Tony Abbott has done it. He has stopped the boats.

[MARYROSE02]

Can we keep this thread about Australia please ?

 

The trouble is, it gets a bit boring, labouring the same old point a thousand times. I thought 'Flag' would have accepted my absolute, inarguable, undeniable, truths by now, but it's not to be!

[ArthurPendragon]

I guess life in India is great if u r middle class (& upper caste), but I would not fancy life at the bottom, especially compared to UK. Children still work in factories, little more than slaves, and untouchables are worse than slaves.

Its more complicated that that, MaryRose.

 

Actually, India has pretty strong laws against Caste discrimination and anyway, the discrimination is on the vane.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/world/asia/11caste.html

India also has a pretty good affirmative action to end the caste discrimination.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2013/06/affirmative-action

 

 

On the same note, isn't the life expectancy of natives in Australia equal to a third world nation inspite of living in one of the world's richest, less populated and resource rich country?

[ArthurPendragon]

The trouble is, it gets a bit boring, labouring the same old point a thousand times. I thought 'Flag' would have accepted my absolute, inarguable, undeniable, truths by now, but it's not to be!

Just trying to exchange ideas

[ArthurPendragon]

I think the fabric of the country changing is not a good thing. We have majority of European ancestry in Australia and also many many migrants from around the world. If Australia keeps immigration levels balanced then that's good as there are benefits of migration from other countries. But what happens when migrants pour in from one country ? That's happened in the Uk with polish migrants and it's changed with many areas losing its identity. And people do fear that happening in Australia.

 

So yeah controlled migration is very important but people like to use the racist card and say equal opportunities to everyone. Migration is great for everyone and it's worked in Australia.

Non discriminatory migration to attract the best in the world who will be law abiding and agree to live by the values of the land is what we should aim for.

[Parley]

Non discriminatory migration to attract the best in the world who will be law abiding and agree to live by the values of the land is what we should aim for.

 

What about refugees ?

[ArthurPendragon]

What about refugees ?

No comments:biggrin:.

And I'm not able to make up my mind either way.

[MARYROSE02]

Its more complicated that that, MaryRose.

 

Actually, India has pretty strong laws against Caste discrimination and anyway, the discrimination is on the vane.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/world/asia/11caste.html

India also has a pretty good affirmative action to end the caste discrimination.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2013/06/affirmative-action

 

 

On the same note, isn't the life expectancy of natives in Australia equal to a third world nation inspite of living in one of the world's richest, less populated and resource rich country?

 

 

I don't know what the answer is with the Aboriginal mortality rate. Various governments from both sides have tried. Has there been NO improvement in their conditions? I hear information broadcast all the time as I listen to Koori Radio, encouraging people to change their lifestyles, give up booze and cigarettes, etc. It's not all 'our' fault. There are a lot of problems and racism/sexism within the indigenous community but you only hear about white 'crimes.'

 

Regarding India, well they are moving in the right direction, but merely passing new laws outlawing discrimination is not the same as enforcing them, and lower castes, women, peasants, children, are still right at the bottom of the heap.

[MARYROSE02]

I like the exchange of ideas, and I also like it when posts go 'off topic', just like they do in normal conversation. I never mind in the least if i start a thread and it goes off at a tangent. One thing leads to another. People think of different things. For me, it makes it more interesting.

[ArthurPendragon]

I don't know what the answer is with the Aboriginal mortality rate. Various governments from both sides have tried. Has there been NO improvement in their conditions? I hear information broadcast all the time as I listen to Koori Radio, encouraging people to change their lifestyles, give up booze and cigarettes, etc. It's not all 'our' fault. There are a lot of problems and racism/sexism within the indigenous community but you only hear about white 'crimes.'

 

Regarding India, well they are moving in the right direction, but merely passing new laws outlawing discrimination is not the same as enforcing them, and lower castes, women, peasants, children, are still right at the bottom of the heap.

 

It doesn't matter whose fault it is, MaryRose.

