Guest defencenurse1 Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Hi Gothicqueen Individuality is alive and well in brisbane. Myself and husband used to go out in the village in manchester so are used to wearing alternative clothing. You can be as individual as you want here and do not usually get a second look. We love being indivudual and at least dont get the comments off friends over here like we did in the uk. We are from Oldham and would love to converse with others from the area. Good luck and hope everything runs smoothly for you. You both look fantastic. love Wendy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest12791 Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I think we are going to have to have a Gothfest over in Oz, and all the lapsed goths and closet goths are going to have come and show their true colours (black and a bit of purple or red obviosley!!!!) It could be a bit like the old punks picnics I used to go on in my youth........... (way back when LOL) so whos up for a gothsgettogether then......! Emos, hippies and anyone verging on strangeness is welcome too (so think that covers just about the entire PIO members then) Hey !! count us in when we arrive, love tad (annemarie x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BrisbaneReturners Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 hi, my friends and i used to be part of a big goth community when we were younger.. we used to mix with all sorts and did heaps of reinacting as well (12th century mostly).. anyhoo.. there is a huge HUGE goth and alternative community in brisbane.. massive! you'll fit in fine.. and re work.. don't worry at all about that i've seen heaps of goths at work aging and otherwise! earings, weird hair etc etc.. aussies are far more liberal than brits about this sort of thing i've found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest itskaren Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Hi Guys, I know this is going to sound odd but how do the Ozzies react to people who look shall we say a little different??? Im an ageing goth, I know at my age I should grow out of it and get rid of the peircings and dye my hair from purple to something more natural but..... after 20 years of being this way I just cant beocme 'normal'! Ive never had an issue in the Uk getting employment, I currently work as a careers and employment advisor with the prison and probation service (advising ex offenders that is) so my question is, am I going to have to change to gain employment when we get to Oz? I know it probably seems an unimportant thing to some people but this is who I am and I am worried that If I have to change its going to really have a negative effect on me :v_SPIN: No offence but I would not employ you at all in anything. I'm sure you are a very nice man! xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gothicqueen Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 No offence but I would not employ you at all in anything. I'm sure you are a very nice man! xx WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am a woman....the name gothicQUEEN should have given that away, also the fact that I am called HELEN why wouldnt you employ me? What would that be based on, appearence or my ability to do a job, or is just because you are narrow minded (and I mean that in the sense that are you frightened of something you dont understand)? Please could you give me reasons why as this may help me with my job search in Oz. You see I would so hate to become a faceless person without my own style and personality, but your answer may help tailer where in Oz I am going to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest itskaren Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am a woman....the name gothicQUEEN should have given that away, also the fact that I am called HELEN why wouldnt you employ me? What would that be based on, appearence or my ability to do a job, or is just because you are narrow minded (and I mean that in the sense that are you frightened of something you dont understand)? Please could you give me reasons why as this may help me with my job search in Oz. You see I would so hate to become a faceless person without my own style and personality, but your answer may help tailer where in Oz I am going to go[/quo I apologse! I was looking at the photo and the main person is a man! We employed about 50 people (in the UK) one stage in a busy retail shop (closed shop due to government taxes on small businesses). I would not employ anyone who just didn't look presentable especially working with the public. I have come across all sorts of peopel (I used to work for the police force as a medical forensic examiner) so you can imagine all types of people that are held in custody. I have met some of the nicest people ever but first impressions do count. If you have someone that looks scary and not presentable your chances of a job are limited. Call me old fashioned! good luck in job hunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest itskaren Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 I apologse! I was looking at the photo and the main person is a man! We employed about 50 people (in the UK) one stage in a busy retail shop (closed shop due to government taxes on small businesses). I would not employ anyone who just didn't look presentable especially working with the public. I have come across all sorts of peopel (I used to work for the police force as a medical forensic examiner) so you can imagine all types of people that are held in custody. I have met some of the nicest people ever but first impressions do count. If you have someone that looks scary and not presentable your chances of a job are limited. Call me old fashioned! good luck in job hunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gothicqueen Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 I apologse! I was looking at the photo and the main person is a man! We employed about 50 people (in the UK) one stage in a busy retail shop (closed shop due to government taxes on small businesses). I would not employ anyone who just didn't look presentable especially working with the public. I have come across all sorts of peopel (I used to work for the police force as a medical forensic examiner) so you can imagine all types of people that are held in