Indo/Aussie relations gone

[Petals]

I think that there was no need to publish this in the papers, yes it was leaked but do we really need to know all this I don't think so. As our former leader says, if we have a terrorist attack and people are hurt, people want to know why no-one knew about it and if we find out people are looking into it, oh dear we should not do that either.

 

Every country has security services and I have always thought that they were looking after their countries interests. This is just push and shove and unfortunately our new leader is not that good in the smoothing waters department.

[Guest Ptp113]

We need them far more than they need us, more so every day.

[Diane]

Unfortunately the spying issue is really no longer the issue - so for Abbott to say it was the former government wouldn't fix the problem. He's made things ten times worse by his attitude and arrogance and lack of diplomacy over the whole handling of the situation from the start.

[Parley]

Unfortunately the spying issue is really no longer the issue - so for Abbott to say it was the former government wouldn't fix the problem. He's made things ten times worse by his attitude and arrogance and lack of diplomacy over the whole handling of the situation from the start.

 

You're so predictable.

[Guest littlesarah]

Sometimes, in the life of a working adult, the perception of one's behaviour is of great importance, in my experience. In some situations, it is quicker and easier to make the right noises, to acknowledge another's opinion and/or stated feelings, and to offer reassurance that the matter is being looked into, etc, etc. However painful it may be, I have found that a certain degree of diplomacy and tact in the short-term can lead to the swift resolution of a matter of concern before it becomes a great big bun-fight. I would have thought that this type of political situation could be handled in a similar way - a reassurance that Indo is Australia's friend, that the current government was unaware of the intelligence gathering in question, and that the matter will be investigated would perhaps have made it easier for the matter to be dealt with in such a way as to avoid the current hostility.

 

That's the way some of us that occupy the adult world of work have to think, because it's a heck of a lot easier to keep some people onside that it is to pay for lawyers to defend what we did (even when we know we are in the right); and if the party that perceives themselves injured should continue to fight, it's much harder to win if your opponent showed empathy and a desire to resolve the matter amicably.

[flag of convenience]

I think that there was no need to publish this in the papers, yes it was leaked but do we really need to know all this I don't think so. As our former leader says, if we have a terrorist attack and people are hurt, people want to know why no-one knew about it and if we find out people are looking into it, oh dear we should not do that either.

 

Every country has security services and I have always thought that they were looking after their countries interests. This is just push and shove and unfortunately our new leader is not that good in the smoothing waters department.

 

Although their countries interests may be in conflict with everybody else's interest. I'm thinking, the treatment in USA of its own citizens after the war with the fear of Reds, Vietnam from the 60s, Chile in 72, Central America in the 80s, and so. The fact that the Anglo sphere counties club together in intelligence sharing doesn't endear them to the world nor depart from the fact they spy on each other.

Australia's closeness with USA is both a positive and a negative in sending Asia mixed messages at times.

[Melb3000]

The Liberals have always lacked tact when it comes to diplomacy with Indonesia. Howard seriously rubbed them up the wrong way as well. Labour Australian governments tend to have much better relationships with Asian countries' governments. The Libs tend to treat them as overt threats and in a patronising manner, which for a country like Indonesia who were repressed by Dutch colonialism until relatively recently and are fiercely nationalistic as a result, certainly find hard to swallow.

 

The big problem with Indonesia/Australian relations is the disparity between the two cultures. Indonesia is the largest muslim country in the world, they harbor a multitude of terrorists and terror groups who have specific interests against Australians and Australia of which the Bali bombing was a direct result. Australia doesn't trust them and vice versa and that's where the spying comes in.

 

If you've ever been over there, especially to Java, you would find there is a huge amount of resentment and mistrust of Australians among the people in the street. I was over there in 1997 as part of a school trip and was constantly harassed in the street, being asked if I was Australian in a sinister way and members of our group were called, '*@%*$ Aussies' because we refused to buy the fake watches and stuff they were trying to sell. Definitely racially motivated and nationalistic.

 

Australia can never be 'friends' with Indonesia, all the two nations can ever hope for is basic cooperation. It's a little similar to how the USA feels about Cuba and Mexico and vice versa.

