Medicus Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Hi guys, I need your guidance. I applied for a 189 visa and claimed to have 75 points. 20 points were due to my doctoral degree from Germany. I'm working as a doctor and the Medical Board actually lists "doctor of medicine" as one of my qualifications. When I applied I sent my German certificate to DIAC. My CO requested further evidence for the doctoral degree otherwise she wouldn't be satisfied. She suggested that my qualification might be more like a "bachelor degree"- I don't have a bachelor degree, my qualification is called "degree in medicine" and my higher qualification is the doctor in medicine which I did after finishing my medical degree. I sent my Medical Board certificate to her today which lists "doctor of medicine" as my qualification but I'm not sure whether she accepts it. If I had applied with a "bachelor degree" (which I considered to be fraught because my degree is not a bachelor degree) I would have had 70 points- so I would have still been invited with the first invitation round. The question is if she refused to acknowledge my doctoral degree (bearing in my mind that the Medical Board accepts and lists it) would I need to reapply/ would my visa being rejected or what would realistically happen? Would really appreciate some advice as I'm not far away from packing my bags and returning to Germany... Cheers Medicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carol Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Hello Your medical degree is not a doctoral level degree it is a bachelor level degree as your CO has pointed out. If it was a doctoral degree it would say 'doctorate of ??' and not 'degree of ??' You will have over claimed points on EOI because of this. I have recently read on here about others who have over claimed some have been told to withdraw their application while others have been given opportunity to try and make up their shortfall by getting partner assessment. I'd contact your case officer and ask for best way to proceed. Hi guys,I need your guidance. I applied for a 189 visa and claimed to have 75 points. 20 points were due to my doctoral degree from Germany. I'm working as a doctor and the Medical Board actually lists "doctor of medicine" as one of my qualifications. When I applied I sent my German certificate to DIAC. My CO requested further evidence for the doctoral degree otherwise she wouldn't be satisfied. She suggested that my qualification might be more like a "bachelor degree"- I don't have a bachelor degree, my qualification is called "degree in medicine" and my higher qualification is the doctor in medicine which I did after finishing my medical degree. I sent my Medical Board certificate to her today which lists "doctor of medicine" as my qualification but I'm not sure whether she accepts it. If I had applied with a "bachelor degree" (which I considered to be fraught because my degree is not a bachelor degree) I would have had 70 points- so I would have still been invited with the first invitation round. The question is if she refused to acknowledge my doctoral degree (bearing in my mind that the Medical Board accepts and lists it) would I need to reapply/ would my visa being rejected or what would realistically happen? Would really appreciate some advice as I'm not far away from packing my bags and returning to Germany... Cheers Medicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeepingTom Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 A "doctor of medicine" degree does not mean its a doctoral degree. A doctoral degree usually refers to a PhD.. Hi guys,I need your guidance. I applied for a 189 visa and claimed to have 75 points. 20 points were due to my doctoral degree from Germany. I'm working as a doctor and the Medical Board actually lists "doctor of medicine" as one of my qualifications. When I applied I sent my German certificate to DIAC. My CO requested further evidence for the doctoral degree otherwise she wouldn't be satisfied. She suggested that my qualification might be more like a "bachelor degree"- I don't have a bachelor degree, my qualification is called "degree in medicine" and my higher qualification is the doctor in medicine which I did after finishing my medical degree. I sent my Medical Board certificate to her today which lists "doctor of medicine" as my qualification but I'm not sure whether she accepts it. If I had applied with a "bachelor degree" (which I considered to be fraught because my degree is not a bachelor degree) I would have had 70 points- so I would have still been invited with the first invitation round. The question is if she refused to acknowledge my doctoral degree (bearing in my mind that the Medical Board accepts and lists it) would I need to reapply/ would my visa being rejected or what would realistically happen? Would really appreciate some advice as I'm not far away from packing my bags and returning to Germany... Cheers Medicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaoticturtle Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 It sounds like you are a medical doctor - so have a graduate degree in medicine. Graduate degrees (i.e. degrees you study at university which only require prior high school/college level education) are also called Bachelors Degrees. A doctoral degree means a PhD, and is a type of post-graduate degree (i.e. you would probably need a graduate degree before you can start one). Its the difference between a doctor you would go to see because you are sick, and someone who can call themselves Dr X because they have done a doctoral research study which could be in something completely unrelated to medicine. PhDs normally take several years to complete. How long did you study for your doctor of medicine? Did you start the course directly from high school/college? I'm not sure how it affects your visa application, but I hope that helps to clarify what type of degree you have! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLDavis Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Hello Your medical degree is not a doctoral level degree it is a bachelor level degree as your CO has pointed out. If it was a doctoral degree it would say 'doctorate of ??' and not 'degree of ??' You will have over claimed points on EOI because of this. I have recently read on here about others who have over claimed some have been told to withdraw their application while others have been given opportunity to try and make up their shortfall by getting partner assessment. I'd contact your case officer and ask for best way to proceed. Yes. A Medical Degree is a Degree, not a PhD. Although in the UK it is a 5 year degree so perhaps equal to a BA + a Masters Degree. But I think making him resubmit an assessment would be very harsh considering he has the points either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medicus Posted April 26, 2013 Author Share Posted April 26, 2013 Hi guys, thanks for your replies. I might have formulated it the wrong way. My doctoral degree was obtained AFTER my degree in medicine and it is called "doctor of medicine". It included a 200 pages dissertation based on a research project and I was given "magna cum laude" by the university. The medical board which is vetassess for doctors lists "doctor of medicine" as my qualification. If I just had a degree in medicine I would understand the COs response but this isn't the case. What would you advice me to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest76088 Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 1. Do you have currently have and did you have at time of visa application a certificate that certifies you as having a "Doctor of Medicine" from a recognised educational institution 2. Has it been translated into English if appropriate? 3. Have you supplied this certificate in acceptable-form to your CO? If the answer to the three questions above is "Yes" then what exactly has the CO said in response to your submission? BigD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medicus Posted April 26, 2013 Author Share Posted April 26, 2013 Yes, yes, and yes I think. The medical board lists "doctor of medicine" as my qualification so I assumed they would consider it as being recognized. I called the Medical Board today asking for a written confirmation that they recognize it and was told if they didn't recognize it, they wouldn't list it as my qualification. Makes sense, doesn't it?! But apparently not for immigration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somudra Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 In many Countries, After MBBS ( Bachelor ) the student have a choice of doing a Postgraduate academic degree, most of the case the duration of the course is 2 years. the degree they offer is either MD ( Doctor of medicine ) or MS ( Master of Surgery ). These two are Masters level Post graduate degree. PHD is another degree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medicus Posted April 26, 2013 Author Share Posted April 26, 2013 Immigration was asking whether I have a "doctoral degree". Given that I wrote a thesis, sat an exam, was given "magna cum laude" and got a certificate saying "doctor of medicine" that is listed by the medical board which is my assessing authority I'm a bit puzzled to hear that I may not have a doctoral degree. Immigration did not ask for a PhD but for a doctoral degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carol Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Hi this still doesn't equate to a doctorate degree. A doctorate is gained in a period of 3 years plus (unless through publications) it is gained at a specific academic level (in Scotland it is SCQF 12- not sure about other countries). Magna cum laude is your distinction. Unless you studied at doctoral level and have a degree that says doctorate (PhD or Professional Doctorate) you don't have a doctorate You really need to talk to case officer. you are a medical doctor not an academic doctor- different things! carol Hi guys,thanks for your replies. I might have formulated it the wrong way. My doctoral degree was obtained AFTER my degree in medicine and it is called "doctor of medicine". It included a 200 pages dissertation based on a research project and I was given "magna cum laude" by the university. The medical board which is vetassess for doctors lists "doctor of medicine" as my qualification. If I just had a degree in medicine I would understand the COs response but this isn't the case. What would you advice me to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floplo Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 If I understand correctly you did a 'Promotion' after the 'Staatsexamen', and if so you indeed have following international convention a 'doctoral' degree. The 'Staatsexamen' would be internationally equivalent to a Masters Degree and the 'Promotion' is equivalent to a PhD. The confusion might be due to the (predominantly American...) convention