Australia the new Greece?

[drizzy]

I agree (to a degree) with MancGeek. Contract IT rates in the UK appear to be significantly higher than in Australia - eg, just as an example, Senior .NET Dev roles for around £500/day seem to be common enough but haven't seen much more than $700/day in Oz. Also as I understand it, there are fewer opportunities for lowering your tax burden in Australia as the IR35 equivalent is better defined (better as in more understandably) and captures more people.

 

With the AUD:GBP exchange rate finally getting to back to 'normal' (when I moved to the UK in 2007 it was about $2.80!), I am struggling to find the incentive in the short term at least to make the move (and a temporary 2 year'ish move it would be). And I have the lure of family etc!

 

I think only tech hub cities in the states (eg San Fran, Seattle) and probably New York can match UK contract rates.

[Johndoe]

I agree (to a degree) with MancGeek. Contract IT rates in the UK appear to be significantly higher than in Australia - eg, just as an example, Senior .NET Dev roles for around £500/day seem to be common enough but haven't seen much more than $700/day in Oz. Also as I understand it, there are fewer opportunities for lowering your tax burden in Australia as the IR35 equivalent is better defined (better as in more understandably) and captures more people.

 

With the AUD:GBP exchange rate finally getting to back to 'normal' (when I moved to the UK in 2007 it was about $2.80!), I am struggling to find the incentive in the short term at least to make the move (and a temporary 2 year'ish move it would be). And I have the lure of family etc!

 

I think only tech hub cities in the states (eg San Fran, Seattle) and probably New York can match UK contract rates.

 

I know sweet bugger all about IT other than my son in the UK has been on contract work since leaving the forces 11 yrs ago. Most of his work is almost identical to that which he was doing in the forces and he arrives at his contracts through a netwrk of (known to him personally), ex forces personnel. He employs a company that has set him up as a limited company, does his "books" for him, and even with that expense and other outgoings, he "cleared" an average of 2800GBP weekly last financial year. Will he consider migrating? Would you?

 

The downside of course is, that he lives from contract to contract, but in those 11 yrs, he has only had a 6 week stint (Xmas) without employment.

[flag of convenience]

The Australian economy is not in a slump, but it is tighter than in previous years and unemployment has risen. Those are factors which I think any potential migrant today needs to consider carefully.

 

However your deduction that this and the exchange rate means you need a higher daily rate makes no sense whatsoever. If you have a job you have a job, why would a fluctuation in the unemployment rate mean you need higher rate? Do you demand a higher rate in the UK as unemployment rises? Likewise why would the movement in exchange rate make any difference, do you think Aussies have all demanded salary increases because the GBP:AUD has shifted? Have you ever looked for a pay increase in the UK due to changes against the Euro or American dollar?

 

A lower Australian dollar does of course have negative side effects to those living here, with the fact that imports become more expensive, at a time of stagnant and in cases falling wages. Hence the poster's possible claim to more being needed.

At the same time houses and holidays become cheaper for foreigners to purchase from abroad raising the cost for those in Australia due to volume of demand.

[JockinTas]

We've seen quite a few bad slumps in Australia over the years. The last few years were apparently boom times. We personally never benefited from them. Just plodded away as per normal. Never been big spenders though. Always saved. We had never had a brand new car until we retired.

[Johndoe]

We've seen quite a few bad slumps in Australia over the years. The last few years were apparently boom times. We personally never benefited from them. Just plodded away as per normal. Never been big spenders though. Always saved. We had never had a brand new car until we retired.

 

My Prado is 16yr old now and was 4 yr old when I bought it. Received an upgraded hire car for free when we visited the UK and was rubbing my hands with glee when I saw it. A Kia Ceed...........that was until I relaised it was auto and I'd never driven an auto in my life. Took my eye off the clock for a minute and Jake yelled at me that I was doing 160K!!!!! I keep out of the driving debate on PIO but all I was doing was keeping up with the flow and yet cars were overtaking me!!!!!! Had to admit it though, I loved it and if it weren't for my back problems, I'd lose the Prado. I hate getting in and out of low cars.

 

Apologies to the OP for digressing.

[flag of convenience]

As the saying goes, compliments cost.

