Can anyone relate to this?

[Waitingawhile]

I am going to stay here for the time being Herbster I know it will take longer than 3 months for me know if its for me. You are right at least I wont have regrets-this is the greatest adventure you could have to stand outside of your comfort zone and try to make it work. To be honest I really like Melbourne and find the isolation thing going on here at bit much but am enjoying the step down from stress. Dont think you are full of hot air at all by the way. lizx

[Herbster]

Thanks Liz;

 

I was thinking later - of course not having all your family - your kids particularly, will be very hard for you. It's not as if they are all grown, living their own lives far away (always a poss these days) & have kids of their own, although then you'd be missing the Grand Parent connection... I'd be interested to see how you felt should they come to visit you, that missing piece might then drop into place...

So what would YOU say are the best bits of Melbourne - & who do you rate for the Cup - or was that yesterday!? I did buy a paper - it was made of paper, note I didn't say Newspaper! so I know Melbourne is Horsey mad @ the mo! But it is nice actually, not seeing the shelves buried under the tabloids that pass for NEWS in the UK, either (I even used to hate selling the rags!! I would have worn rubber gloves, rather than handle them!) - but we still are TV-less so not sure if it was running today! I was wondering; if my folks had a stop-over in Melbourne is it an easy city to walk around & to get to from the airport. When we had a few hours the 1st time, we stayed @ the Holly Inn, which is walkable from the terminal, for us! How easy is it to get downtown from Tulamarine? Are there trolley buses/trams?? Is it true it has the largest market in the Southern Hemisphere, or was that someplace entirely different? Have you been able to explore Victoria, beyond the city - the Great Ocean Rd, Ballerat???

Have a Better Day Gin X

[Guest kimbo67]

Hi i can relate to everything you say. I'm currently trying to set up an internet shop where you can get all things British! subject to Aussie customs of course. I need as many expats as possible to let me know what they are missing? could you help? if everyone could give me a list of just 10 items that they either can't find or have to travel hours to get that would be a fantastic start!! Thanks for your help

[Guest tenquidder]

herbster

 

There's a shuttle bus that runs every 10 - 15 minutes from the airport to Southern Cross Station in the city. Fare is $16. Takes about 20 minutes (outside of peak hour). It's called the Skybus Shuttle.They have a website:

Skybus Super Shuttle

 

Otherwise a cab will cost you about $50.

 

Cheers

[Herbster]

herbster

 

There's a shuttle bus that runs every 10 - 15 minutes from the airport to Southern Cross Station in the city. Fare is $16. Takes about 20 minutes (outside of peak hour). It's called the Skybus Shuttle.They have a website:

Skybus Super Shuttle

 

Otherwise a cab will cost you about $50.

 

Cheers

Hi tenquidder: Thanks very much for that, how nice of you to take the trouble to let me know. And a very Warm Welcome to PIO....

 

Is it safe to say you've been here a while?! And how are you feeling in your adopted home - assuming it is???

 

X

[Guest tenquidder]

Hello herbster

 

No problem, happy to help where I can. I happened to know because although I live in Sydney, up until recently I was commuting regularly to Melbourne for about 2 years.

 

Yes, you guessed right. I came to Sydney from Hucknall, Nottinghamshire as a boy, with my parents. That was in 1960. I recently came across this forum and started reading out of curiousity. Just from reading some of the posts, it is obvious that the migration process is vastly more complex and involved than back in that day. It must add another level of stress to what is already a stressful experience.

 

However other things don't change, like family separation, hope, apprehension, stress, puzzlement at the new and different. I guess that's what struck a chord. In some ways kids are more resilient than adults, and it affected my Mum and Dad more: to me it was just a big adventure.

 

My parents eventually went back, but having found a job here I stayed, and raised 3 children to adulthood. I guess that tells you this is my home, and I think Sydney is a great place.

 

Chris

[Herbster]

Hello herbster

 

No problem, happy to help where I can. I happened to know because although I live in Sydney, up until recently I was commuting regularly to Melbourne for about 2 years...Yes, you guessed right. I came to Sydney from Hucknall, Nottinghamshire as a boy, with my parents. That was in 1960. I recently came across this forum and started reading out of curiosity. Just from reading some of the posts, it is obvious that the migration process is vastly more complex and involved than back in that day. It must add another level of stress to what is already a stressful experience....However other things don't change, like family separation, hope, apprehension, stress, puzzlement at the new and different. I guess that's what struck a chord. In some ways kids are more resilient than adults, and it affected my Mum and Dad more: to me it was just a big adventure....

