189 visa - issues over work experience claims

[PaulSwann]

Hi All,

 

I arrived in Perth in Sep on a 417 working hol visa with my wife. We intended staying in Perth until Jan and then move on to Adelaide or Melbourne. We both got jobs within a week of landing, my wife has a cousin here and we made good friends and settled in quickly. We decided to look into permanent residency and other visa options, I am a CIMA qualified accountant and on the research I did was confident I could achieve the 60 points required. We decided not to use a migration agency as the one we were put in touch with wanted $10k to submit it which we couldn't afford, also based on the guidance provided in the DIAC booklet for 189, 190 & 489 visa it seemed fairly straight forward.

 

I sat my IELTS (overall 8.5, lowest score being 7.5 for written element) and had my skills successfully assessed by CPA. The problem I am having is that DIAC will not recognise my work experience before I became a full member of CIMA in 2011 and which would entitle me to claim no points for overseas employment. I completed all my exams in Nov 2007 and I worked as a management accountant from jan 2006 for a large PLC company, I have references for all my work including a full portfolio signed off by my managers. I have also pulled together a skills matrix which makes it easy to see that I was carrying out all skills required under both ANZSCO and CIMA requirements from 2006. My frustration is that the guidance booklet stipulates that you need to provide references containing particular points, which mine do. It mentions that CPA may provide an opinion, DIAC have acknowledged that it isn't mandatory and even if CPA do acknowledge the work experience as skilled they still probably won't accept it.

 

I expect to hear back from them in next week for a decision on whether they will accept my references and portfolio as sufficient proof of my work experience. Despite the evidence clearly proving I was carrying out all the tasks expected of a management accountant I really don't expect them to change their initial thoughts. I will then have the option of withdrawing my application or appealing.

 

Sorry for the long winded post but any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

 

Paul

[Rupert]

Were you actually contacted by DIAC with queries and given time to respond? I am just trying to ascertain how serious an issue this is. It is my understanding that accountant is one of those professions where it is quite common for ore qualification experience to be counted, so your story is IMHO, unusual.

 

It is a shame you needed work experience points to be honest, it brings that grey area into the application, surprised you could not get to 60 without it?

[PaulSwann]

Hi Rupert, thanks for your reply. Yes I have been contacted by my co at DIAC and they have given me 28 days to provide further evidence but indicated that they are unlikely to accept my claims for any work experience before I was a member of CIMA. I was also shocked as was convinced from the guidance booklet and my calls to DIAC I had ticked all boxes.

 

If they deem my work experience as not skilled I will then be given the option of withdrawing my application or appealing. I am worried if I appeal and lose this will count against me for future applications and it also reduces the time I have left to obtain a visa. If I do withdraw I risk losing the $3k I paid to lodge the application, I will have to lodge an appeal for a refund which will no doubt take time.

 

I got 30 points for my age, 15 for my qualification, 10 for my IELTS, I missed out on an additional 10 points for IELTS by 0.5 of a band on the written element. Frustrating as if the guidance booklet had indicated that my work experience would only be counted from the date I was officially admitted to CIMA, I could have re-sat IELTS or requested a remark, I also had the option of the 489 visa through my wife's cousin but opted 189 visa based on the guidance booklet. I can still go down the 489 visa but would have to pay again and await there decision on my refund appeal.

[Alan Collett]

Hello Paul.

 

It appears you must await the decision of your case officer - until you know the outcome of the skilled work experience question all else is somewhat academic.

 

As to a $10k migration agent's fee for assisting with your visa application: did you shop around?

 

Best regards.

[blossom]

Yes $10k would be mega expensive, even if it included all your visa fees.

[PaulSwann]

Hi Alan/Blossom,

 

No I did not shop around, I was recommended to the agent and whilst I would normally shop around the price deterred me from looking into it any further. The $10k did not include my visa fees or any additional costs.

 

I'm not normally a pessimist however I'm not holding out much hope on a change of heart from the DIAC. Will await the outcome, I was just hoping to have a clearer idea of my best options if the outcome is as I'm anticipating.

 

Thanks,

 

Paul

[Alan Collett]

Noted - thanks Paul.

 

Good luck with your application - fingers crossed for you (I can do no more, as we aren't acting for you!).

