fensaddler Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Perhaps if you ask the kin of those who died for that flag, your attitude might be different. Far too much blood has been spilled for it to be changed...IMHO. Cheers, Bobj. I think like the rest of Australia, they might display a diversity of opinion on the subject, and be able to engage thoughtfully with the issues. It is hardly a new issue and has been debated for a long time here. I don't think I'm expressing a view which many Australians themselves have not expressed before me, and probably far more eloquently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 -......but there is another flag in Australia isn't there? I recall vividly the flack a world class indigenous athlete received when she proudly draped her cultural flag around her shoulders! Did Kath Freeman cop some flack over that? I don't remember her copping anything but praise for her conduct, even draping the flag round her. Don't see anything wrong with it myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 IMHO, the flag is a bit of an anachronism these days, particularly the UK flag in the corner - it is backward looking and hardly represents what Aus has become, or the journey it has made in the last 50 years. And Aus needs to get past the whole 'should we be British or American?' thing, and just be itself. It has no reason or need to sit in anyone's shadow, or feel inferior or chippy about anyone - and it has its own future in Asia to pursue. I don't see that the UK flag in the corner sows in any way that Aus is sat in anyone's shadow or feels inferior or has to "get past" anything. Most Aussies are quite happy where they fit in and the flag only shows they are part of the commonwealth and I still think most Aussies are proud and happy that it stays that way. Because of the make up of the people and political setup here we will always feel more at home dealing with European nations and America. Sure we will be part of Asia too but hopefully not too influenced by it. Aus has a great opportunity to be involved, have trade and maybe influence a lot of parts of the World that other Western Nations don't. Puts Aus in an enviable position I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 spotting 'Kochie' saying 'let's see what the weather is like in this great country of ours' is perceptive - in no other country would anyone say that Maybe it's just that reporters in other countries don't think where they live is so great. Kochie obviously believes AUs is a great place to be. Can't see anything wrong with him being proud of where he's from. True I never noticed anyone saying it in the UK and I've never lived anywhere else to compare. You would more likely get a UK presenter looking gloomy and say with a long face, "whats the weather got in store for us today then." I could imagine an American saying it if they lived in somewhere like California and they loved it. Someone like Oprah Winfrey?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommyaussie Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Maybe it's just that reporters in other countries don't think where they live is so great. Kochie obviously believes AUs is a great place to be. Can't see anything wrong with him being proud of where he's from. True I never noticed anyone saying it in the UK and I've never lived anywhere else to compare. You would more likely get a UK presenter looking gloomy and say with a long face, "whats the weather got in store for us today then." I could imagine an American saying it if they lived in somewhere like California and they loved it. Someone like Oprah Winfrey?? Agree. It's just a very different kind of approach. The British are seen as stuffy and reserved, the USA as more rah, rah and up themselves and the Aussies a "couldn't care less" nature. These are all generalisations and some of us fit better with one than the other - doesn't make it right or wrong just different in their approach. Personally I like the positivity that comes across so long as it's not overbearing and too much - then again that's down to individual taste. No right....no wrong...just different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akiralx Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Because of the make up of the people and political setup here we will always feel more at home dealing with European nations and America. Sure we will be part of Asia too but hopefully not too influenced by it. Aus has a great opportunity to be involved, have trade and maybe influence a lot of parts of the World that other Western Nations don't. But if you remove UK-born residents from the calculation, there are in Australia far more Asian-born residents than other European- and US-born residents combined, so from the make up of the people I'm not sure why we would be more at home dealing with Europe and America? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 But if you remove UK-born residents from the calculation, there are in Australia far more Asian-born residents than other European- and US-born residents combined, so from the make up of the people I'm not sure why we would be more at home dealing with Europe and America? I think a lot of the Asian born migrants wanted to get away from their country and it's problems and liked Australia the way it is. No to change it into another Singapore, China or Japan. I work with a Singaporean who is married to a Singaporean guy. They have been here a few years now and have a couple of kids. They decided they would move back to Singapore. 6 months later she was back here, in her old job. I asked why they came back and she said they couldn't stand the lifestyle there any longer. They had forgotten how little space they had, how the work ethic there is totally different and realised they liked Aus a whole lot better, so came back. A lot of emigrants from the UK like Aus they way it is too, they don't want it to change into little England, although there are a few. Most have come, like we did to accept and embrace something different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommyaussie Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I think a lot of the Asian born migrants wanted to get away from their country and it's problems and liked Australia the way it is. No to change it into another Singapore, China or Japan. I work with a Singaporean who is married to a Singaporean guy. They have been here a few years now and have a couple of kids. They decided they would move back to Singapore. 