My parents eventually went back, but having found a job here I stayed, and raised 3 children to adulthood. I guess that tells you this is my home, and I think Sydney is a great place....Chris

Thanks Chris:

 

Really good to hear your story, and glad to know that you settled and found your home here, while your parents clearly didn't on booth counts, but were probably happy in UK; and that could be what happens perhaps, still for older migrants...

For myself, when I emigrated in 1980 to the USA from England, it was so much easier, being young - I hadn't been out of college long, just married, it was all a part of that quest to live my dreams & escape from a very depressing Britain & although the process was invasive and complicated then, & I swore I wouldn't go thru' THAT again, it was nothing compared to what we had to go thru' to get to OZ - 2008! Plus a huge expenditure, so all in all a giant leap of faith...

But for people moving away from all they've known for upwards of 40-yrs, I imagine it is difficulty amassed upon all that they've known & loved during that time... they've become so USED to life as they know it - friends, family, the infrastructure is so well established, to suddenly rip it apart at that stage of life, can not be easy, however much you want it; leaving your offspring behind... starting a whole new LIFE...?

Even myself - 28 years on, having spent the last 15 yrs in UK, seeing my sibs have kids, watching them grow, nurturing their development, working in the family business, & exploring much that UK & beyond has to offer and while being V disgruntled about certain aspects of British life, & being very happy to leave THAT behind, there are other things that I've plain got used to, and England/UK is a hugely different place from 1980 & a whole world away from 1960, when frankly Britain just didn't have IT!...

So there's a certain ambivalence (have we in effect been driven out of our country, rather than honestly choosing to live in another?) For both, me & my partner, to be fair & honest we'd be happier in USA, but that's not an option open to us, therefore, we consider that we are very fortunate to have this opportunity and intend to make the best go of OZ that we can. Already (only here since June 1) we've been able to buy a home - the first time for either of us, which has to count for a VERY big something in favor of Tassie, certainly! I like the people here, we feel comfortable here, the relaxed nature of things in Tas suits us, (but we're a bit eccentric!) the bounty of the nature & wildlife is fab - But ultimately, we just want to get on with our lives, we've got some land now - that I've always hankered after, so I'm going to have to put my money where my mouth is, & get off my fat behind and make that place earn its keep! I'm from a farming background, so am really interested in trying to givepermaculture a go! So quite a long way from Sydney Style, I suspect - but that is the great benefit of a country like OZ, peeps can successfully embrace both, have Options - people, if they realize it, probably do have more scope here to be what they want to be than they might have in the UK (certainly, if it's apart from the norm) - doesn't mean it's going to be easy, but I hope that it is achievable - only good old time will tell... Thanks again, & all the Best!

 

Gin X

[Waitingawhile]

Hi Herbster well I spent 3 days in Melbourne jet lagged and sorry eyed however it was beautiful- it is so easy to get about with trams and buses and lovely to walk in - I would recommend a central location. there are plenty of taxis from airport too! it has a cafe culture and reminded me of Galway for some reason and the people are so great a mix of country folk and city people. Didnt get any further than up the eye and to the beach and would love to go back.

 

You asked about the horse race it has been run and I lost I bet on Baracus

 

Thanks Chris for your shared insight I do agree age may have something to do with it but without my kids who are really men I feel lost -they clearly dont though and are living their lives and loving it lol I guess accepting they want to do their own thing is a new learning curve for me as it must have been for your parents when you stayed. Its amazing what you take for granted -knowing the in jokes the expressions and understanding the humour

 

[Guest tenquidder]

Hi Gin

I think dad was OK to stay, it was mum who felt the emotional pull back to the UK. She was born and bred in Hucknall, never lived anywhere else until moving to OZ. All the things you mention about family, support networks, etc. Especially, she had an older daughter who was married and stayed in the UK. At some point she became divorced with a young family. Looking back, I think that was a powerful factor. As for me, I could just not see the same opportunities back there - as you say, UK back in the 60's and 70's was quite a different place.

Chris

[Guest tenquidder]

Hi Rocki

Please don't think I was suggesting you should try to be more resilient like your children, or that you're letting them down in some way. Kids just experience the world differently, and I was just trying to describe what it was like for me.