 

Seriously, the nature of your post confirms you are unlikely to succeed in Australua as Australians strongly believe the British are egotistical, arrogant and unwilling to change. You always must remember you are in their country and home and therefore you must change culturally as well as geographically. POM, the Royal Family, Europe, history, taking jobs etc all used against you when here.

 

Only a few people increase their earnings significantly, most stay about the same, some drop however generally compensate in other ways, especially with their families.

 

Tear into me as you wish, I don't care at the moment as my mind is back in the UK with my family after shocking news.

 

S

 

Although going backwards at least for some, somehow devalues the value of migration surely? There are many far cheaper countries to purchase this partly elusive 'lifestyle' claim mentioned by many.

Just how does 'lifestyle' these days come into focus with the high costs of basics? Housing. Eating out. Travel. Far less work security. Declining or stagnating wages for many.

 

I don't think being British has much to do with it. Arrogance is hardly a British thing remembering the numerous Aussies in London that took great delight in pointing out the short comings of UK and bigging up Australia on every given occasion. Most there for the money and international exposure of course unable in Australia to anything like the same degree.

[surfndirt]

MancGeek, sounds like you've got your head screwed on champ. Don't bother with it over here mate. There's no chance of scoring a $1500 a day contracting gig really (I'm sure there are some, but very very rare). For what it's worth... Stay in the UK, buy a 911 turbo (no chance of that over here also) and get a little holiday pad in Spain or Portugal. I am telling ya, Aus is not at all what the UK TV propaganda says it is and, frankly, it's changing for the worse on an almost weekly basis at the moment.

 

If you really want to whole American freeways, square grid, intersection kinda vibe then get off to Texas or sommat for a jolly for 400 quid return. There is nothing here you can't get cheaper and better where you are (or in your immediate area geo).

 

This joint was great for the boomers who came over on the boats and bought a house for 20,000 quid - set up a job and had a whale of a time. Now it is basically a police state with a cost of living that'll make eye's water..... Sounds like you've got it good there dude - tick off the Aus thing as a bad job and enjoy!

[flag of convenience]

We've seen quite a few bad slumps in Australia over the years. The last few years were apparently boom times. We personally never benefited from them. Just plodded away as per normal. Never been big spenders though. Always saved. We had never had a brand new car until we retired.

 

The boom/bust cycle never ended as many anticipated it had. This downturn looks to be a whopper though especially in WA. Probable recession. Still the price of coffee at my favoured local café was increased by 10% yesterday, so have given them the chop and resistance to lowering house prices still strong.

 

Like you besides buying a house in a good location at the 'right' time and benefitting from high interest rates haven't benefitted in other ways at all. More a 'lifestyle' decline if anything as I usually seek value for money, something in rather short supply in recent years.

[surfndirt]

The boom/bust cycle never ended as many anticipated it had. This downturn looks to be a whopper though especially in WA. Probable recession. Still the price of coffee at my favoured local café was increased by 10% yesterday, so have given them the chop and resistance to lowering house prices still strong.

 

Like you besides buying a house in a good location at the 'right' time and benefitting from high interest rates haven't benefitted in other ways at all. More a 'lifestyle' decline if anything as I usually seek value for money, something in rather short supply in recent years.

 

Yeah, I have basically stopped going to;

 

- Pubs

- Bars

- Cafe's

- Bakeries

 

We have our little tipple on a Thurs night (1x six pack lasts me the weekend now) and that's about it. Yes Manc, a six pack of something nice is $20 plus.

[Guest]

Not sure how Australia could be called the new Greece...

 

Been reading the pre election Murdoch papers?

[JockinTas]

Yeah, I have basically stopped going to;

 

- Pubs

- Bars

- Cafe's

- Bakeries

 

We have our little tipple on a Thurs night (1x six pack lasts me the weekend now) and that's about it. Yes Manc, a six pack of something nice is $20 plus.

 

Where do you live surfndirt?

[flag of convenience]

Yeah, I have basically stopped going to;

 

- Pubs

- Bars

- Cafe's

- Bakeries

 

We have our little tipple on a Thurs night (1x six pack lasts me the weekend now) and that's about it. Yes Manc, a six pack of something nice is $20 plus.

 

Your more hard core than me but not by too much.

 

Time for a revolution in thinking in Australia and a search for alternative living practices. Don't partake in the charade offered us as the only way it has got to be.