6 months later she was back here, in her old job. I asked why they came back and she said they couldn't stand the lifestyle there any longer. They had forgotten how little space they had, how the work ethic there is totally different and realised they liked Aus a whole lot better, so came back. A lot of emigrants from the UK like Aus they way it is too, they don't want it to change into little England, although there are a few. Most have come, like we did to accept and embrace something different. Exactly right. Strangely my Singaporean friends also said the same. They said they actually had a more privileged lifestyle in Singapore but the values for them no longer represented how they felt. They said ironically they felt there were more cultural restrictions placed on them in their own country of birth than the country they decided to move to i.e. Australia so they too came back here. Whilst the Australian flag shows more ties to Europe than Asia it's because that is the historical background and is fact. Who knows if in time it may change again. Change doesn't happen overnight. And whilst Asia is a great part of this country, it is so alongside every other foreign national country who lives here and the flag can't contain a symbol from every one of them. It is, at the end of the day, a country with strong ties to it's "mother country" and on it's own is not wholly symbolic of the Australian culture as it works alongside the context and content of how we live here. IMHO Australia is trying to make it's own mark and to become more independent from all other countries and embrace the multiculturalism that these variances have to offer Australia yet without apologising that at the end of the day it is a western country based on a western cultural ethos. Australia day celebrations embrace the differences whilst maintaining it also has something to be proud of within an inclusive society. "Good on em" I say :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommyaussie Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 But if you remove UK-born residents from the calculation, there are in Australia far more Asian-born residents than other European- and US-born residents combined, so from the make up of the people I'm not sure why we would be more at home dealing with Europe and America? And Australia has the most Greeks outside of Greece. What a mixed bunch we are! Given the above mixture of cultures it is strange that some sensationalist propaganda believes the whole of Australia is racist when indeed a major part of the population is Heinz 57, including me :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fensaddler Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I don't see that the UK flag in the corner sows in any way that Aus is sat in anyone's shadow or feels inferior or has to "get past" anything. Most Aussies are quite happy where they fit in and the flag only shows they are part of the commonwealth and I still think most Aussies are proud and happy that it stays that way. Because of the make up of the people and political setup here we will always feel more at home dealing with European nations and America. Sure we will be part of Asia too but hopefully not too influenced by it. Aus has a great opportunity to be involved, have trade and maybe influence a lot of parts of the World that other Western Nations don't. Puts Aus in an enviable position I think. Sorry Paul - I should clarify my own post. There are two statements - one about the flag, and the second about whether Australia should look to the US or the UK - and they are responding to different lines of discussion in this thread. Putting them together (my fault) means that I've made a link between the first and the second which was not intended. So the bit about being in anyone's shadow or having to get past anything are not intended to relate to the flag - its a response to the 'should we look to the US or the UK' discussion - and my view, for what its worth, is that Australia is a mature and capable enough country not to need to feel particularly tied to either. I guess the only way that does relate to the flag debate is that is having the Union Jack on the flag can look like we are facing in a particular direction. I think Canada probably has a better solution - in the Commonwealth, forging its own way in the world, and with a flag which doesn't tie itself visually to its colonial past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peccavi Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Perhaps if you ask the kin of those who died for that flag, your attitude might be different. Far too much blood has been spilled for it to be changed...IMHO. Cheers, Bobj. A flag? This is the problem, the preoccupation with a piece of cloth (and yes I DO know what it represents). It is not acceptable to me to receive a flag in gratitude for the death of a son or husband. My father and his colleagues fought against nazism. He did it for his fellow men and not for a flag. I'm not into the flag burning thing, but there is way too much preoccupation with a 'flag'. I'm often amazed certain commenters give so much credence to wiki entries and their authors. As you say it largely depends on the slant they take of their view of the world. All too few folk seem apt to question but accept such detail as fact. With regards the flag. It has been a long debated subject and will no doubt be a long time before changing in conservative Australia but I am convinced change will eventually come. It is too similar to the NZ one but mainly the British component will wane over the coming decades the massive change in compression of the population begins to impact in varying degrees not considered fully yet. Ultimately these decisions must be taken by Australians only. It was not acceptable to me as a non Australian to be able to vote on the Republic issue in '97?, yet I/we were able to! Republic/flag should be decided by naturalised Australians. I've no doubt the flag will change, but it's up to them. This is very true - I think the Aussie jingoism has accelerated in recent years (spotting 'Kochie' saying 'let's see what the weather is like in this great country of ours' is perceptive - in no other country would anyone say that, to reinforce the viewers emotional wellbeing and reassure them in case they were having doubts!) - maybe as a result of an evolving approach to the Indigenous history which many Aussies feel