of awarding a M.D (Medical Doctor) degree, which is academically equivalent to a Masters Degree. (and the rather unconventional speed with which German medical doctoral degree's are awarded) I have no real experience with dealing with DIAC, but I could see two possibilities. First get your university to certify that you indeed have been awarded a degree that is equivalent to a doctoral degree (I assume you have an English translation of the Promotionsurkunde, so maybe a letter from the 'Pruefungsamt' that states the equivalence of your degree). The second version would be a publication or statement from the Kultusministerkonferenz (who deals with foreign degrees in Germany), which describes the value of your degree (and maybe even could state that your degree is equivalent to an Australian doctorate) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warm but mild Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Medicus, are you 'promoviert' ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medicus Posted April 26, 2013 Author Share Posted April 26, 2013 Yes, I'm promoviert. The idea with the letter from the kultusministeriumkomferenz is a very good idea, I will ring them on Monday. The sad thing is that I would't have needed to claim the doctoral degree to be invited but claimed it because I thought it would be fraudulent not to mention it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrussell Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Hi guys,I need your guidance. I applied for a 189 visa and claimed to have 75 points. 20 points were due to my doctoral degree from Germany. I'm working as a doctor and the Medical Board actually lists "doctor of medicine" as one of my qualifications. When I applied I sent my German certificate to DIAC. My CO requested further evidence for the doctoral degree otherwise she wouldn't be satisfied. She suggested that my qualification might be more like a "bachelor degree"- I don't have a bachelor degree, my qualification is called "degree in medicine" and my higher qualification is the doctor in medicine which I did after finishing my medical degree. I sent my Medical Board certificate to her today which lists "doctor of medicine" as my qualification but I'm not sure whether she accepts it. If I had applied with a "bachelor degree" (which I considered to be fraught because my degree is not a bachelor degree) I would have had 70 points- so I would have still been invited with the first invitation round. The question is if she refused to acknowledge my doctoral degree (bearing in my mind that the Medical Board accepts and lists it) would I need to reapply/ would my visa being rejected or what would realistically happen? Would really appreciate some advice as I'm not far away from packing my bags and returning to Germany... Cheers Medicus Google CEP (Country Education Profiles) which is the authority relied upon by ministerial delegates and others in assessing the comparability of foreign academic qualifications. The opinions of foreign authorities ( your Board) are irrelevant. Here is an extract from the CEP: [h=1]Higher Education Section 1[/h] A Diplom or Magister Artium or Erste Staatsexamen/Staatsprüfung awarded by a listed institution and requiring at least eight semesters/four years of full-time study is assessed as comparable to the educational level of an Australian Bachelor degree (see Comparative Quality Indicators). Examples of the Diplom are the Diplom-Ingenieur and Diplom Betriebswirt. Note: the Vordiplom-Prufung or Zwischenprufung examination taken at the end of the Grundstudium (stage one of study) represents an intermediate stage and not a completed award. A Graduirt (Grad.) or Diplom (FH) or a Staatsexamen/Staatsprüfung awarded by a listed institution following six semesters/three years of full-time study is assessed as comparable to the educational level of an Australian Bachelor degree (see Comparative Quality Indicators). Note: Examples of a Diplom (FH) include the Diplom-Ingenieur (Fachhochschule) and Diplom Betriebswirt (Fachhochschule). A Diplom-Ingenieur or Ingenieur (Grad.) awarded by a listed institution solely on the basis of the old Ingenieurzeugnis from an Ingenieurschule is assessed as comparable to the educational level of an AQF Diploma (see below, Technical Education). This assessment refers to comparative levels of achievement only, and does not refer to specified competency requirements for AQF qualifications or National Training Framework Training Packages, as these can only be determined by the relevant Australian assessing authority. A Doktor awarded as a first qualification by a listed institution is assessed on a case-by-case basis. A Promotion (doctorate) with the title of Doktor awarded by a listed institution is assessed as comparable to the educational level of an Australian Doctoral degree. Other qualifications awarded by a listed institution are assessed on a case-by-case basis. It seems entirely possible that your case officer was not satisfied by the CEP reference in your case. To make a case you would need to know whether your qualification was conferred by a 'Listed Institution'. May I suggest that you consult a registered migration agent for further advice or alternatively subscribe to the CEP? If you have over claimed points (whatever the reason) you will be refused a visa and the visa application charge you have paid will be forfeited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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