If you ignore the names of the country and close your eyes and imagine about a rich country with a small population and with abundant natural resources is having problems in solving the problems of one set of its citizens and then a middle income developing country where nearly 30% of the population is struggling to develop, including men, women, upper castes, lower castes and all types of people. How can you expect the middle income country to solve all its problems within a few decade when a rich country isn't able to?

 

And India has a very strict law to protect the lower class from abuse, almost pushing the proof of innocence to be provided by the accused.

This is from Human rights watch and not any indian publication.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/india/India994-16.htm

 

Whereas we are still debating if section 18C is needed or not. And looking at the domestic violence situation here, even the women's rigths activists are complaining that the intervention orders are not properly enforced.

So why should we assume that India won't enforce its laws, but other countries would? Was the British laws against child labor during 19th and 20th century enforced properly at first? The answer is no, but having a law means that the abuse is illegal and the law will catch up with you anyday, even after 30 years. This puts the fear into the abusers and it will stop.

[Guest Guest66881]

I watched a TV program the other night, it was about Casuarina prison in WA.and just how many are held there and at what level of life they receive.

 

Interesting stat -Aboriginals make up 2% of the Australian population but make up 75% of the prison population.

[ArthurPendragon]

I watched a TV program the other night, it was about Casuarina prison in WA.and just how many are held their and at what level of life they receive.

 

Interesting stat -Aboriginals make up 2% of the Australian population but make up 75% of the prison population.

This brings up two possibilities. Either the people are committing more crime or the people are being jailed more than the rest of the population.

Either way, we need to come up with new ideas to solve the problem and move people from committing crime and into the job market.

[Parley]

Rest assured it is the former, which leads to the latter.

[Parley]

Alcohol abuse is a major factor.

[Guest Guest66881]

Scary which ever way you want to paint it mate, they said in the documentary that most of the high danger level crimes within the Aboriginal community throw the offenders out of that community and that is seen as a bigger sentence than prison, rural levels of Aboriginal inmates is higher than town living inmates also.

[ArthurPendragon]

What about refugees ?

I've been thinking about this and still couldn't make up my mind though. I find it sad when I hear people comment about violently stopping refugees from coming in. This prevents any proper discussion in a mature way about this issue.

But I'm not sure if we can have people coming in here without verification or security checks as the things that are happening in the regions where the refugees are coming from are pretty horrifying and we don't want any battle hardened extremists coming in the disguise of refugees.

So we might have to come up with a balanced solution, which is humane and is logical at the same time.

[Parley]

I've been thinking about this and still couldn't make up my mind though. I find it sad when I hear people comment about violently stopping refugees from coming in. This prevents any proper discussion in a mature way about this issue.

But I'm not sure if we can have people coming in here without verification or security checks as the things that are happening in the regions where the refugees are coming from are pretty horrifying and we don't want any battle hardened extremists coming in the disguise of refugees.

So we might have to come up with a balanced solution, which is humane and is logical at the same time.

 

Trouble is if it is too cushy it just encourages the masses to come in their droves.

It is unfortunate but a harsh system is required. It may have been Julia Gillard or Kevin Rudd who said there must be no advantage given to those who come by boat to those who are following the correct process and coming via offshore refugee camps.

[ArthurPendragon]

Rest assured it is the former, which leads to the latter.

Now that's my point. Before we comment about how other country and its disadvantaged minority, we also need to look into ours and try to solve the problem. We can't have a section of our population in jail in disproportionate numbers and then not try to solve it. And that's especially if we want to champion human rights all over the world. Else our credibility takes a hit.

[Parley]

Every government has been trying to solve it for decades.

[Guest Guest66881]

Now that's my point. Before we comment about how other country and its disadvantaged minority, we also need to look into ours and try to solve the problem. We can't have a section of our population in jail in disproportionate numbers and then not try to solve it. And that's especially if we want to champion human rights all over the world. Else our credibility takes a hit.

 

 

That was the point of my posting, i came here as a 'foreigner', ok my situation is vastly different to those who risk life using boats etc.

But now we live here and have managed to blend into society taking on so many different ways of living compared to what we was used to (all little changes - most ridiculous) but changes nonetheless.