 

Good to see you enjoyed Melbourne - it's a great place for having a good time.

 

Chris

[Waitingawhile]

Really found your remarks helpful Chris - I think there are lots of points in life when you stop along the way and really reevaluate plans and goals and redefine what is important to you and this is what is going on for me. Like your Mum and Dad me and my OH reflect the differences -OH loves it here and can readily accept the idea of never going back to the UK. I really used to be embarassed about being from the UK coz of all the atrocious stuff we have done and the medias ownership of all we do and there is so much I dont like about the way life has changed in the last 10 years but........I am now so proud of the good parts of my UK heritage it is untrue and I really identify with some of the comments on here from those going back happily to Blighty. I am not ready however to go back there yet and if I will ever be at all time will tell. I am just learning as I go.......

[Guest tenquidder]

Hi Rocki

I'm glad you find my ramblings helpful, although I'm not quite sure how I'm helping. Like many things in life, there are no easy answers.

 

With my parents, there was definitely an "absence makes the heart grow fonder" factor at work (and with me too). They spent the first 12 months comparing everything back to the UK: the food tasted different, couldn't find the same things in the shops, etc, etc. It's only human to look for the familiar, but of course you set yourself up for disappointment, because it's not the same.

 

I'm not sure what "atrocious stuff" you had in mind, but I thought maybe you were being a teeny bit harsh on the old dart. The place isn't perfect, but then where is? On my last couple of return trips (the last in June ths year), I thought to myself I could quite happily live there. Apart from the climate. And the fact that I have two daughters, a son and a grandson all living (for the time being at least) in Sydney.

 

It just goes to show that it's very much a personal decision. I wish you all the best.

 

Chris

[Waitingawhile]

The one being negative about the Dart wasnt me Chris lol thats where my family is from and it is dear to my heart!!!!!!!! Do you still imagine yourself going back to live then?

[jorose]

Hi all I got my 457 visa and came to WA a the end of July- it has been all I dreamed of for a number of years and yet sometime before I got on the plane I began to rebel I could not acept I was leaving the UK for good. After the main flight we had a few days in Melbourne which I loved (flying this route was cheaper at short notice) then came to WA. Well I have not been so cold in a long time at night -living in a house wih no central heating or double glazing brings you down to earth. I started a 3 month training course for a job I already have and have 9 years experience in- not being uppity just truthful!

 

No matter what I was shown or learnt I kept comparing it to the uk negatively- I was horrified at TV and the lack of Political Corectness and anyone who has seen `hole in wall` where by grown ups try to make themselves into the shape of a hole in a wall and not get pushed into a swimming pool will surely share my dismay. Anyway once we got a rental and my OH saying we will just stay for the year I then went through a process of trying to recreate my routine looking for the brands I knew -going to the hairdressers (she came from the uk early this year and does my hair as good as I have had it) and searching out english sweets - $3 for a cadburys twista bar exorionate but when you need a chocolate treat to pick you up you will pay it -the chocolate here is awful and cakes worse.

 

Anyway two months in and I feel a litle bit different admittedly. I now know about Rennai gas heaters (worth every penny of $550 but better to buy second hand) and every bedroom has an oil filled radiator on special from Target. I dont eat my Twistas often perhaps once every couple of weeks- I buy fresh not ready meals as they are crap! The english butcher provides the best meat ever and fish is out of this world-I have never had a bad meal out just one bad burger from a fast food outlet will be nameless-they just dont do conveniance in the way the UK does but......my bin gets emptied every week even when there is a public holiday and the green bin every two weeks for recycling as well not instead of! .....I have lost a stone........ work is so easy compared to what i was doing in the uk I can`t remember feeling so relaxed and........to my OHs delight they have drive in bottle/liquor stores (OH said they think of everything! bless), OH cooks breakfast every weekend on the barbie. I have come across some of the nicest people and once or twice the worst.

 

Reading the news I am so glad to be here and not listening to the credit crunch day in day out in the uk. Now I sort of feel in a midway place not really a full on Aussiewannabe at heart but dont want to go back to the uk either - perhaps this will continue to change as I get more and more settled but am really interesed in how other people have felt a few months in? I know some have felt quite desperate and I could really relate to this in the first few weeks- in fact I was so upset and confused initially I could not post until now when things are starting to feel a bit better. I hope this makes sense

lizx:twitcy:

 

Thank you for such a lovely honest post. Glad you are settling in better and starting to enjoy yourselves.