[wrussell]

Hi All,

 

I arrived in Perth in Sep on a 417 working hol visa with my wife. We intended staying in Perth until Jan and then move on to Adelaide or Melbourne. We both got jobs within a week of landing, my wife has a cousin here and we made good friends and settled in quickly. We decided to look into permanent residency and other visa options, I am a CIMA qualified accountant and on the research I did was confident I could achieve the 60 points required. We decided not to use a migration agency as the one we were put in touch with wanted $10k to submit it which we couldn't afford, also based on the guidance provided in the DIAC booklet for 189, 190 & 489 visa it seemed fairly straight forward.

 

I sat my IELTS (overall 8.5, lowest score being 7.5 for written element) and had my skills successfully assessed by CPA. The problem I am having is that DIAC will not recognise my work experience before I became a full member of CIMA in 2011 and which would entitle me to claim no points for overseas employment. I completed all my exams in Nov 2007 and I worked as a management accountant from jan 2006 for a large PLC company, I have references for all my work including a full portfolio signed off by my managers. I have also pulled together a skills matrix which makes it easy to see that I was carrying out all skills required under both ANZSCO and CIMA requirements from 2006. My frustration is that the guidance booklet stipulates that you need to provide references containing particular points, which mine do. It mentions that CPA may provide an opinion, DIAC have acknowledged that it isn't mandatory and even if CPA do acknowledge the work experience as skilled they still probably won't accept it.

 

I expect to hear back from them in next week for a decision on whether they will accept my references and portfolio as sufficient proof of my work experience. Despite the evidence clearly proving I was carrying out all the tasks expected of a management accountant I really don't expect them to change their initial thoughts. I will then have the option of withdrawing my application or appealing.

 

Sorry for the long winded post but any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

 

Paul

An optimist believes this is the best of all possible worlds - a pessimist is sure it is.

 

they are unlikely to accept my claims for any work experience before I was a member of CIMA

 

It is not open to a ministerial delegate to do this, but that does not stop them.

 

For whatever interest it might be, here the advice I give migration agents who consult me for advice about their accounting clients in the Philippines:

 

There was a time when accountants needed a degree assessed as comparable to an Australian degree that satisfactorily covered 9 of the 12 core knowledge areas. Overseas applicants did not study Australian company law or Australian taxation law, so the effectively had to get 9 out of 10.

 

The rules changed so that study of overseas company law and taxation law were accepted. Later the rules changed again so that almost all 4-year Philippine accounting degrees that were underpinned by PRC CPA (Professional Regulation Commission Certified Public Accountant) registration were assessed as comparable to Australian degrees. This got applicants over the first hurdle - holding a relevant degree, but it did not ensure that the required core knowledge areas were covered to the Australian standard.

 

There were previously no mandatory core knowledge areas for the different accounting-related skilled occupations, but now there are - see the attached table.

 

Apart from that, before being able to apply for an accounting skills assessment, accountants must now achieve 7 or better on every subtest of the IELTS academic module.

 

Before it is possible to professionally advise accountants for which (If any) accounting-related discipline they might qualify it is essential to undertake a full review of their syllabi statements from their university. Different students choose different electives and different universities construct courses in different ways.

 

To satisfy the relevant DIAC criterion it used to be necessary to have 12 months work experience in the nominated skilled occupation in the 24 months immediately preceding a visa application and further work experience in the nominated occupation or a 'closely related' occupation to attract migration points.

 

Under the current rules the 12 months in the 24 has been omitted and points are awarded for relevant, paid, full time work experience, going back for 10 years.

 

It can be noted that the accounting assessing bodies do not have work experience one of their criteria, but they are perfectly willing to charge for essentially useless 'points advice'.

 

It is sometimes possible to get accountants through as Internal Auditors via VETASSESS. VETASSESS want to see a 'highly relevant' degree, but they do not bother with compulsory core knowledge - a recognised accounting degree is good enough. The catch is that VETASSESS want evidence of 12 months 'highly relevant' work experience. Here are the criteria for the VETASSESS assessment criteria for Internal Auditors:

 

***************************************************************************************************************************************************

 

Group A

 

Group A Occupations require a qualification which is at least at the level of an Australian Qualifications Framework (AQF) Bachelor degree, in a field highly relevant to the nominated occupation. In addition to this, the applicant must have at least one year of post-qualification employment in a field which is highly relevant and at an appropriate skill level to your nominated occupation completed in the five years before the date of application for a Skills Assessment.

 

Employment needs to be undertaken after completion of the highly relevant qualification. Pre-qualification employment cannot be considered for Group A.