My heart goes out to those wanting to come here to escape their own countries woes, i imagine most would not flee if it was safe?

The whole issue of boat people is a very thorny topic, only because you have to be seen to be doing the right things in the right way (can't please all the people and all that).

My idea would be to rehome the 'needy' boat people into far reaching areas of Australia hoping to regenerate those areas and help integrate and improve Aboriginal lives also.

[ArthurPendragon]

I'm still not able to judge though. As they say, the truth is always in between.

 

These articles are not from Greens or the lefts, but from reputed publications.

 

http://thediplomat.com/2014/02/australias-troubling-asylum-seeker-policy

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/26/opinion/australias-guantanamo-problem.html

[ArthurPendragon]

That was the point of my posting, i came here as a 'foreigner', ok my situation is vastly different to those who risk life using boats etc.

But now we live here and have managed to blend into society taking on so many different ways of living compared to what we was used to (all little changes - most ridiculous) but changes nonetheless.

My heart goes out to those wanting to come here to escape their own countries woes, i imagine most would not flee if it was safe?

The whole issue of boat people is a very thorny topic, only because you have to be seen to be doing the right things in the right way (can't please all the people and all that).

My idea would be to rehome the 'needy' boat people into far reaching areas of Australia hoping to regenerate those areas and help integrate and improve Aboriginal lives also.

 

Now, we need to find out if people are fleeing for safety or for any economic reasons, and it gets more tricky then. So no easy answers from the looks of it.

[ArthurPendragon]

That was the point of my posting, i came here as a 'foreigner', ok my situation is vastly different to those who risk life using boats etc.

But now we live here and have managed to blend into society taking on so many different ways of living compared to what we was used to (all little changes - most ridiculous) but changes nonetheless.

My heart goes out to those wanting to come here to escape their own countries woes, i imagine most would not flee if it was safe?

The whole issue of boat people is a very thorny topic, only because you have to be seen to be doing the right things in the right way (can't please all the people and all that).

My idea would be to rehome the 'needy' boat people into far reaching areas of Australia hoping to regenerate those areas and help integrate and improve Aboriginal lives also.

I agree with your comments. I too came in as a skilled migrant and having a job and a good life. I've been living the Aussie dream and have no complaints. Now the question is how we let people in and whether its wise to let in people who come by boat without any vetting process and if we need to have a vetting process for security, how do we handle that. No country will like to have a porous borders and has a right to decide on whom to let in. At the same time, as a liberal democracy, we can't turn blind eyes to human suffering. We can try to stop the fights, but then we might be accused of invading nations.

Thats the reason I've been stressing the importance of our governments helping India and China in the quest for development. We have this problems because a few small countries are having instability in their midst. Just image something like this happening in India or China. We can then kiss world stability good bye for a century.

[Guest Guest66881]

I agree with your comments. I too came in as a skilled migrant and having a job and a good life. I've been living the Aussie dream and have no complaints. Now the question is how we let people in and whether its wise to let in people who come by boat without any vetting process and if we need to have a vetting process for security, how do we handle that. No country will like to have a porous borders and has a right to decide on whom to let in. At the same time, as a liberal democracy, we can't turn blind eyes to human suffering. We can try to stop the fights, but then we might be accused of invading nations.

Thats the reason I've been stressing the importance of our governments helping India and China in the quest for development. We have this problems because a few small countries are having instability in their midst. Just image something like this happening in India or China. We can then kiss world stability good bye for a century.

 

 

Almost nuclear in proportion, like you previously wrote the problem would be with the vetting process and not calling people liars or hopefully not getting it wrong either way, it is a very hard nut to crack amicably this one.

[wakeboard1980]

Every government has been trying to solve it for decades.

Took the words right out of my mouth

[ArthurPendragon]

Took the words right out of my mouth

Trying to solve is not enough. We have to solve it. Either through education or through affirmative actions if we are to be considered part of the civilized world.

I think Tony Abbott is doing a good job here by trying to spend more on indigenous education and recognizing the first people.

 

So you criticize India for trying to solve its problems and say its not enough. But when its your country, you try to justify the problem by victim blaming?