 

:spinny:

[Guest tenquidder]

The one being negative about the Dart wasnt me Chris lol thats where my family is from and it is dear to my heart!!!!!!!! Do you still imagine yourself going back to live then?

 

Hi Liz

Sorry if I misinterpreted your earlier comments about being embarrassed to be from the UK, etc. I too am proud of my British heritage. This may sound superficial, but I was serious about the climate being an important factor for me. That and ties to my family. Apart from that, as I said, yes I could probably settle in the UK. But I'm at a stage in my life where I've been through the whole experience of having a young family and a mortgage, etc, and I'm not really qualified to give advice to people in that situation today.

 

For what it's worth, I think you've made the right decision to stick it out and give the place a go.

 

Chris

[Guest Maroochy Mat]

Great thread; extremely helpful to those of us who are preparing to lodge as it highlights situations that we may not have considered.

 

By the way - I'm so glad you're sticking it out despite issues such as the lame TV. If it's any consolation, that TV show you mention is now shown in the UK........and it's hosted by Dale Winton!!

 

Besides, I can't imagine anyone migrates to the land of Oz for the TV. When I was in Queensland last year it amazed me how many repeats of the Antiques Roadshow were on....

 

...apologies for deviating from the saliant topics...just made me remember how pants the telly is.

 

Carry on, I'm enjoying reading this!

[Guest tenquidder]

Hi Mat

 

At the risk of staying off topic, I can remember a time when British telly was worth staying home to watch. Sadly no longer the case as I've discovered on my last couple of trips. I'd say Aussie and UK tv are about on a par.

 

Hope you make it to the sunshine coast, that's a beautiful part of the world as I remember it.

Chris

[Waitingawhile]

Great thread; extremely helpful to those of us who are preparing to lodge as it highlights situations that we may not have considered.

 

By the way - I'm so glad you're sticking it out despite issues such as the lame TV. If it's any consolation, that TV show you mention is now shown in the UK........and it's hosted by Dale Winton!!

 

Besides, I can't imagine anyone migrates to the land of Oz for the TV. When I was in Queensland last year it amazed me how many repeats of the Antiques Roadshow were on....

 

...apologies for deviating from the saliant topics...just made me remember how pants the telly is.

 

Carry on, I'm enjoying reading this!

:eek:Dale Winton has sunk to a new low I cant beleive it yikes! in fact whilst we are all talking bad TV it is so bizarre that we are all on different sides of the world watching Pop/Australian Idol or the Xfactor trying to prove we are smarter than school kids and laughing or is it cringing at Ant and Dec or Hamish and Andy -untrue! I squeeze a couple of hours TV into my busy schedule on Sunday nights, my busy schedule being take partner to safety Bay to kayak (living the dream), and sit in sun, watch partner get swamped by very small so called choppy waves and out manouvered by a fit girl kite skiing lol, (partner now washed up on shore) realise I put factor 30+ every where but on the back of my neck ouch and then off to Rockingham for the very best in fish chips and a scallop on the side yum!:laugh:

[Herbster]

Hi Liz & Everyone:

Sounds good - just like your old UK life - well it's different & sounds good?

 

On the TV theme, as you know we don't have one, we were that impressed with what we saw when we first arrived! HOWEVER, his boss @ work clearly feeling we were somewhat disadvantaged by this lack of modernity, suggested he take home the old Corporate TV... he snuck it in one evening while I was preparing dinner! (Bless! he knows I love my CSI & Who Do You Think You Are...) God-ugly square, old beast, I looked askance feeling slightly offended; I thought, what's that HORRID-LOOKING intrusion doing in our LIVING room, with it's beautiful views over the harbour, channel & Island?... But I had to demonstrate mild enthusiasm & cooperation, so next time at Woolies found a kit for the coaxial... So, after much tempting, teasing & pleading he managed to get a very stormy version of Bowling followed up by a murky flickering contact sport that we decided best left for the true natives to decipher, appreciate & become addicted to!

So to be fair, we look at the TV - we can't avoid but look @ the TV, but we don't turn it on. We walked down to Oyster Cove last night, and came back by moonlight... but still decided we wouldn't want to be buried here (just yet!)...