uncomfortable about. When a country is built on genocide it will leave a sense of uneasiness which its population needs to address somehow. Got to correct this! I might not have been clear enough. It wasn't Koch, it was Carl Stefanovic on ...er, Today? Did Kath Freeman cop some flack over that? I don't remember her copping anything but praise for her conduct, even draping the flag round her. Don't see anything wrong with it myself. She did, I assure you. It was even a discussion topic on one programme; the fallout I mean. Agree. It's just a very different kind of approach. The British are seen as stuffy and reserved, the USA as more rah, rah and up themselves and the Aussies a "couldn't care less" nature. These are all generalisations and some of us fit better with one than the other - doesn't make it right or wrong just different in their approach. Personally I like the positivity that comes across so long as it's not overbearing and too much - then again that's down to individual taste. No right....no wrong...just different. Oh I say! How frightfully unkind. They are indeed. Generalizations. And Australia has the most Greeks outside of Greece. What a mixed bunch we are! Given the above mixture of cultures it is strange that some sensationalist propaganda believes the whole of Australia is racist when indeed a major part of the population is Heinz 57, including me :laugh: Lovely! Sensationalist 'propaganda' is just so well, sensationalist. (The whole of Australia? you mean even my friend Mahatma?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 And Australia has the most Greeks outside of Greece. What a mixed bunch we are! Given the above mixture of cultures it is strange that some sensationalist propaganda believes the whole of Australia is racist when indeed a major part of the population is Heinz 57, including me :laugh: You don't mean Greek born I take it but those of an ethnic Greek background. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 But if you remove UK-born residents from the calculation, there are in Australia far more Asian-born residents than other European- and US-born residents combined, so from the make up of the people I'm not sure why we would be more at home dealing with Europe and America? You are correct but remember the bulk of the population is of a Euro background. Changes will occur and it is worth noting the wealth and quality of a lot of the Asian immigrants will mean their influence in many aspects of life will far out weigh their actual numbers in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I don't see that the UK flag in the corner sows in any way that Aus is sat in anyone's shadow or feels inferior or has to "get past" anything. Most Aussies are quite happy where they fit in and the flag only shows they are part of the commonwealth and I still think most Aussies are proud and happy that it stays that way. Because of the make up of the people and political setup here we will always feel more at home dealing with European nations and America. Sure we will be part of Asia too but hopefully not too influenced by it. Aus has a great opportunity to be involved, have trade and maybe influence a lot of parts of the World that other Western Nations don't. Puts Aus in an enviable position I think. So what about the nations in The Commonwealth that don't display The Union flag in the canton? Has little to do with The Commonwealth and all to do with tradition. Canada ditched their British themed flag back in the 60's and replaced it by a great and recognizable flag. We are somewhat alone not being part of The EU nor The North American Economic Market and far away from our traditional sources of business and origin. WE are becoming ever more dependant on the Asian world in many areas. Not forgetting the great disparity in wealth and wages between these two worlds. I think there are pro's and con's involved which are not clearly understood yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Les Patterson Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I never fought for "The Flag".......the Country...yes...but never the flag. My Grandfather in the first AIF may have had different ideas than me. My two Uncles one of whom is buried in Bavaria and the other died when I was young (both flew for the RAF) may have had different ideas but my father who was in the 6th division Second AIF certainly didn't have a lot of time for the foreign flag in the top left hand corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobj Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 A flag? This is the problem, the preoccupation with a piece of cloth (and yes I DO know what it represents). It is not acceptable to me to receive a flag in gratitude for the death of a son or husband. My father and his colleagues fought against nazism. He did it for his fellow men and not for a flag. I'm not into the flag burning thing, but there is way too much preoccupation with a 'flag'. But it is acceptable to millions of others. Cheers, Bobj. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommyaussie Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 You don't mean Greek born I take it but those of an ethnic Greek background. Correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peccavi Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 But it is acceptable to millions of others. Cheers, Bobj. I know that. I just think we should be more concerned with our fellow men, then the jingoistic loyalty to a flag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ptp113 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 My father bombed the shite out of Germany but he told me he sure didn't do it for any flag! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobj Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I know that. I just think we should be more concerned with our fellow men, then the jingoistic loyalty to a flag. Aah, if only...:yes: But someone would want to tip the apple cart over. Cheers, Bobj. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fensaddler Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 This was the article I remembered when raising the 'flag issue'. Not a new discussion by any means, and one actively engaged in by many Australians. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/21/australias-flag-represents-neither-the-nations-past-nor-its-present Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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