Stung Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Is there any PAM 3 links here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stung Posted February 16, 2018 Author Share Posted February 16, 2018 Here is one, but note the date!https://www.dropbox.com/s/xr3itps2tu3vf5u/820 PAM3.docx?dl=0 Will advise Shed 3 persons a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raul Senise Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 The link you have posted is extremely old (2014) and very much out of date. Do not use such outdated information for guidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stung Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 With respect Raul, "but note the date" was very clear. I do not have the current $700 or $800 subscription service to the current version that you are required to have, so obviously I can not tell if any part of it has changed - hence note the date. With very few minor changes all of the application forms, information booklets and checklists supplied by the immigration department have not changed since 2014, and since the general public don't generally know or have access to PAM 3 it is certainly good information for them to know about. As you know PAM 3 is the immigration departments policy/interpretation or legislation at a particular time and is not enforceable, but good information to have. It can also be helpful (and harmful) for DYI applicants to see the way types of thinks can get considered, often in the complete opposite to what would normally be expected. PAM 3 and its associated products in its annual subscription service is one of the main benefits of using a Registered Migration Agent, but it must be used in conjunction with the current legislation and the experience of a Registered Migration Agent, and I acknowledge you do have around a dozen years of that experience. In that particular version of the 820 PAM 3. I find it useful that it clearly makes avoidance of not having to meet Schedule 3 desirable, and if you do need to meet it seek professional help without delay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemesis Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Stung said: With respect Raul, "but note the date" was very clear. I do not have the current $700 or $800 subscription service to the current version that you are required to have, so obviously I can not tell if any part of it has changed - hence note the date. With very few minor changes all of the application forms, information booklets and checklists supplied by the immigration department have not changed since 2014, and since the general public don't generally know or have access to PAM 3 it is certainly good information for them to know about. As you know PAM 3 is the immigration departments policy/interpretation or legislation at a particular time and is not enforceable, but good information to have. It can also be helpful (and harmful) for DYI applicants to see the way types of thinks can get considered, often in the complete opposite to what would normally be expected. PAM 3 and its associated products in its annual subscription service is one of the main benefits of using a Registered Migration Agent, but it must be used in conjunction with the current legislation and the experience of a Registered Migration Agent, and I acknowledge you do have around a dozen years of that experience. In that particular version of the 820 PAM 3. I find it useful that it clearly makes avoidance of not having to meet Schedule 3 desirable, and if you do need to meet it seek professional help without delay. Sorry, I have to agree with Raul, its dangerous to post an official document that is very out-of-date. The 820 is changed a lot since 2014. Although you said 'note the date' people will assume you just want them to note it, in the majority of cases they will not realise that such a brief remark actually means 'this has been superceded and the info is no longer current' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stung Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Nemesis it was an official document. Unless we have access to the current subscription it is impossible to tell if it is still current, or in fact small parts out of date or all of it. To me it seems several parts are still current. Whilst rare it is and has been the case that people have applied under that exact official policy advice but be eventually processed under new official policy advice. From memory and I wont check the exact date of that 2014 policy, but lets agree it is 4 years old. That's half of some current processing times average. So if that is way out of date and it changes frequently, many applications will be processed on "out of date" documentation by the time they are processed. On the matter of change of the 820 since 2014, can you elaborate? I don't recall much other than the big one recently - but we might consider change in different ways. (the main I saw was the same sex change). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barker Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 If you let me know what you're after, I can pull it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stung Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, barker said: If you let me know what you're after, I can pull it up. Number of changes to the "820" PAM 3 section since 2014 and the dates of change would be great to know. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barker Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 I'll see what I can do it might be tricky as each individual migration stack update has its own change log, and it's been changed many times over the last 4 years. LegendCOM is down at the moment until tomorrow but I let you know what I come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stung Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Understand, I know it is not a simple task. Strange LegendCom say that it is a 24/7 access point. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stung Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Might be a good time to add, I have no intention of or have in process, any visa application/s. At most I may invite a person on a Visitor Visa in the future. I had an issue or two with past family stream visa applications and visitor visa applications. Some I sorted myself, others with very good registered migration agents. All with varied and opposite results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemesis Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Stung said: Nemesis it was an official document. Unless we have access to the current subscription it is impossible to tell if it is still current, or in fact small parts out of date or all of it. To me it seems several parts are still current. Whilst rare it is and has been the case that people have applied under that exact official policy advice but be eventually processed under new official policy advice. From memory and I wont check the exact date of that 2014 policy, but lets agree it is 4 years old. That's half of some current processing times average. So if that is way out of date and it changes frequently, many applications will be processed on "out of date" documentation by the time they are processed. On the matter of change of the 820 since 2014, can you elaborate? I don't recall much other than the big one recently - but we might consider change in different ways. (the main I saw was the same sex change). If you cannot be sure that an official document is 100% current then you need a better warning on it than just 'check the date' - or better still don't post it at all. People may base their decisions on it believing it to be still current. An agent has commented above,note what he said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stung Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 RMA's don't like PAM's to be public knowledge. I note his very brief comment with no actual info if it is actual out of date by a year reference or any other notation. But another member seems keen to supply the "out of date" parameters on that such post. With due respect Nemesis Registered Agents are not always correct - but often are. So if said RMA wishes to disagree with me then let them, they are more qualified than you, and I will answer their questions happily. I certainly respect all RMA's But you are not one but a 6 dot member from what I see. I also will guess never seen a 820 PAM 3 before current or not - but that's normal for most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barker Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) I can't be bothered to go back in the stacks and give you each revision. Here's the current excerpt. I'm guessing the RMAS will be triggered. I am not an RMA just to clarify. As always consult your local migration agent with any questions. (I feel like this is one of those "talk to your doctor" disclaimers) BTW, did you know that you can access LegendCOM at any state public library for free! Obviously that's not how I access it, but it's free during business hours. Edited February 17, 2018 by barker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stung Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 Cheers barker. I was aware it was available from some libraries free of charge. Don't think the RMA's will be bothered with what you posted all links go to a immiacount login and you need to be authorized for LedgendCOM to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raul Senise Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Hi Stung, I was just pointing out that the information you posted was very out of date and potentially dangerous, as much of it was no longer relevant. Not sure where you get the notion that "RMA's don't like PAM's to be public knowledge". Be mindful that your argument to Nemesis about Policy changing during the processing period is not correct. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raul Senise Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 @barker again you have published Information which you do not have the legal right to do. As previously when you where publishing MIA news letters without permission, you are now publishing LegendCom information in breach of the Terms and Conditions of use. Again, you probably don't care as you are not the LegendCom subscriber who pays for membership, but I wonder if your employer knows that you are accessing their LegondComn account and using it in breach of the terms and conditions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrussell Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Leaving aside the issue of a possible breach of copyright, it can be noted that PAM3 has errors in which DOHA policy conflicts with legislation and the construction placed upon policy (and legislation) by some ministerial delegates is at odds with binding judicial decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barker Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Raul Senise said: @barker again you have published Information which you do not have the legal right to do. As previously when you where publishing MIA news letters without permission, you are now publishing LegendCom information in breach of the Terms and Conditions of use. Again, you probably don't care as you are not the LegendCom subscriber who pays for membership, but I wonder if your employer knows that you are accessing their LegondComn account and using it in breach of the terms and conditions. So the first document that Stung posted was out of date, and the one I posted is now inappropriate to post because of copyright. I am sensing a bit of credence to Stung's theory that you really have a problem with information in the public domain. Need I mention again that anyone with a pulse can access LegendCOM for FREE and copy this information from their local library. Also, amusingly you will find that Westly has posted many long excerpts from the PAM3 and LEGENDcom himself over the years. Edited February 19, 2018 by barker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raul Senise Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 5 minutes ago, barker said: Need I mention again that anyone with a pulse can access LegendCOM for FREE and copy this information from their local library. Just highlighting that as Agents we must work within the bounds of the Law and are bound by ethical standards of a code of conduct. You on the other hand provide Immigration advice and are not bound by any legal or ethical limitations and are not accountable for your advice or actions. "5.3 Access for libraries, educational institutions, government agencies and non-profit organisations If you are a library in an educational institution, or represent a library in an educational institution, then your licence may be used by library staff, currently enrolled students, faculty staff and visiting scholars while performing duties for the educational institution. If you are, or represent, a public library, a library in an educational institution, a government agency or a non-profit institution allowing public access to data and information, then, subject to clause 6, you may provide public access to and retrieval of data and information through the services for walk-in public users while on site. Public library subscriptions cannot be used for commercial purposes and the system may only be accessed while on site. You will limit such use to the customary services provided to patrons and you will not re-distribute the materials retrieved from the Services or provide access to the Services to other libraries or third parties either directly or indirectly, unless specifically authorised by the Commonwealth." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barker Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Raul Senise said: Just highlighting that as Agents we must work within the bounds of the Law and are bound by ethical standards of a code of conduct. You on the other hand provide Immigration advice and are not bound by any legal or ethical limitations and are not accountable for your advice or actions. Before you go impugning me, I suggest you have a search on this site for all the other RMAs who are posting direct cuts from legendcom. Also those terms say "If you are, or represent, a public library, a library in an educational institution, a government agency or a non-profit institution allowing public access to data" A user using the service is not bound by the conditions. The library is. Since we are getting quote happy today, I most certainly DO NOT provide immigration advice, please note the following from the DIBP site in regards to the definition of advice. You should look at some of the people posting on this site, and then tell me again that I'm posting advice. Like I said before, I always say consult an RMA. Anyways, I would like to be excluded from this narrative. Have a good day. " Activities not regarded as immigration assistance include: clerical work to prepare (or help prepare) an application or other document. The term clerical work includes, but is not be limited to: typing answers into an application/document writing answers into an application/document translating answers into an application/document photocopying an application/document collating documents indicating where certain information should go in an application form paying the Visa Application Charge physically lodging an application posting or emailing an application/document. providing translation or interpretation services to help prepare an application or other document advising another person that the other person must apply for a visa passing on information produced by a third person, without giving substantial comment on or explanation of the information. " Edited February 19, 2018 by barker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raul Senise Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 4 minutes ago, barker said: Before you go impugning me, I suggest you have a search on this site for all the other RMAs who are posting direct cuts from legendcom. Agents are allowed to, as Licence holders of the product. You on the other hand, not being a Licence holder of LegendCom are not allowed to. If you truly believe that you are doing nothing wrong, stop hiding behind your anonymity and post under your real name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerberus1 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 After seeking clarification this morning from the LEGENDcom Help Desk at the Dept of Home Affairs, I've removed content from this thread in accordance with the guidance issued below: Quote Provision 6.2.2 of the LEGENDcom Copyright conditions states that ‘The licence granted under clause 6 does not include the right to: (a) publish, disseminate, adapt, modify or commercialise any of the Copyright Material; or (b) sub-license any of the rights granted under this clause 6.’ In this scenario, the forum member could be deemed to be in breach of Copyright, which may result in the suspension or termination of their User Account and further legal remedy sought (See 6.3 Breach of Copyright). To avoid any potential adverse legal consequences, the forum member must (a) remove the content; or (b) if they are indeed a registered Migration Agent, clearly and identifiably attribute the material to LEGENDcom without removing any copyright or credit notice included in the original material.” 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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