[starlight7]

Truth is Indonesia is a threat to us They have a huge population of have-nots , they have a different value system, corruption is rife and we don't want them invading us.

[Diane]

Sometimes, in the life of a working adult, the perception of one's behaviour is of great importance, in my experience. In some situations, it is quicker and easier to make the right noises, to acknowledge another's opinion and/or stated feelings, and to offer reassurance that the matter is being looked into, etc, etc. However painful it may be, I have found that a certain degree of diplomacy and tact in the short-term can lead to the swift resolution of a matter of concern before it becomes a great big bun-fight. I would have thought that this type of political situation could be handled in a similar way - a reassurance that Indo is Australia's friend, that the current government was unaware of the intelligence gathering in question, and that the matter will be investigated would perhaps have made it easier for the matter to be dealt with in such a way as to avoid the current hostility.

 

That's the way some of us that occupy the adult world of work have to think, because it's a heck of a lot easier to keep some people onside that it is to pay for lawyers to defend what we did (even when we know we are in the right); and if the party that perceives themselves injured should continue to fight, it's much harder to win if your opponent showed empathy and a desire to resolve the matter amicably.

 

If you ever stand for election, you have my vote!

 

You're so predictable.

 

and you're not??

[Guest Ptp113]

You're so predictable.

 

Yes, she understands realpolitik. You on the other hand...............................................

[MARYROSE02]

I was thinking today, driving home, 'imagine you bought a house in 2013, and just after you move in, you find out that, four years ago, a horrible crime was committed inside that house by the previous owners. Then imagine that the police charge you with the crime because you now own the property, and even worse, the previous owner, who is the guilty party, condemns you as well.

[MARYROSE02]

Truth is Indonesia is a threat to us They have a huge population of have-nots , they have a different value system, corruption is rife and we don't want them invading us.

 

Don't worry. Those nasty Americans will protect us, whatever we say about them!

[Joebloggs]

Absolutely not, I agree with you. It is bribery from Australia to curry favour. That's the point i'm making...there are people on here thinking Australia is doing them a favour by giving "handouts", they aren't. Australia is doing itself a favour.

In any other language it is pure bribery, in politics they call it "aid".

 

India does not need UK money when it's one of the most richest, most corrupt nations on the planet. We didn't take their natural resources, we used them as a massive factory and labour supply, but they've since been in control of their own destiny for 66 years and not done a great job at all. It was the Indian media who pushed for the UK to keep it's "aid" because we assumed it gave us the right to tell them what to do, so they told us to shove it because it meant nothing in the big scheme of things.

 

The thought that Indonesia will toe the line because of Australian bribes is exactly the same. A newly-industrialised country of 250 million will not need to take bribes from a country of 22 million....who will need who the most in 10 years?

 

Handouts or Aid?

 

Nah it's protection money and that's why we haven't had any bombs in Australia like Spain or the UK... $700b in fact

[flag of convenience]

The Liberals have always lacked tact when it comes to diplomacy with Indonesia. Howard seriously rubbed them up the wrong way as well. Labour Australian governments tend to have much better relationships with Asian countries' governments. The Libs tend to treat them as overt threats and in a patronising manner, which for a country like Indonesia who were repressed by Dutch colonialism until relatively recently and are fiercely nationalistic as a result, certainly find hard to swallow.

 

The big problem with Indonesia/Australian relations is the disparity between the two cultures. Indonesia is the largest muslim country in the world, they harbor a multitude of terrorists and terror groups who have specific interests against Australians and Australia of which the Bali bombing was a direct result. Australia doesn't trust them and vice versa and that's where the spying comes in.

 

If you've ever been over there, especially to Java, you would find there is a huge amount of resentment and mistrust of Australians among the people in the street. I was over there in 1997 as part of a school trip and was constantly harassed in the street, being asked if I was Australian in a sinister way and members of our group were called, '*@%*$ Aussies' because we refused to buy the fake watches and stuff they were trying to sell. Definitely racially motivated and nationalistic.

 

Australia can never be 'friends' with Indonesia, all the two nations can ever hope for is basic cooperation. It's a little similar to how the USA feels about Cuba and Mexico and vice versa.

