ENS 186 - Impact of leaving employer

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, InnerVoice said:

It would be helpful if you could add mention what your job is? There are only a few professions (teacher, nursing, doctors, spring to mind) where you'd be better off going down the skilled route (189/190) as opposed to a ENS/186, which pretty much guarantees the applicant and their family PR in Australia.

Hi - It's not relevant to the profession for me. This is moving quite far away from the original post, but some points which are relevant (and my own views and those i know here who have moved in the last 12 months) are:

- the employer - regardless of profession, you don't know any employer until you are there and it has huge impact. 

- location - you can do a hefty amount of research but until you are actually here and settled in financially, you can't really get a handle on if you have landed in the location right for you, which is connected to your job due to commute times, affordability, etc. 

- Opportunity - To be quite frank, other opportunities can present themselves which can make a significant difference to you personally and professionally. In a cost of living crisis, major inflation, property prices escalating, interest rates, in short periods of time. 

- Family settling - you may settle, but others may not.

Not all of the above is specific to my circumstances, but some are from my expat connections here. One of whom has found it terribly hard to settle her child in, others moved to an area where house prices have increased 300k since arrival, so it's now priced them out. On that one, our rental budget had to increase $350 per week, based on the properties around us, i expect it may go up another $200 per week in June. 

These are all very real factors that you can't fully plan for or predict before you arrive here, and i was very well researched. 

To me, the freedom of being able to move would feel less stressful. 

If you are dependent on the sponsorship financially, that's a call to make based on the individual. 

[Marisawright]

1 hour ago, InnerVoice said:

There are only a few professions (teacher, nursing, doctors, spring to mind) where you'd be better off going down the skilled route (189/190) as opposed to a ENS/186, which pretty much guarantees the applicant and their family PR in Australia.

I couldn't disagree more.

I agree that the 189/190 is a lottery but once you've got it, you've got your PR and are free to do any job you like and live anywhere you like. 

With the 186, IF your employer knows what they're doing (not all do), you can be pretty confident you'll get the visa -- but it comes at a cost. Take a browse around these forums and you'll find legions of people who found themselves trapped in situations where the employer takes advantage of the situation.  Not giving pay rises or bonuses, demanding unreasonable unpaid overtime, and so on.   The employee has to put up with it, because they can't afford to pay back the relocation costs and/or they're afraid they'll lose their visa if the employer complains. It's especially rife in the hospitality industry but it also happens in corporate environments.  

[BendigoBoy]

51 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

I couldn't disagree more.

I agree that the 189/190 is a lottery but once you've got it, you've got your PR and are free to do any job you like and live anywhere you like. 

With the 186, IF your employer knows what they're doing (not all do), you can be pretty confident you'll get the visa -- but it comes at a cost. Take a browse around these forums and you'll find legions of people who found themselves trapped in situations where the employer takes advantage of the situation.  Not giving pay rises or bonuses, demanding unreasonable unpaid overtime, and so on.   The employee has to put up with it, because they can't afford to pay back the relocation costs and/or they're afraid they'll lose their visa if the employer complains. It's especially rife in the hospitality industry but it also happens in corporate environments.  

Absolutely agree, wholeheartedly.  Especially for the tech sector.  

I'm in a bit of a niche place, but I always caution engineers against staying in a role for longer than 18 months to 2 years while they're developing their skills.  For one, they'll end up going stale in a hell of a lot of workplaces, and - quite mercenary, maybe, but nevertheless true - they'll only really take home what they're truly worth by jumping ship the majority of the time.

Being bound to an employer for a two year period, particularly with all the unknown unknowns that come with that (poor management, dick colleagues, dislike of locale), would be extremely offputting for me.  It was a 189 or nothing, in my case.

[InnerVoice]

On 08/02/2024 at 11:17, Constance said:

Adding to this again... 

As a lesson learned to others looking at this and skilled stream. 

I was almost through the independent skilled route and flipped to the ENS last minute due to unknowns in processing times. This was a mistake for me, I should have carried on as the independent as I would have got the job anyway, it would not have cost more and without the strings. 

Just a note of my personal experience should anyone find themselves in the same position looking at these options. 

Sponsorship can seem like the ultimate win but it's not all it's cracked up to be and I wish I'd stayed on my own track. 

 

3 hours ago, Constance said:

Hi - It's not relevant to the profession for me. This is moving quite far away from the original post

Respectfully, it was you who steered the conversation away from the original topic with your earlier post (above).

