Tina2 Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Thought others may be interested in this report. One of the best I have seen, shows just how far behind Aus is in its thinking. http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2014/07/07/4038488.htm Combine the above with this and you have to start to think Abbott is totally on the wrong path. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-08/abbott-endangering-future-on-climate-lord-deben/5582902 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flybyknight Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 this is the perfect thread for this. a lesson in political spin, all the data shows the carbon tax has made a massive dent in Australia's carbon output, but as a minister I need to show it failed hmmmmm..... http://reneweconomy.com.au/2014/will-the-real-greg-hunt-please-stand-up-52286 the funny thing is, even if coal power could be produced for free in Australia, it would still be more expensive than solar! it's ok though, the public will fund it with handouts! Yay, the Australian people are great and good to their 1% also, for those wishing to get some money off their bill, the tax represents less than 5% of the annual bill (about $50-60 of the average). these bills will also rise well above inflation if the large scale wind and solar systems aren't commissioned (they wont be if the RET is abolished) and they are the only correcting factor in wholesale energy prices. this will lead over the next few years to higher energy prices! the average home-owner is far better off keeping the green energy right there, pinning down prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Interesting that the Japanese leader is over here at the moment organising to buy lots of gas and coal. Since the tsunami has shut down their nuclear power stations and they unlikely to be put back into service where do you think they are going to get their power from. Unfortunately back to coal and gas fired power stations. If solar was the answer they would be going that way. Solar is great in a country like Aus but it's still expensive and the greenhouse gases and pollutants that go into making solar panels is still very high. Not saying it's a bad idea and they should be a lot cheaper in Aus. Most people would have them then without a doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flybyknight Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 the difference with solar is that it gives back, from the moment it's running it creates no more pollution, anything that burns, cars powerstations etc just keep on pouring out the pollution. in direct comparison over the lifetime of the panel, the footprint is bugger all. china have built a huge solar plant at fukushima to compensate for the loss of the plant, they are in the process of ramping up the arrays and storage solutions, these things take time to build though so as you mention coal is a easy stopgap measure. no sane modern government will consider coal a long term proposition these days. from wikipedia.... [TABLE=class: wikitable sortable jquery-tablesorter] Lifecycle greenhouse gas emissions by electricity source.[2][TR] [TH=class: headerSort, bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center]Technology[/TH] [TH=class: headerSort, bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center]Description[/TH] [TH=class: headerSort, bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center]50th percentile (g CO 2 /kWhe)[/TH] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Hydroelectric[/TD] [TD]reservoir[/TD] [TD]4[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Wind[/TD] [TD]onshore[/TD] [TD]12[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Nuclear[/TD] [TD]various generation II reactor types[/TD] [TD]16[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Biomass[/TD] [TD]various[/TD] [TD]18[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Solar thermal[/TD] [TD]parabolic trough[/TD] [TD]22[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Geothermal[/TD] [TD]hot dry rock[/TD] [TD]45[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Solar PV[/TD] [TD]Polycrystaline silicon[/TD] [TD]46[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Natural gas[/TD] [TD]various combined cycle turbines without scrubbing[/TD] [TD]469[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Coal[/TD] [TD]various generator types without scrubbing[/TD] [TD]1001[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] carbon capture and storage is incompatible with Australia's aging coal plants, its just a nice get out for the government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina2 Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 The bottom line in all this is just about every country is moving down the renewable path except Aus and Canada. If making solar panels cause pollution then we need to work on ways of making it cleaner and more cost effective,( lots of job opportunities ?) Aus cant just bury its head in the sand. What we do effects other countries, and with many moving to solar if we keep moving backwards, other countries will not be happy and it will be interesting to see what happens then. Less trade with Aus until we clean up our environment ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 The bottom line in all this is just about every country is moving down the renewable path except Aus and Canada. If making solar panels cause pollution then we need to work on ways of making it cleaner and more cost effective,( lots of job opportunities ?) Aus cant just bury its head in the sand. What we do effects other countries, and with many moving to solar if we keep moving backwards, other countries will not be happy and it will be interesting to see what happens then. Less trade with Aus until we clean up our environment ? You mean apart from buying our coal, gas, iron ore, uranium, beef, lamb, wine? The bottom line is we only think of the here and now. Most people would love to see the carbon tax go as it will save them (potentially) a few hundred dollars a year. There's another thread on this forum discussing how good that would be. People give lip service to changing as soon as they see it's going to affect their standard of living. Even Al Gore appeared on a stage next to Clive Palmer and must have felt really embarrassed to be there, at least I hope he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina2 Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 You mean apart from buying our coal, gas, iron ore, uranium, beef, lamb, wine? The bottom line is we only think of the here and now. Most people would love to see the carbon tax go as it will save them (potentially) a few hundred dollars a year. There's another thread on this forum discussing how good that would be. People give lip service to changing as soon as they see it's going to affect their standard of living. Even Al Gore appeared on a stage next to Clive