custody. I have met some of the nicest people ever but first impressions do count. If you have someone that looks scary and not presentable your chances of a job are limited. Call me old fashioned! good luck in job hunting. Well I find that quite amusing. Before I worked as I do now for the probation service, I spent 10 years as a Retail manager, I worked for Body shop, WH Smiths and Superdrug. I ran a £3million turn over store with 30 staff working under me. I was also an area sales manager for another company. I looked exactly as I do now. I DO look presentable, I wear a suit when the need arrises (a black one obv!) and have never been turned down for a job due to my appearance. With regard to first impressions and appearences, Ive worked in probation and prisons for over a year and I have yet to come across anyone who looks 'alternative' shall we say, by this I mean in regards to the offenders I see, 9 out of 10 of them are burberry/tracksuit wearing 'chavs' and we actually had a debate in oneof the offices that I work in about it, with the general consensus being that given the choice most of them would prefer their kids to be 'alternative' rather than 'chav' purely based on the clientelle we see, thats obv not to say that goths/emos etc dont break the law, Im sure there are some cases that they do, but the offices I work in could oly remember one guy. As for lookng scary! that too amuses me, people have misconceptions of us, and I dont think its that we look scary, I think its more that people are scared of what they dont understand. Although I must admit that if I saw someone with a shaved head, tracksuit bottoms tucked into his pants and heavy gold jewellery on, I would possibly cross the road, but that just maybe because of knowing the offences of the guys I work with, so maybe I am also guilty of beingprejudiced. Have you thought of the possibility that you may be missing out on good hardworking staff by being prejudiced against people like myself? Im really interested to know what peoples opinion are, which is why I am asking you so many questions, especially as in the UK I have never come across people being against me due to my appearance, so this is why I want to know what Australian employers would think, and if they judge just by appearance than skills and personality, which are far more important than the colour of someones hair. I look forward to your response Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracy123 Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Well I find that quite amusing. As for lookng scary! that too amuses me, people have misconceptions of us, and I dont think its that we look scary, I think its more that people are scared of what they dont understand. Although I must admit that if I saw someone with a shaved head, tracksuit bottoms tucked into his pants and heavy gold jewellery on, I would possibly cross the road, but that just maybe because of knowing the offences of the guys I work with, so maybe I am also guilty of beingprejudiced. I look forward to your response Hi Helen I think you know I love you (truth is I love all you woman) But Goths do look different you do look twice, as I do with punks and people with there fly un-done cant help but look at that one. I think though you dress for your job. work is work and play is play. I've never been in a position to hire someone but I think I would think twice about hiring someone that turned up looking out of place. They would have to interveiw very well. I don't own a suit but i think if i wanted to work in some fields i would need to buy one for a job interview its not me, i like shorts n t-shirt and people look at me strange when its raining or snowing and i wear my shorts out but i dont care what people think because im happy its my time. But when i go to work i wear slacks and a collared t-shirt and pollished boots because thats what my employee wants Sorry to butt my noise in hope we are still friends Geoffrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gothicqueen Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 of course we are still friends Geoffery #I welcome other peoples opinion which is why I posted the thred in the first place. with regard to work wear, I obv wouldnt go to work dressed in a corset and floor length skirt and knee high PVC boots (steady on geoffery!) At Smiths I had to wear a suit, which i happily did, superdrug and bodyshop we had uniforms to wear (black ones Luckily!) Probation is alot more casual and we can wear whatever we want, but I chose to dress possibly more 'hippy' than got, today for example I am wearing a fifties style dress and leggings.... from primark. Makeup is toned down for work, not such a pale foundation and less eyeliner, but I still wear some and haveblack nail varnish all the time The only thing that doesnt change is my hair which is purple and black and I get so many positive comments about it from all sorts of people (old ladies seem to like it for some reason!) and my nose ring which has been there for 20 years and never caused any issues In retail I interviewed more people than I can rememebr and appearance never came into it, what was important to me was that they interviewed well and they were able to communicate well being as it was a customerfacing role. I like people looking at me twice, so carry that on, I love the attention, if I didnt I wouldnt dress like this, I must say though if I see a mans fly undone I blush and couldnt look there again...... but I think I know what you mean, abit likje not wanting to look at a car crash but rubber necking........ I think people should get to know someone first, then we wouldnt have the tragedies like poor Sophie Lancaster happening again, but there are narrow minded poeple who prejudge someone beofore knowing anything about them. i suppose in some respects its similar to racism, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracy123 Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 thanks Helen I glad you understood where i was coming from. I clicked your chicken for a great post Geoffrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest12791 Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 of course we are still friends Geoffery#I welcome other peoples opinion which is why I posted the thred in the first place. with regard to work wear, I obv wouldnt go to work dressed in a corset and floor length skirt and knee high PVC boots (steady on geoffery!) At Smiths I had to wear a suit, which i happily did, superdrug and bodyshop we had uniforms to wear (black ones Luckily!) Probation is alot more casual and we can wear whatever we want, but I chose to dress possibly more 'hippy' than got, today for example I am wearing a fifties style dress and leggings.... from primark. Makeup is toned down for work, not such a pale foundation and less eyeliner, but I still wear some and haveblack nail varnish all the time The only thing that doesnt change is my hair which is purple and black and I get so many positive comments about it from all sorts of people (old ladies seem to like it for some reason!) and my nose ring which has been there for 20 years and never caused any issues In retail I interviewed more people than I can rememebr and appearance never came into it, what was important to me was that they interviewed well and they were able to communicate well being as it was a customerfacing role. I like people looking at me twice, so carry that on, I love the attention, if I didnt I wouldnt dress like this, I must say though if I see a mans fly undone I blush and couldnt look there again...... but I think I know what you mean, abit likje not wanting to look at a car crash but rubber necking........ I think people should get to know someone first, then we wouldnt have the tragedies like poor Sophie Lancaster happening again, but there are narrow minded poeple who prejudge someone beofore knowing anything about them. i suppose in some respects its similar to racism, Hi there:shocked: i would employ you goth queen! i have found over many years that it is the person behind the clothes thats important, you can have the smartest dressed person with absolutely no personality, no communication or interpersonnal skills Thats scary!!!!! can i say lets look at the uniform code for many organisations emhh! primark black! marks and spencers black! yates wine bar black! most theatres black! need i go on. You obviously wouldnt wear a corset and pvc to work throughout the day, unless you work in an alternative shop. You will be fine and good luck to anyone who employs you with your fab personality!!! Annemarie Tad:notworthy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest moonraker1961 Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 I totally agree with Tad xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest earlswood Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Hi Guys, I know this is going to sound odd but how do the Ozzies react to people who look shall we say a little different??? Im an ageing goth, I know at my age I should grow out of it and get rid of the peircings and dye my hair from purple to something more natural but..... after 20 years of being this way I just cant beocme 'normal'! Ive never had an issue in the Uk getting employment, I currently work as a careers and employment advisor with the prison and probation service (advising ex offenders that is) so my question is, am I going to have to change to gain employment when we get to Oz? I know it probably seems an unimportant thing to some people but this is who I am and I am worried that If I have to change its going to really have a negative effect on me :v_SPIN: Gothicqueen... Northbridge is full at the weekends with bikers goths and Queens...you will look normal. A variety of entertainment brings Northbridge to life with DJs, live bands and nightclubs. The calendar of annual events held in Northbridge includes: Jan/Feb Perth International Arts Festival (arts, parades, concerts) Feb Carnival Latino (masqueraders, puppets and parades) Mar Perth Food and Wine Festival Nov Pride Parade celebrating Perth's gay and lesbian community. And loads of Goth's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gothicqueen Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Hi there:shocked: i would employ you goth queen! i have found over many years that it is the person behind the clothes thats important, you can have the smartest dressed person with absolutely no personality, no communication or interpersonnal skills Thats scary!!!!! can i say lets look at the uniform code for many organisations emhh! primark black! marks and spencers black! yates wine bar black! most theatres black! need i go on. You obviously wouldnt wear a corset and pvc to work throughout the day, unless you work in an alternative shop. You will be fine and good luck to anyone who employs you with your fab personality!!! Annemarie Tad:notworthy: Oh thanks ann marie, I really appreciate that Its funny as the official colours of probation are purple and black, so I 'fit in' perfectly I blend in with all the letter heads and signs LOL. Its good to hear from people who are aware of the different cultures in Oz, so thanks too Earlswood, the places you aretalking about are they in Perth? Im really looking forward to tryingout new places and what have you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest12791 Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Oh thanks ann marie, I really appreciate that Its funny as the official colours of probation are purple and black, so I 'fit in' perfectly I blend in with all the letter heads and signs LOL. Its good to hear from people who are aware of the different cultures in Oz, so thanks too Earlswood, the places you aretalking about are they in Perth? Im really looking forward to tryingout new places and what have you! You are welcome gothqueen, take care, annemarie x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest itskaren Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Well I find that quite amusing. Before I worked as I do now for the probation service, I spent 10 years as a Retail manager, I worked for Body shop, WH Smiths and Superdrug. I ran a £3million turn over store with 30 staff working under me. I was also an area sales manager for another company. I looked exactly as I do now. I DO look presentable, I wear a suit when the need arrises (a black one obv!) and have never been turned down for a job due to my appearance. With regard to first impressions and appearences, Ive worked in probation and prisons for over a year and I have yet to come across anyone who looks 'alternative' shall we say, by this I mean in regards to the