[MancGeek]

Cheers all for the continued viewpoints. In case it helps any future IT contractors / consultants these are some "back of a fag packet" calculations on financial viability taking into account the differing tax structures:

 

UK Contractor - Senior Level - Pulling 500pd (not my rate but a reasonable one for a decent contractor), assuming 46 weeks billable rate and use of the FRS for VAT. (Excluding company expenses to make comparison with Oz tax structures viable) Assuming outside IR35 and making full use of tax efficiencies in the UK:

 

Gross Billable - 115000 + approx 5750 = 120750.

Rough Salary for the sake of comparison of 10750.

Corporation Tax on resulting profit of 110000 (22000 tax) leaves 88000 for dividends.

28000 approx basic rate at 0% and 60000 @ 25% is dividend take home of 73000.

Add on Salary of 10750 gives a final take home of 83750.

 

Taking the current exchange rate of 2.1 this would be an Oz take home of 175875.

Using Oz tax calculator ( http://www.paycalculator.com.au/ ) this would require an Oz salary of 285000, or 1240 a day over 46 weeks billable.

 

Using the oft mentioned 2.5 rate for equivalent lifestyle, this would be take home in Oz of 209375.

Oz salary requirement of just north of 350000, or 1521 a day over 46 weeks billable.

 

Fully appreciate those who comment on the "lifestyle" choice but there's a difference between an adjustment for the sake of lifestyle and impoverishing yourself in pursuit of a fantasy.

[Guest]

If money is that tight maybe you should stick to boxes of xxxx gold

[flag of convenience]

Not sure how Australia could be called the new Greece...

 

Been reading the pre election Murdoch papers?

 

Well Greece was very ostentatious until the GFC and they were held accountable. The Olympic Games gloss and living standards doubling (along with prices) in a short time. Except a lot of it was leveraged or/and unsustainable.

 

One can but wonder just how long a country (Australia) can sustain GDP on the back of rising housing activity and prices? Already one of the highest personal debited countries in the world it does appear rudderless these days.

 

If resources alone could sustain a country over an extended term then Africa would be booming. Sadly such an industry is determined by international demand. Something outside the control of Australia.

The biggest boom in our history and so little so show for it together with declining revenue. Not a good look. Falling dollar but over priced assets. Just wait for the pressure to reduce standards becomes unstoppable. Cuts in wages/Social Security/ Pensions all on the cards. Not too dissimilar from Greece today.

A different society with of course not mean exactly the same just elements do appear similar.

Oh and out bail out if ever needed will likely come from China. At what price would that be you may well ask.

[Guest]

Might want to check Debt to GDP ratio there flag...

[Guest]

Cheers all for the continued viewpoints. In case it helps any future IT contractors / consultants these are some "back of a fag packet" calculations on financial viability taking into account the differing tax structures:

 

UK Contractor - Senior Level - Pulling 500pd (not my rate but a reasonable one for a decent contractor), assuming 46 weeks billable rate and use of the FRS for VAT. (Excluding company expenses to make comparison with Oz tax structures viable) Assuming outside IR35 and making full use of tax efficiencies in the UK:

 

Gross Billable - 115000 + approx 5750 = 120750.

Rough Salary for the sake of comparison of 10750.

Corporation Tax on resulting profit of 110000 (22000 tax) leaves 88000 for dividends.

28000 approx basic rate at 0% and 60000 @ 25% is dividend take home of 73000.

Add on Salary of 10750 gives a final take home of 83750.

 

Taking the current exchange rate of 2.1 this would be an Oz take home of 175875.

Using Oz tax calculator ( http://www.paycalculator.com.au/ ) this would require an Oz salary of 285000, or 1240 a day over 46 weeks billable.

 

Using the oft mentioned 2.5 rate for equivalent lifestyle, this would be take home in Oz of 209375.

Oz salary requirement of just north of 350000, or 1521 a day over 46 weeks billable.

 

Fully appreciate those who comment on the "lifestyle" choice but there's a difference between an adjustment for the sake of lifestyle and impoverishing yourself in pursuit of a fantasy.

 

Why do you want to move to Australia anyway? Obviously something is missing currently? If you have paid your house off in 4 years you can move most places and not be impoverished, unless your house is worth like 100k

[flag of convenience]

Might want to check Debt to GDP ratio there flag...