Palmer and must have felt really embarrassed to be there, at least I hope he did. Yep thats right, we have done it to other countries admitedly in different situations, boycotting, and putting in place trade restrictions until they stop doing what ever it is that is offencive to other countries and that could well happen here. Palmers plan to do "nothing" unless other countries do "something" is just plain silly, other countries are doing things far beyond a ETS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flybyknight Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 that Lord Deban interview is great, she's trying her level best to counter his evidence but she doesn't have the ammo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Yep thats right, we have done it to other countries admitedly in different situations, boycotting, and putting in place trade restrictions until they stop doing what ever it is that is offencive to other countries and that could well happen here. Palmers plan to do "nothing" unless other countries do "something" is just plain silly, other countries are doing things far beyond a ETS. I agree. Palmer is just out for himself and what affects him and his business interests. That's the only reason he went into politics. Trouble is the majority of people will say what needs to be done and back up to the hilt suggestions, but when they realise it's going to cost them another $500 a year (or whatever) then they don't follow through. Just the way it is and nothing will happen until we see some catastrophic events that prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that climate change is actually happening and we can do something about it. Until then nothing much will change. Even the countries that set themselves targets, so they appear to be doing something, very rarely make those targets. If they do they fudge the figures to make out that they've managed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Saw this headline today, interesting read. [h=1]Welcome to London – the most toxic town on the planet[/h] Oxford Street's more polluted than Beijing and the sky's alive with cranes. Just what kind of city is Boris Johnson creating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bibbs Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Even Al Gore appeared on a stage next to Clive Palmer and must have felt really embarrassed to be there, at least I hope he did. I hope he feels more embarrassed by the total sham that 'inconvenient truth' film was. Okay, we get that you think there is an issue. You don't need to make stuff up to support your position, because when it's shown to be wrong, your entire argument goes with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina2 Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 I agree. Palmer is just out for himself and what affects him and his business interests. That's the only reason he went into politics. Trouble is the majority of people will say what needs to be done and back up to the hilt suggestions, but when they realise it's going to cost them another $500 a year (or whatever) then they don't follow through. Just the way it is and nothing will happen until we see some catastrophic events that prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that climate change is actually happening and we can do something about it. Until then nothing much will change. Even the countries that set themselves targets, so they appear to be doing something, very rarely make those targets. If they do they fudge the figures to make out that they've managed it. Have a look at the video from 4 corners paul, lots of evidence there that countries are starting to make a difference and moving full steam ahead with trying to slow climate change. I read "somewhere" a long time ago that Australia will be the first to see the results of climate change and will be the worse effected. Hottest summer on record in many places last year and the forcast is for even hotter this coming summer. Only thing people can do is install solar and move themselves off the grid, because in the not to distant future power will become so expencive many will not be able to afford it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flybyknight Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 the politicians and sceptics should read this, and we should all remember it when they try to counter..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petals Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I did not vote for this lot after living here for a long time learned what they are about long time ago, status quot and forward thinking is banned. Insular and its all about me gov. I sent an email to my mp who happens to be Minister for Environment this week asking if the gov members have white sticks when they travel overseas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Have a look at the video from 4 corners paul, lots of evidence there that countries are starting to make a difference and moving full steam ahead with trying to slow climate change. I read "somewhere" a long time ago that Australia will be the first to see the results of climate change and will be the worse effected. Hottest summer on record in many places last year and the forcast is for even hotter this coming summer. Only thing people can do is install solar and move themselves off the grid, because in the not to distant future power will become so expencive many will not be able to afford it. When the price of electricity is so high that solar power and water heating becomes cost effective people will move to it. As more and more solar panels are made and sold it will get cheaper, so the time is not far off. Aus will change very quickly as people take up solar power, a lot quicker than most nations, who have a bigger population and a lot less sun.:cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flybyknight Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Have a look at the video from 4 corners paul, lots of evidence there that countries are starting to make a difference and moving full steam ahead with trying to slow climate change. I read "somewhere" a long time ago that Australia will be the first to see the results of climate change and will be the worse effected. Hottest summer on record in many places last year and the forcast is for even hotter this coming summer. Only thing people can do is install solar and move themselves off the grid, because in the not to distant future power will become so expencive many will not be able to afford it. queensland are already getting there, it's good they are forcing people who have a new solar system to fit a box that stops their power going onto the grid. this sounds crap until you factor in that solar is already cheaper than off peak electricity, so in effect they are forcing people to buy battery back up and go off grid. lithium battery prices have fallen over 40% in the last few years, they