 

Abbott done a pretty decent job at sucking up to the Indonesian President during his recent visit. How many times did he use the very esteemed Bahasa Indonesia term, Bapak in his address . Once may have been ok but he went overboard. Cringe factor there.

Australia being so different can best hope to arrive at an understanding with Indonesia. There is really too little connecting the nations. Language teaching was scaled back, shame as Bahasa is one of the easier languages to learn. Outside of Bali there is too little contact between the nations. All focus seems to be on China these days, with India and Japan coming up a way behind. Australia could well do with greater involvement in that area.

[flag of convenience]

Handouts or Aid?

 

Nah it's protection money and that's why we haven't had any bombs in Australia like Spain or the UK... $700b in fact

 

I wonder how you arrive at that opinion?

[flag of convenience]

Don't worry. Those nasty Americans will protect us, whatever we say about them!

 

You mean with the eagerness (not)they expressed in coming to Australia's aid during the East Timor crisis? Very late comers as with previous theatres of conflict.

[flag of convenience]

I was thinking today, driving home, 'imagine you bought a house in 2013, and just after you move in, you find out that, four years ago, a horrible crime was committed inside that house by the previous owners. Then imagine that the police charge you with the crime because you now own the property, and even worse, the previous owner, who is the guilty party, condemns you as well.

 

Depending on how much intelligence the government in power at the time is made aware off. I don't expect all is disclosed. It's the deed not the party. All know they do it. Just bad luck for Abbott it came up so early on his watch.

[flag of convenience]

Truth is Indonesia is a threat to us They have a huge population of have-nots , they have a different value system, corruption is rife and we don't want them invading us.

 

Ah the old Yellow Peril theory. Thought that was put to rest decades ago. As if Indonesia could any time soon launch an invasion of Australia. On the other hand Australia did partake in the loss of a so called Indonesian Provence....

[ArthurPendragon]

Absolutely not, I agree with you. It is bribery from Australia to curry favour. That's the point i'm making...there are people on here thinking Australia is doing them a favour by giving "handouts", they aren't. Australia is doing itself a favour.

In any other language it is pure bribery, in politics they call it "aid".

 

India does not need UK money when it's one of the most richest, most corrupt nations on the planet. We didn't take their natural resources, we used them as a massive factory and labour supply, but they've since been in control of their own destiny for 66 years and not done a great job at all. It was the Indian media who pushed for the UK to keep it's "aid" because we assumed it gave us the right to tell them what to do, so they told us to shove it because it meant nothing in the big scheme of things.

 

The thought that Indonesia will toe the line because of Australian bribes is exactly the same. A newly-industrialised country of 250 million will not need to take bribes from a country of 22 million....who will need who the most in 10 years?

 

 

Well, India has actually done a good job and now has the third largest GDP (PPP) in the world.

 

 

India's resources were indeed taken by the colonials as the railways were built to ship them to Europe. There were no cotton fields in Europe. India's riches attracted the others from the time of Greeks,Arabs,Columbus, British,French and Portuguese. From a country having nearly 27% of share in world's economy, it was reduced to 3% during its independence.

 

 

 

 

USA is now trying to get India into its orbit and the highly successful Indian migrant community in USA gives the Americans an advantage no other country can have.

 

 

Even when Indians did nuclear tests during 1998, the world had to accept it on India's terms as isolating India was impossible.

 

 

India has multiple suitors now with the Americans, Russians, French, Japanese, South Koreans, British and the Australian leaders making a beeline to visit and firm up alliances during the past year alone.

 

 

And India reciprocated only to the Americans and Japanese with a visit of its Prime minister.

 

 

Any growing country will have corruption until the institutions mature and with a fiercely independent press, India will surely improve.

[MARYROSE02]

You mean with the eagerness (not)they expressed in coming to Australia's aid during the East Timor crisis? Very late comers as with previous theatres of conflict.

 

Australia was not at war with Indonesia during the East Timor 'crisis'. Was it a crisis? Was it a crisis worthy of the US's intervention.