 

 

*********************************************************************************************************************************************

 

When lodging an Expression of Interest it is probably worth noting that Australian employers are not usually willing to make offers to candidates with no local work experience. For examples: no BAS experience and no Australian company law experience make an offer of employment as an accountant unlikely. This leaves skilled independent, state sponsored or provisional family sponsored into a regional area as viable options.

 

My procedure is to have accountants fill up the preliminary assessment form and then tell them and if it looks as if they have reasonable prospects of success I will fully assess their case, but they will have to formally retain my services. My professional fee for this service is AUD $150, which is not really enough for the work involved, reviewing 50+ pages of academic transcripts, syllabi statements and employment certifications/duty statements

**********************************************************************************************************************

If refused you would have a reviewable decision. It would be less costly and much faster to reapply; unless of course you propose to DIY again, in which case it would be less costly.

 

You might be able to make a case to have your relvant work experience accepted; the are Federal Court rulings on this issue - in summary:

 

Taking into account your academic qualifications, training and work experience you were regularly performing relevant (closely related) duties at the required skill level for a relevant period, or you were not.

 

DIAC ministers change the rules more often than they change their underwear. I find it most annoying that people who have done it themselves, or who have not done it at all, are eager to post their advice and opinions on public forums.

 

You are obviously capable of managing your own case, once you know what to do! You cannot find out what to do in all cases from DIAC publications (internet and other) or public forums.

 

With respect, if you known then what you know now, what would you have done?

 

I have highlighted in red the case you must make.

 

If a ministerial delegate informs you that s/he will probably not accept a submission, whatever it might be, this might represent a failure to exercise jurisdiction due to apprehend bias.

 

Best of luck.

[PaulSwann]

Thanks Alan.

 

Thanks also Westly, I appreciate your advice. I did put forward my case based upon the argument you highlighted in red as this was the guidance in the booklet and await the final outcome. However the original response disputes that it was not at a skilled level because I was not a member of an institute.

[fabregas]

An optimist believes this is the best of all possible worlds - a pessimist is sure it is.

 

Employment needs to be undertaken after completion of the highly relevant qualification. Pre-qualification employment cannot be considered for Group A.

 

 

What about Group B?...ACS had put me in ACS PIM 3 group B (261312 Developer Programmer)..I had done One Year Diploma in Computer Science and 6 months Oracle 8 Diploma Back in 1996,2000..I am working as Sr. Developer Programmer in a company since january 2002. I completed my BS Compuer Science in Dec 2005 and my MS Software Engineering in 2010. Will DIAC Considers my Experience Prior to my BS degree..How many points will i get for my Qualifcation and for my Experience?

 

Please pardon me for posting in this thread as I know that this thread is for 189 visa applicants..

[craigyboy]

Hi All,

 

I arrived in Perth in Sep on a 417 working hol visa with my wife. We intended staying in Perth until Jan and then move on to Adelaide or Melbourne. We both got jobs within a week of landing, my wife has a cousin here and we made good friends and settled in quickly. We decided to look into permanent residency and other visa options, I am a CIMA qualified accountant and on the research I did was confident I could achieve the 60 points required. We decided not to use a migration agency as the one we were put in touch with wanted $10k to submit it which we couldn't afford, also based on the guidance provided in the DIAC booklet for 189, 190 & 489 visa it seemed fairly straight forward.

 

I sat my IELTS (overall 8.5, lowest score being 7.5 for written element) and had my skills successfully assessed by CPA. The problem I am having is that DIAC will not recognise my work experience before I became a full member of CIMA in 2011 and which would entitle me to claim no points for overseas employment. I completed all my exams in Nov 2007 and I worked as a management accountant from jan 2006 for a large PLC company, I have references for all my work including a full portfolio signed off by my managers. I have also pulled together a skills matrix which makes it easy to see that I was carrying out all skills required under both ANZSCO and CIMA requirements from 2006. My frustration is that the guidance booklet stipulates that you need to provide references containing particular points, which mine do. It mentions that CPA may provide an opinion, DIAC have acknowledged that it isn't mandatory and even if CPA do acknowledge the work experience as skilled they still probably won't accept it.

 

I expect to hear back from them in next week for a decision on whether they will accept my references and portfolio as sufficient proof of my work experience. Despite the evidence clearly proving I was carrying out all the tasks expected of a management accountant I really don't expect them to change their initial thoughts. I will then have the option of withdrawing my application or appealing.