offenders I see, 9 out of 10 of them are burberry/tracksuit wearing 'chavs' and we actually had a debate in oneof the offices that I work in about it, with the general consensus being that given the choice most of them would prefer their kids to be 'alternative' rather than 'chav' purely based on the clientelle we see, thats obv not to say that goths/emos etc dont break the law, Im sure there are some cases that they do, but the offices I work in could oly remember one guy. As for lookng scary! that too amuses me, people have misconceptions of us, and I dont think its that we look scary, I think its more that people are scared of what they dont understand. Although I must admit that if I saw someone with a shaved head, tracksuit bottoms tucked into his pants and heavy gold jewellery on, I would possibly cross the road, but that just maybe because of knowing the offences of the guys I work with, so maybe I am also guilty of beingprejudiced. Have you thought of the possibility that you may be missing out on good hardworking staff by being prejudiced against people like myself? Im really interested to know what peoples opinion are, which is why I am asking you so many questions, especially as in the UK I have never come across people being against me due to my appearance, so this is why I want to know what Australian employers would think, and if they judge just by appearance than skills and personality, which are far more important than the colour of someones hair. I look forward to your response I don't doubt at all for a minute that you have ability Helen. But you have asked the question! I am just merely stating that I for one would not employ you if you turned up in my workplace as a 'goth'. It is not professional in my opinion. Lots of people disagree with me so you have your answer there. I am not trying to be argumentative. I am glad there appears to be people who would be quite happy to employ you. I would not. kind regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gothicqueen Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I don't doubt at all for a minute that you have ability Helen. But you have asked the question! I am just merely stating that I for one would not employ you if you turned up in my workplace as a 'goth'. It is not professional in my opinion. Lots of people disagree with me so you have your answer there. I am not trying to be argumentative. I am glad there appears to be people who would be quite happy to employ you. I would not. kind regards I hadnt suggested you were being argumentative, its called a debate! I wanted to know your reasons why you felt so strongly about it that you would take one look at a person and decide they were 'not professional' mereley for their choice of hair colour or clothing attire. To make a statement like that is in my opinion 'not professional' especially as a manager of a business, Im surprised you have been taken to a tribunal to be honest. I think the answers I have had off the majority of people have shopwed me that there isnt going to be an issue with gaining employment as people in Australia seem to be more open minded to individualism, except you that is. You have come across as very narrow minded if you dont mind me saying and Im glad I have NEVER come across an employer like you. Maybe you should embrace some different cultures, you never know you might actually find you enjoy the company of more diverse people. In my working life I have come across all sorts of people from murderers who have served lengthy prison sentances, to paedophiles to school leavers with no qualifications, to young asian girls who have just come to this country and know nothing of our cultures and language, and I am proud to say I have never judged anyone by their appearance. Good luck to you Vul I really hope you change your opinion of people 'like me' who express themselves in a slightly different way. Let me know who you work for, Ill make a mental note NOT to apply for a job there, on second thoughts I could become your manager, now that would be interesting!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest itskaren Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I hadnt suggested you were being argumentative, its called a debate! I wanted to know your reasons why you felt so strongly about it that you would take one look at a person and decide they were 'not professional' mereley for their choice of hair colour or clothing attire. To make a statement like that is in my opinion 'not professional' especially as a manager of a business, Im surprised you have been taken to a tribunal to be honest. I think the answers I have had off the majority of people have shopwed me that there isnt going to be an issue with gaining employment as people in Australia seem to be more open minded to individualism, except you that is. You have come across as very narrow minded if you dont mind me saying and Im glad I have NEVER come across an employer like you. Maybe you should embrace some different cultures, you never know you might actually find you enjoy the company of more diverse people. In my working life I have come across all sorts of people from murderers who have served lengthy prison sentances, to paedophiles to school leavers with no qualifications, to young asian girls who have just come to this country and know nothing of our cultures and language, and I am proud to say I have never judged anyone by their appearance. Good luck to you Vul I really hope you change your opinion of people 'like me' who express themselves in a slightly different way. Let me know who you work for, Ill make a mental note NOT to apply for a job there, on second thoughts I could become your manager, now that would be interesting!!!! I suppose a lot of people are worried about the 'PC brigade' to be honest about it! As I have said I too have come across ALL walks of life but it still does not change my opinion. Appearance does count. Not interested in this thread anymore. Good Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracy123 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Its good to hear from people who are aware of the different cultures in Oz, so thanks too Earlswood, the places you aretalking about are they in Perth? Im really looking forward to tryingout new places and what have you! Earlswood promoting Perth :skeptical:!!!!????? I