 

The US did not come late into the conflict in either the First or Second World Wars. Nobody declared war on the US in 1914 or 1939. Like many countries it tried to stay neutral. Was there some moral, or other imperative that the US should have immediately declared war on Germany in 1914 and 1939? Should Britain have declared war on one or other of the combatants in the US Civil War? Why didn't Britain take part in the Vietnam War?

 

I don't know how Australia would have fought off the Japanese without American help, particularly after the fall of Singapore?

[MARYROSE02]

Depending on how much intelligence the government in power at the time is made aware off. I don't expect all is disclosed. It's the deed not the party. All know they do it. Just bad luck for Abbott it came up so early on his watch.

 

 

It is the hypocrisy of the ALP, who, in Government, enacted the policy that has so enraged the Indonesians, then 'play politics' and pretend it is all Tony Abbott's fault.

 

And why did the ABC and The Guardian (Australian edition) decide to reveal it, supposedly in 'the public interest' knowing full well what the ramifications would be?

[MARYROSE02]

Well, India has actually done a good job and now has the third largest GDP (PPP) in the world.

 

 

India's resources were indeed taken by the colonials as the railways were built to ship them to Europe. There were no cotton fields in Europe. India's riches attracted the others from the time of Greeks,Arabs,Columbus, British,French and Portuguese. From a country having nearly 27% of share in world's economy, it was reduced to 3% during its independence.

 

 

 

 

USA is now trying to get India into its orbit and the highly successful Indian migrant community in USA gives the Americans an advantage no other country can have.

 

 

Even when Indians did nuclear tests during 1998, the world had to accept it on India's terms as isolating India was impossible.

 

 

India has multiple suitors now with the Americans, Russians, French, Japanese, South Koreans, British and the Australian leaders making a beeline to visit and firm up alliances during the past year alone.

 

 

And India reciprocated only to the Americans and Japanese with a visit of its Prime minister.

 

 

Any growing country will have corruption until the institutions mature and with a fiercely independent press, India will surely improve.

 

27 per cent reduced to 3 per cent as a result of British conquest? Makes you wonder how Britain ever managed to recover from each successive invasion and conquest - Romans, Saxons, Jutes, Angles, Danes, Normans, plus all the resources expended fighting off the Spanish, French, & Germans.

 

But you are right, India has made huge strides and unlike so many other developing countries, it is a democracy. But how it justifies spending so much money on developing both nuclear and conventional arms, when so much of the country lives in poverty, together with the inequalities of their version of apartheid - the caste system - and other nasty things like child labour and slavery, well, it is better than Pakistan I guess.

[flag of convenience]

It is the hypocrisy of the ALP, who, in Government, enacted the policy that has so enraged the Indonesians, then 'play politics' and pretend it is all Tony Abbott's fault.

 

And why did the ABC and The Guardian (Australian edition) decide to reveal it, supposedly in 'the public interest' knowing full well what the ramifications would be?

 

The press has a perfect right to publish material that comes to hand unless life is endangered doing so. What we need is more investigative journalism not less. We live in a free society and to embarrass government is and neither should be a consideration on what to print.

 

A free press should keep a government accountable. Spying on its own citizens for example all things worthy of revelation.

[flag of convenience]

Australia was not at war with Indonesia during the East Timor 'crisis'. Was it a crisis? Was it a crisis worthy of the US's intervention.

 

The US did not come late into the conflict in either the First or Second World Wars. Nobody declared war on the US in 1914 or 1939. Like many countries it tried to stay neutral. Was there some moral, or other imperative that the US should have immediately declared war on Germany in 1914 and 1939? Should Britain have declared war on one or other of the combatants in the US Civil War? Why didn't Britain take part in the Vietnam War?

 

I don't know how Australia would have fought off the Japanese without American help, particularly after the fall of Singapore?

 

If you recall the situation in 99 it was tense for a time. If Indonesia had not had the President they had at the time, and certain hot heads in their army had their way, support for the brigades who wanted East Timor to remain under Indonesian control would have very likely seen armed confrontation.

America was late in the day in offering support and was critiqued in Australia for their lack of response.

[Parley]

What was the situation in East Timor to do with Australia anyway ?

Was there a good reason for us sticking our nose in ?