X

[Waitingawhile]

Hi Herbster Impressed with the TV being a focal point but not used lol dont know whether this a relief it doesnt work very well or not. so feeling low this week it hit like a tidal wave out of no where, had an unsettled day and uncomfortable encounter with a real nerd and it was enough for homesickness to hit me when I got up the next day. it was made worse having watched Mama mia on DVD- a `cheer you up` gift from my other half! This was too smulchy and I was singing songs which reminded me of so much! Bad idea to go down memory lane when low but heyho.

 

Anyway starting canvassing around and people told me to expect the first 6 months to be the worst. One german lady who has been here since 1985 said she went throught the same sort of thing and yet has never wanted to go back -even though she has visited her home country a number of times and enjoys it she also enjoys coming back to OZ and says it is the building of a life with support networks and having routines that keep you here! I too cant say I want to be buried here OH says why would you care after you are gone hmmmmmmmm.:err:

 

Work is good but being overly sensitive is not so good :radar: .

[Mongrel]

Hi Herbster Impressed with the TV being a focal point but not used lol dont know whether this a relief it doesnt work very well or not. so feeling low this week it hit like a tidal wave out of no where, had an unsettled day and uncomfortable encounter with a real nerd and it was enough for homesickness to hit me when I got up the next day. it was made worse having watched Mama mia on DVD- a `cheer you up` gift from my other half! This was too smulchy and I was singing songs which reminded me of so much! Bad idea to go down memory lane when low but heyho.

 

Anyway starting canvassing around and people told me to expect the first 6 months to be the worst. One german lady who has been here since 1985 said she went throught the same sort of thing and yet has never wanted to go back -even though she has visited her home country a number of times and enjoys it she also enjoys coming back to OZ and says it is the building of a life with support networks and having routines that keep you here! I too cant say I want to be buried here OH says why would you care after you are gone hmmmmmmmm.:err:

 

Work is good but being overly sensitive is not so good .

 

We have been here since Feb and she still has her moments she works nites so it always seems to be on a Monday or Manic Mondays as we call them. It can get bad sometimes but it goes, I sometimes get it a bit but not often or severe mostly when I have to imbibe this nectar they call beer :frown:

 

Mally

[Waitingawhile]

Thanks Mally, its good to know there`s more of us than you think. What do you make of Perth given you have been here since Feb- by the way alcohol tends to do that for me too lol

PS are you happy with the range of beer/lager and have you found VB yet? pretty sure there is a bottled tomato juice called vb in the uk - I had to look twice!

[Mongrel]

Thanks Mally, its good to know there`s more of us than you think. What do you make of Perth given you have been here since Feb- by the way alcohol tends to do that for me too lol

PS are you happy with the range of beer/lager and have you found VB yet? pretty sure there is a bottled tomato juice called vb in the uk - I had to look twice!

 

Perth is nice a bit too laiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiid back at times, its beer found a couple of reasonable ones, if you go to Mindarie the INdie brew ery do a couple of nice ones. The feral brewery in the Swan Valley do a nice one, bu Very Bad uggh. The veg juice is V8 not vb lol but you could call it that cabbage water

 

Mally

[Herbster]

Hi Herbster Impressed with the TV...so feeling low this week it hit like a tidal wave out of no where, had an unsettled day and uncomfortable encounter with a real nerd and it was enough for homesickness to hit me when I got up the next day. it was made worse having watched Mama mia on DVD- a `cheer you up` gift from my other half!...reminded me of so much! Bad idea to go down memory lane when low but heyho....canvassing around and people told me to expect the first 6 months to be the worst. One German lady who has been here since 1985 said she went through the same sort of thing and yet has never wanted to go back -even though she has visited her home country a number of times and enjoys it she also enjoys coming back to OZ and says it is the building of a life with support networks and having routines that keep you here! I too cant say I want to be buried here OH says why would you care after you are gone hmmmmmmmm....Work is good but being overly sensitive is not so good .

Clearly the Sentimental Type, Liz! Actually I was quite surprised it was MY OH feeling like this, as when I've discussed the old Grave Site issue in the past, he's had a similar attitude to yr OH: When ur gone ur gone! - So, I've been V surprised that NOW, here, he is truly upset & offend by the wallabies, etc. having free rein over people's final resting places - me, I'd say G'D on ya, so long as it's not Wombats trying to dig me up or Devils looking for a cheap supper! But he's clearly thinking we should be more respectful - he's remembering the old Settler grave sites we've visited in USA, which are all beautifully fenced, with an arched gateway to prevent unwelcome intruders - even long abandoned, in the middle of some forgotten forest - once a settlement for lost Pioneers - & there'd be a Sign too, of commemoration, but no way the wild things could encroach... Could this be a Cultural Indicator?? Maybe people come here to escape - forget their Past...?