don't think he likes you Helen LMAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roma 1 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 well gothic queen, i believe everybody has the right to express themselves and wear and look what they like . it is YOU and your style. i and my daughher aged 10 love your hair ( she has a purple clip om piece of hair and a pink one and even at her age she gets funny looks (has to come out for school though!!) but she doesn't care. she will be want she wants to be ,it is her life and we will let her choose her own path.i was born abit too late for the hippy era but still dress with the indian prints etc and have dyed my hair blue, green anf bright red (going back to red and gold highlites soon) oh want a tattoo but have been advised to wait untill oz as he may have to take a hep b test i think if he has one now!!we both want our daughter to be herself and i was lucky as my parents let me when i was growing up so we are doing the same for frankie . sorry to ramble on helen but i have been reading your posts and wanted to say "you and your oh shouldn't have to change for anybody (what gives them the right to try and make you change!!) old aged hippy (45) gail x and good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest earlswood Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I apologse! I was looking at the photo and the main person is a man! We employed about 50 people (in the UK) one stage in a busy retail shop (closed shop due to government taxes on small businesses). I would not employ anyone who just didn't look presentable especially working with the public. I have come across all sorts of peopel (I used to work for the police force as a medical forensic examiner) so you can imagine all types of people that are held in custody. I have met some of the nicest people ever but first impressions do count. If you have someone that looks scary and not presentable your chances of a job are limited. Call me old fashioned! good luck in job hunting. I would employ gothicqueen before anyone in a suit or "looking normal" if she was the best candidate for the job......I have found that without question that the most intelligent and outgoing people are say drama students who all have their own person and do not dress to please the norm and soceity....they dress maybe weird to the older generation but in general are the most intelligent outgoing and forward thinking people I have met at college and in general life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gothicqueen Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I suppose a lot of people are worried about the 'PC brigade' to be honest about it! As I have said I too have come across ALL walks of life but it still does not change my opinion. Appearance does count. Not interested in this thread anymore. Good Luck. Oh dear........ someone has taken their bat and ball home :chatterbox: I dont think the 'PC' brigaide has anything to do with it, I think its more down to peoples perception around other beliefs and cultures which canin turn can promote negativity to indiviuals from diverse walks of life, you only have to look at what happened to Sophie Lancaster to realise what impact views like that can have. But I think Vul has shown what kind of person he/she is with their blatent Im not talking about it now attitude, they come across to me as the type of person who HAS to be right at all times and if not stomp off and wont continue with a debate, unless everyone agrees with their views. I am genuinly interested in why people feel that appearances are more important than ability or personality, which is why I ask so many questions about it, and I did want Vuls opinion, but they obv dont know themselves so I may never find out but thanks for all the messgaes of support I really appreciate it, and Earlswood, I am tempted now to come to Perth, the night life sounds great and you cuold be my boss! Im sure we would make a great team........:Randy-git: what do you do again! LOL Funny Vul hasnt disclosed what they do for a living, I would be so tempted to apply for a job there..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gothicqueen Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 well gothic queen,i believe everybody has the right to express themselves and wear and look what they like . it is YOU and your style. i and my daughher aged 10 love your hair ( she has a purple clip om piece of hair and a pink one and even at her age she gets funny looks (has to come out for school though!!) but she doesn't care. she will be want she wants to be ,it is her life and we will let her choose her own path.i was born abit too late for the hippy era but still dress with the indian prints etc and have dyed my hair blue, green anf bright red (going back to red and gold highlites soon) oh want a tattoo but have been advised to wait untill oz as he may have to take a hep b test i think if he has one now!!we both want our daughter to be herself and i was lucky as my parents let me when i was growing up so we are doing the same for frankie . sorry to ramble on helen but i have been reading your posts and wanted to say "you and your oh shouldn't have to change for anybody (what gives them the right to try and make you change!!) old aged hippy (45) gail x and good luck thanks Gail, tell your daughter to carry it on lol, she will develop her own style and stuff but tell her purple hair rocks I was too young for the hippy era, but love the whole floaty clothes and flower power stuff, we go on a lot of pagan camps and there are loads of old hippies on them, they are really interesting people to talk to, I love all the tree hugging peace stuff, only thing that Im not so sure about on the camps is the 'clothing optional' side to it, my clothes stay firmly attached thankyou very much, but maybe if I was a little younger and a little thinner........:nah: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roma 1 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 hi, go on helen , try and find out and apply!! we cannot all be the same or life would be so boring!!!! i have met very different types of people in my time and as they say " variety is the spice of life" love gail xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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