will plateau soon but not before they make off grid a viable and atractive proposition to the majority of Australian's! Mr Abbotts dreams are already dead, he's just too danm stupid to realise it. lets just hope he doesn't trap us all with laws to enforce our dependence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bibbs Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 the politicians and sceptics should read this, and we should all remember it when they try to counter..... [ATTACH=CONFIG]25259[/ATTACH] And as a true believer, look at numbers :- 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9 & 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina2 Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 queensland are already getting there, it's good they are forcing people who have a new solar system to fit a box that stops their power going onto the grid. this sounds crap until you factor in that solar is already cheaper than off peak electricity, so in effect they are forcing people to buy battery back up and go off grid. lithium battery prices have fallen over 40% in the last few years, they will plateau soon but not before they make off grid a viable and atractive proposition to the majority of Australian's! Mr Abbotts dreams are already dead, he's just too danm stupid to realise it. lets just hope he doesn't trap us all with laws to enforce our dependence. The second batteries and ability to store our own power becomes a reasonable price we will be going off the grid and I cant wait !. We have large water tanks so that takes care of water. Also found a wood fire that has a small oven built in, not one of the big Esse fires this is a much smaller unit but heats 20 squares. Cant cook huge meals but small meals, bread no issues. Have started buying bottles and will soon be starting to preserve fruit and make jams. We are about to retire so money will be tight. Gov wont look after us so need to look after ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bibbs Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Guys :- Tina2 and flybyknight like this. You may want to 'un-like' my post. I'm saying you are on a bandwagon fallacy .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flybyknight Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 hehe thanks each to their own i guess one thing Lord Deban mentioned is that the evidence of man made Climate Change is now as strong as the evidence linking smoking to cancer. i havn't checked this as yet, but does this sway you in any way? seems pretty compelling. edit..... checked ....... http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-risks-as-conclusive-as-link-between-smoking-and-lung-cancer/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bibbs Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 hehe thanks each to their own i guess one thing Lord Deban mentioned is that the evidence of man made Climate Change is now as strong as the evidence linking smoking to cancer. i havn't checked this as yet, but does this sway you in any way? seems pretty compelling. edit..... checked ....... http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-risks-as-conclusive-as-link-between-smoking-and-lung-cancer/ The problem I have is that the 'evidence' is all from computer models. And yes, the models tell us that it's all doom if we carry on. These same models have dodgy data in, and which none predicted the current 17 year stall in raising temps. Do I think we should be taxing people to stop? No. It usually impacts the poorest in energy prices, and emerging nations are being restricted. Do I think CO2 emissions are a problem? Not sure yet. The models suggest we should all be burning, but we are not. Do I think it's all p*ssing in the wind? Pretty much. We are talking about a few degrees one way or another, and in the scheme of things it's nothing compared to what the Earth has (and will again) go through. Don't get me wrong, I'm not for burning all the coal, oil and gas in the dirties way possible, just for the sake of it. I do feel we should be cutting pollution and moving to more renewable energy. I just think we should be looking at efficiency, recycling, dumping rubbish and actual chemical pollution issues. Stuff that's a problem now that I don't need an inaccurate computer model to wrongly predict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Great thread and some interesting links. It's always tricky picking through vested interests on both sides of any issue and there are massive sums to be lost by some for fossil fuel use reduction and equally large amounts to be gained by those investing in renewables. I always fall back on my own commonsense with issues such as these. It rarely let's me down. In the 60s and 70s, when I was growing up, many disputed that smoking was harmful. I lived in a world of second hand smoke and found it noxious and deeply unpleasant and thought surely sucking smoke and toxins into your lungs all day had to be harmful. I didn't feel personally it needed to be proven; it seemed commonsense. Those in denial at the time largely had a vested interest in tobacco or lacked commonsense. Burning coal, oil and gas generates emissions and releases stored carbon from the earth into the atmosphere. Commonsense is telling me that on the scale humans have been doing this in recent decades it must have an impact on the planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bibbs Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Burning coal, oil and gas generates emissions and releases stored carbon from the earth into the atmosphere. Commonsense is telling me that on the scale humans have been doing this in recent decades it must have an impact on the planet. Few points :- It's not carbon, it's CO2. The stuff plants need to survive. The amount we have in the atmosphere has been at hugely greater quantities. It's actually suggested that the coming out of an ice age (where CO2 levels follow the temperature, not the other way round) provided the conditions for the Cambrian explosion in life on the planet (more plants, more animals). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina2 Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 Few points :- It's not carbon, it's CO2. The stuff plants need to survive. The amount we have in the atmosphere has been at hugely greater quantities. It's actually suggested that the coming out of an ice age (where CO2 levels follow the temperature, not the other way round) provided the conditions for the Cambrian explosion in life on the planet (more plants, more animals). Yet now we see the Great Barrier Reef dying due to dumping of toxic waste and the oceans warming. Agree live in general needs CO2 to survive, it is the carbon immisions that are the concern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Gee. It's freezing today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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