670,000 in cash or assets other than their home. Keith died 2 years back and she is still here - so not sure if anything changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemesis Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 25 minutes ago, Lanky Lad said: Not sure what you mean by new regulations...... The problem we face and presumably any expat who falls foul of - what seems to have been implemented by a Royal Commission, assembled to discuss and remedy indiscretions among the banking industry - i.e. allowing or suggesting that a person earning - say - $2000 a months to stay they get paid $8000 a month - and seemingly not seek proof of income. There also seems to be new regulation NOT in favour of banks and any others who offer car purchase loans....it seems that if a buyer defaults payments... the finance office cannot take the car back. But I only have word of mouth. Obviously - if this is fact... it seems logical the finance company and banks - will want more real proof of actual income and - that seems to be involving us. UK pension never have sent out any update info... coz it does not apply to us - so everything we have is around 8 years old! Two car dealerships finance offices - will not accept bank statements as proof of regally pension receipts! And typically they want everything valid for a few previous months to prevent somebody taking a (bad ) job.... getting a loan and then packing the job in! The spouse visa was still an option when I applied in 2009 - it saved us about £12,000 ! I don't think the UK makes any stipulations about visa's of any class.. for outgoing citizens. They are only concerned in keeping scammers out! The CPV 143 which my wife obtained, allows permanent residence - we had medicare cover - BUT in hardship - the aussie government will not assist financially in any way for at least 2 years. Don't know anymore coz we never had call to "test the system". Not knowing your visa class - I cannot suggest anything, we have a dutch friend who - originally she and her Scottish husband came over from Africa. had some form of retirement visa - which required than to proof every 4 years they had access to - I think - au$670,000 in cash or assets other than their home. Keith died 2 years back and she is still here - so not sure if anything changed. Just for info - you were probably one of the last to be able to use the Spouse Visa in that way. The loophole was closed several years ago, from memory I think around 2010-11. And there is no Parent Visa option for the UK, not in the same way that there is for oz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramot Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Lanky Lad said: Not knowing your visa class - I cannot suggest anything, we have a dutch friend who - originally she and her Scottish husband came over from Africa. had some form of retirement visa - which required than to proof every 4 years they had access to - I think - au$670,000 in cash or assets other than their home. Keith died 2 years back and she is still here - so not sure if anything changed. As mentioned in my previous post we are on the 410 retirement visa, nothing like the one you mention, renewable every 10 years and not much cost involved. It was stopped for new applicants in 2005. We don’t need any suggestions, but thank you anyway. We either stay on the 410 retirement visa for ever or take up the parent visa when it’s finally an option as it’s now taking so long to get, make the decision at an unknown date in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanky Lad Posted September 25, 2018 Author Share Posted September 25, 2018 Things seem to have shifted from the intent of my post... I was really hoping other "pensioners" with UK pensions - have had similar problems with the finance companies and the "New" conditions and income requirements - which seem to stem from a Royal Commission earlier this years and irregularities in income when granting loans. Its looking like we are the only couple on UK pensions who have come across this! So far I cannot discover if other loan / finance companies - outside the motor industry are bound by the Commission findings and recommendations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramot Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 2 hours ago, Lanky Lad said: Things seem to have shifted from the intent of my post... I was really hoping other "pensioners" with UK pensions - have had similar problems with the finance companies and the "New" conditions and income requirements - which seem to stem from a Royal Commission earlier this years and irregularities in income when granting loans. Its looking like we are the only couple on UK pensions who have come across this! So far I cannot discover if other loan / finance companies - outside the motor industry are bound by the Commission findings and recommendations. Just a thought it might be better to post in the family/partners thread. I only picked your post up by chance and there are always new parents moving here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanky Lad Posted September 26, 2018 Author Share Posted September 26, 2018 15 hours ago, ramot said: Just a thought it might be better to post in the family/partners thread. I only picked your post up by chance and there are always new parents moving here Good Idea.... thanks - will do.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.