 

Your German col is right, too, I'm sure... It does take TIME. I liked living in Michigan, I elt @ home, looking over the Lake, being able to exercise the horses several times a week, had my good friends, I liked it all real well (as they'd say) but work was the bummer: we couldn't get out of it, & we couldn't buy our own home, so when X, was offered a good opportunity in Chicago & for me to run the RE office, even thu' I hate cities, I jumped! I had to kick OH into going & taking the plunge, because I recognized the potential, if not for me, for him (how foolish can one be!? :swoon:) Sure enough I was home sick for the 1st yr or so, it was a long drive back thru the city to see my old friends (of course OH liked it!) & if I wanted to ride on the wkend it wasn't really doable very often... But little by little you make new friends, you get used to a place, as your mate says, build support networks, an infrastructure of familiarity - from our 8th flr apt we looked over the park w/interesting views to the Lake, so I wasn't hemmed in - I could ride my bike, Chicago is a fab city. Then when I was on my own, living in a 3-flat, my neighbors were fab - I was invited to their Celebrations - Thanksgiving, Christmas, it was a Gay community, but even so I was welcomed & have some wonderful memories of that time - but after 5-yrs, the stress, noise, the superficiality & competitiveness of city life wore me down, so after 6 yrs I moved a couple hundred miles north, back to the land, to Wisconsin, with my closest neighbor 1/2 mile, closest village 5 miles... Bliss!

Sort of like our new home will be - but for me, even OH, it's not the same as what I had or what we would like in UK, not the same at all... I can't put my finger on it - but we are both very much of the opinion that it is the lack of Continuity, Connectedness that is missing. Even in a young country like America, you still feel it has been inhabited by people, cultures for millennia, the Native American culture is something I find truly enriching & touching, but here we've never sensed that... In UK, Europe, Asia... you feel that connectedness with the Past, it's clearly evident Everywhere, it's all around you, like a spiders web reaching out from a tangled but definable core; you are connected to a Past, to a History, our collective Past, but here, in Oz, we don't feel that; there's little sense of anyone belonging to anything (other than sport related...!) Tas did a great job of eradicating, almost to extinction, its indigenous population, & I think it's natural to feel somewhat embarrassed by that, although we can't be responsible for craziness that happened long ago, but we can certainly learn from it, so History doesn't repeat...(So why are they still felling old growth timber, burning & pulping, leaving the native creatures homeless, to become themselves another dismal statistic...?)

Don't s'pose this will make you feel any better; more grist for the mill...

It might help, to just look on this time as a cultural fact-finding mission, an extended learning experience... My problem is that I'm too darn adaptable & am quite in danger of liking my 1st Own Home... but still there's that Hope & Belief that one day I will be able to go Home - just hopefully not in an urn!! :swoon:

Hope this week gets better for you Liz... Hugs X

[Waitingawhile]

Oh wow that was a week of pure home sickness like nothing I could have expected then by Friday morning it had lifted some. I am the sentimental type you are so right!

 

The lack of historical evidence or anything to connect with the past of this country is pitiful and alarming in some respects, there are small museums, very badly funded, sparsely dotted about and very tiny telling the story of very small communities belonging to settlers. I guess in terms of being a much smaller population than the USA this lack of history is reflected however there is also a lack of being invited in to share the indigenous culture on any grand scale although I know it is there and as rich and wonderful as any in this world-the belief in the spirit world exisiting as part of the whole life experience every day, the yarning and the dancing! Anyone seeing the dances of various animals mimiced by the dancers will know how deep the understanding of this native people of their land and how harmful it has been for them to be disconnected. The commitment within the culture to keeping a balance in the land and looking after the animals and plants was there before western civilisation brought change good and bad-we cant be blamed for what went before but we can acknowledge it so we can try to find a way in moving on but anyway........perhaps they dont want to remember the bad or am I a cynic!

 

Getting off my high horse are you any nearer to getting your own lol! lizxxx