 

Sorry for the long winded post but any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

 

Paul

Paul withdraw the visa application immediately. I had very much the same issue as yourself but a different profession. However, I have lost 2k as it was a straight refusal. Its a grey area prior graduation experience, but the DIAC are not excepting prior graduation or prior qualification as the necessary skill level. I was a

Director for 10 years prior to graduation!! Could I suggest you resist the IELTS and get the band 8 in each section, or maybe consider a 489 visa. Regardless, Good luck: but withdraw your application in case you lose your money.

[CPAivy]

Hi Paul,

May I ask what degree you took and when did you finish it prior to completing CIMA? I understand that you got 15 points for education qualification.

Thank you.

[PaulSwann]

DIAC have confirmed what I expected that they will not recognize my work experience, they have advised me to withdraw my application and apply for a refund based on the guidance notes not being clear.

 

Craigyboy, thanks for your advice re your personal experience, this is what I'm leaning towards and yes if I do I will attempt the IELTS again and failing that yes go down the 489 visa as my wife's cousin is a PR in WA so should be able to sponsor us via a designated visa to gain an additional 10 points. I have asked the DIAC to confirm that one grandparent in common is sufficient to be classed as a first cousin, although this is the official ruling from my research I can't find confirmation on the DIAC site that this is also there policy.

 

CPAivy, I do not hold a degree, I never went to university so started CIMA from the foundation level and this is adjudged to be equivalent to an Australian Bachelors Degree which entitles me to 15 points for education.

[blossom]

A first cousin is the child of one of your aunts or uncles, so one grandparent in common would indeed be a first cousin.

[PaulSwann]

Thanks Blossom, I looked into it the official definition is that you just need one grandparent in common, I just want confirmation from DIAC before I proceed. Once bitten, twice shy

[craigyboy]

DIAC have confirmed what I expected that they will not recognize my work experience, they have advised me to withdraw my application and apply for a refund based on the guidance notes not being clear.

 

Craigyboy, thanks for your advice re your personal experience, this is what I'm leaning towards and yes if I do I will attempt the IELTS again and failing that yes go down the 489 visa as my wife's cousin is a PR in WA so should be able to sponsor us via a designated visa to gain an additional 10 points. I have asked the DIAC to confirm that one grandparent in common is sufficient to be classed as a first cousin, although this is the official ruling from my research I can't find confirmation on the DIAC site that this is also there policy.

 

CPAivy, I do not hold a degree, I never went to university so started CIMA from the foundation level and this is adjudged to be equivalent to an Australian Bachelors Degree which entitles me to 15 points for education.

Hi Paul,

 

I too wish to consider applying for a 189 visa application fee refund. Could I ask you conider forwarding the necessary information on how I may go about it. In advance I would be extremely grateful of any advice on getting a refund you may have. P.s I lodged a 489 provisional family sponsored visa today, any advice needed, dont hesitiate to ask.

Craig little AKA Craigyboy)

[Katiem]

I am so suprised by this. I was granted my visa as a CIMA accountant and had all of my experience counted but had only been a CIMA member for around 4 months when I submitted my application.

I think the key here is the Uni degree. I was deemed "skilled" from having completed my degree even though it was completely unrelated to accountancy. As you don't have a degree they must count the completion of CIMA as when you became skilled. I'm suprised they took member status rather than exam completion date for this though. Many people don't complete their extended profile but are still CIMA qualified.

 

As others have said, maybe try IELTS again and/or apply for state sponsorship if this is an option?

 

Good luck!

[PaulSwann]

Hi Katie, yes this is down to me having no degree prior to CIMA and it is frustrating they won't accept from the completion date.

 

thanks.

[CPAivy]

I am so suprised by this. I was granted my visa as a CIMA accountant and had all of my experience counted but had only been a CIMA member for around 4 months when I submitted my application.

I think the key here is the Uni degree. I was deemed "skilled" from having completed my degree even though it was completely unrelated to accountancy. As you don't have a degree they must count the completion of CIMA as when you became skilled. I'm suprised they took member status rather than exam completion date for this though. Many people don't complete their extended profile but are still CIMA qualified.

 

As others have said, maybe try IELTS again and/or apply for state sponsorship if this is an option?

 

Good luck!

 

Hi Katiem,

May I ask how many years of skilled employment did CPAA recognised in your case? versus what DIAC acknowledged?

Thank you so much.

[Katiem]

Hi Katiem,

May I ask how many years of skilled employment did CPAA recognised in your case? versus what DIAC acknowledged?

Thank you so much.

 

CPA only reecognised experience from completing the strategic level exams for me so I didn't include that information in my visa application. DIAC recognised all of my working experience (I think - you don't get information from them to confirm.)