Whether you could've got the job independently is irrelevant if you couldn't have obtained a visa. I'm sure there are many Australian employers who would be happy to employ overseas workers if they didn't have to sponsor them. As you mentioned, the reason you didn't go down the skilled route was due to unknowns in processing times, but given the competitiveness of the skilled pathway there's absolutely no guarantee that you (or anyone for that matter) would be granted a 189 or 190 visa.

[InnerVoice]

4 hours ago, Marisawright said:

I couldn't disagree more.

I agree that the 189/190 is a lottery but once you've got it, you've got your PR and are free to do any job you like and live anywhere you like. 

With the 186, IF your employer knows what they're doing (not all do), you can be pretty confident you'll get the visa -- but it comes at a cost. Take a browse around these forums and you'll find legions of people who found themselves trapped in situations where the employer takes advantage of the situation.  Not giving pay rises or bonuses, demanding unreasonable unpaid overtime, and so on.   The employee has to put up with it, because they can't afford to pay back the relocation costs and/or they're afraid they'll lose their visa if the employer complains. It's especially rife in the hospitality industry but it also happens in corporate environments.  

I wouldn't dispute any of this for a moment but beggars can't be choosers, can they? Not everyone is in demand as much as Liam Neeson with his very special particular skill set.

Most of us at one time or another have worked in job for a couple of years that we didn't enjoy as a stepping stone to greater things, and once you've done those two years you're a free agent. 'Character building', my father would've called it.

[Marisawright]

29 minutes ago, InnerVoice said:

I wouldn't dispute any of this for a moment but beggars can't be choosers, can they? 

Beggars can't be choosers -- which means, people who can't manage to get what they really want, have to settle for something. 

Whereas in your original post, you said the 186 was better than the 189 or the 190 (and I quote, "There are only a few professions (teacher, nursing, doctors, spring to mind) where you'd be better off going down the skilled route (189/190) as opposed to a ENS/186).

 

[InnerVoice]

48 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

Beggars can't be choosers -- which means, people who can't manage to get what they really want, have to settle for something. 

Whereas in your original post, you said the 186 was better than the 189 or the 190 (and I quote, "There are only a few professions (teacher, nursing, doctors, spring to mind) where you'd be better off going down the skilled route (189/190) as opposed to a ENS/186).

I'm sure a discussion about semantics isn't going to be of much benefit to anyone, but clearly the term better off going down the skilled route implies a greater chance of success, where as better than means exactly that. I totally agree that the 189 or 190 are better visas to hold, but you might be waiting forever to get one - if at all. Bird in hand, as they say.

[Marisawright]

2 hours ago, InnerVoice said:

I'm sure a discussion about semantics isn't going to be of much benefit to anyone, but clearly the term better off going down the skilled route implies a greater chance of success, where as better than means exactly that. I totally agree that the 189 or 190 are better visas to hold, but you might be waiting forever to get one - if at all. Bird in hand, as they say.

It's not semantics if you express it badly, and what you said could only be interpreted as "the 186 is better than the 189 for most people".  I'm glad you've now clarified that's not what you meant, for the sake of anyone finding this thread in the future.

[Msmit]

hey, 

i work in hospitality I've been here for 18 months and i am due to apply for 186 very soon, over the past 18 months 4 of the chefs i have worked with have received there 186, all have left within 3 months with no repercussions. some within weeks and ive heard of a couple previously who just stopped turning up. a few changed industries.

one of the chefs advised me that his agent had told him the terminology on staying is loose "expected" is not have to, it wouldn't be a residency if your still tied to the job just a visa(he used a agent known in his community over the employers agent).

but its best to have a valid excuse the easiest being asking for a pay rise and being refused, or being offered a higher paying job. that way if you are asked you have a response.

this would likely happen if you applied for citizenship. 

as far as i am aware there is very little your employer can do with out more cost expenditure to themselves, however this is all workplace gossip and be taken with a pinch of salt.

[Marisawright]

44 minutes ago, Msmit said:

i work in hospitality I've been here for 18 months and i am due to apply for 186 very soon, over the past 18 months 4 of the chefs i have worked with have received there 186, all have left within 3 months with no repercussions. some within weeks and ive heard of a couple previously who just stopped turning up. a few changed industries.

I'm sure you're right.  The downside of this, of course, is that those employers may never sponsor anyone for a 186 again.  They'll just keep hiring on 482s, with a promise of the 186 at the end, then pretend they've changed their mind.  After all, the 186 is a lot of work and expense for the employer, so why should they do it if there's a good chance the employee will p*** off as soon as they've got it?  

It's the same as the 'moral obligation' to stay in one state for the 190.  There's probably no repercussions for the person who does it, but it spoils the scheme for everyone else down the track.