 

Check what exactly? Australian personal debt one of the highest in the world. A GDP reliant on housing activity hardly a source for on going prosperity over time. Population increase declining with boom diminishing so the import of people hardly a guaranteed source either.

[MancGeek]

Why do you want to move to Australia anyway? Obviously something is missing currently? If you have paid your house off in 4 years you can move most places and not be impoverished, unless your house is worth like 100k

 

I guess it comes down to seeing a bit of the world. whilst most of my peer group spent their 20's either at uni, starting families or having fun I spent it with my head in technical manuals and books, passing exams and driving my career forwards. I didn't have a holiday from the age of 18 ( I was a college dropout and started stacking shelves for a living at that age) until I went to Oz at 30. The benefit of that now is that whereas the peer group are all now complaining that they don't earn enough, can't afford a house and blaming everyone but themselves for their profligate 20's I'm in a situation whereby I have the freedom to try new things, like working in difference places around the world. However I'm not going to throw away the career I've built for myself to do it given how hard it has been to get to where I am. When I got my visa the exchange rate was 1.5 and I could just about justify working 7 months UK and 5 months Oz so as to not freeze my ass off over here in the winter. Now the macro economic arguments have changed enough that the viability of that scenario doesn't work.

[flag of convenience]

Why do you want to move to Australia anyway? Obviously something is missing currently? If you have paid your house off in 4 years you can move most places and not be impoverished, unless your house is worth like 100k

 

Perhaps sucked up in al the "boom talk', thinking an El Dolardo cat the end of the rainbow in Australia? Although Falling dollar. Expensive country. Less earnings. Hardly encouraging for some.

[wattsy1982]

the changing exchange rate and relative slump in the economy compared to the UK means I'd have to charge a day rate of almost $1500 to equate to my standard of living in the UK. Rates on offer at the moment are around half that

 

If you can earn almost £750 a day ($1500) in the UK and 'only' $750 a day in Aus (£375) I would say that for those of you who say its not all about money (and you're right its not) you could have a much better lifestyle in the UK on £750 a day compared to $750 a day in Aus....surely?

 

Considering the cost of living is much less in the UK and you would be earnign double its a no brainer.

 

On that kind of money, aside from as much sunshine, I fail to see what you couldnt have in the UK

 

Maybe I have this wrong.

 

Dan

[MancGeek]

If you can earn almost £750 a day ($1500) in the UK and 'only' $750 a day in Aus (£375) I would say that for those of you who say its not all about money (and you're right its not) you could have a much better lifestyle in the UK on £750 a day compared to $750 a day in Aus....surely?

 

Considering the cost of living is much less in the UK and you would be earnign double its a no brainer.

 

On that kind of money, aside from as much sunshine, I fail to see what you couldnt have in the UK

 

Maybe I have this wrong.

 

Dan

 

You've got it right Dan (although the differing tax structures of contracting / consulting in the countries make direct comparisons difficult, see earlier post on financials).

 

There's a financial threshold whereby the lifestyle benefits are overridden by the fiscal realities. That threshold changes depending on the relative economic strengths and weaknesses of the two countries and it's pretty skewed in the favour of the UK at the moment having analysed it.

[Guest]

If you can earn almost £750 a day ($1500) in the UK and 'only' $750 a day in Aus (£375) I would say that for those of you who say its not all about money (and you're right its not) you could have a much better lifestyle in the UK on £750 a day compared to $750 a day in Aus....surely?

 

Considering the cost of living is much less in the UK and you would be earnign double its a no brainer.

 

On that kind of money, aside from as much sunshine, I fail to see what you couldnt have in the UK

 

Maybe I have this wrong.

 

Dan

 

Not sure that's true.

 

Having said that why not just have a great 6 month holiday somewhere. Sounds like you have earned it and been missing out the last decade or so...

[surfndirt]

Where do you live surfndirt?

 

Hya, in Melbourne again now... Was in Newcastle, NSW for the last year. I see you are in Gods country. Tassie is great hey.

[surfndirt]

If money is that tight maybe you should stick to boxes of xxxx gold

 

Did that - for a year whilst in Newcastle. Money is not tight, at all.... Just not even remotely interested in being ripped off at every, single, turn. Me and the Mrs just wait for our bi yearly trip to the USA for any kinda consumer stuff (inc eating out).