Indo/Aussie relations gone

[Paul1Perth]

That's just it though - ALL COUNTRIES SPY ON EACH OTHER but at what level and where do they draw the line?

 

There is no line. Indonesia can say what they like but they are up to exactly the same as everyone else. If they have the technology to tap into Abbots private conversations they would. They might lie about it and tell everyone they aren't doing it but that's why we have the official secrets act and some people have security clearances.

 

It's only because that idiot Edward Snowden leaked thousands of things he shouldn't have and the press are culpable in drip feeding the info. Do they care that they might cause a war, lose Aussies loads of jobs, investment, security, international safety, ruin industries. They don't give a rats as long as they sell a few papers. Mr Snowden and that other idiot Julian Assange have a lot to answer for.

 

Just in case people think the Indonesians don't care and it's just politics (like I think most Aussies see it) I have friends who returned from a holiday in Lombock last week. They had a Muslim taxi driver heading back to the airport and he brought up the problem and thought it was a big deal. He was surprised when my friends (3 couples) all said they hadn't heard about it, it was just politics and they weren't very interested anyway.

 

They tend to get a bit more worked up about these issues than your average Aussie.

[Paul1Perth]

It isn't about the spying, it's the lack of diplomatic skill from Monk & Co tha didn't account for 'face'. Very silly but very expected

 

For once mate you post a bit of sense. He had a getout clause when he could have said "it was the last lot, we're sorry and I guarantee it won't happen under this government".

 

Instead he had to put the hard man act on and say we wouldn't apologise, then had to write a grovelling letter. God knows who his advisers are but they should be sacked and a new set brought in.

[Paul1Perth]

The ironic thing, which Fairfax, the ABC, and the ALP, all conveniently forget, is that, Tony Abbott did not cause this problem. He merely had the bad luck to inherit it from the previous (ALP) Government. Is Rudd going to apologise? How about Gillard?

 

Why should Australia apologise to Indonesia anyway? Did they apologise to Australia for killing those five Aussie journalists in 1975 in East Timor?

 

Or for the bombings in Bali, or the Embassy bombing in Jakarta. We didn't get many flag burning rioting Aussies outside the Indonesian Embassy during those times. I think we just wanted relationships to get better quickly, so we could resume our cheap holidays to Bali. Not personally I might add, never been as my missus got put off when the bombings happened. She refuses to go.

[Paul1Perth]

But the reason Australia needs them is that they're the 2nd fastest growing economy in the G20 and Australia will want to use Indonesia more than Indonesia will need to use Australia one day....just the same as the UK and India and we only stopped giving them aid handouts last year.

The reason we kept giving them handouts was not because they needed it, but because we wanted to maintain influence with them by buying a stake in them. They're a nuclear nation with a space exploration programme and some of the richest people on the planet, why did they need "aid" ?

 

Indonesia has a labour force of 6 times the size of entire Australian population, they're a lot cheaper to produce goods and they're on the doorstep. That's why Australia wants to give them money, to keep them onside. Nothing to do with "handouts" under the pretence of begging, they're diplomatic sweeteners with a political purpose for Australia.

If Indonesia decided to tell Australia to shove it's aid up it's arse, it's only got to look North for alternative business from far bigger countries with cheaper economic deals.

 

Because they also have some of the poorest people on the planet and they don't have a safety net like Western countries. Bit like China.

[Guest Ptp113]

For once mate you post a bit of sense. He had a getout clause when he could have said "it was the last lot, we're sorry and I guarantee it won't happen under this government".

 

Instead he had to put the hard man act on and say we wouldn't apologise, then had to write a grovelling letter. God knows who his advisers are but they should be sacked and a new set brought in.

I only ever post 'sense'. Most here don't want it though as they are 'living the dream'.

[Paul1Perth]

Handouts or Aid?

 

Nah it's protection money and that's why we haven't had any bombs in Australia like Spain or the UK... $700b in fact

 

Spain and the UK had home grown terrorists.

[Paul1Perth]

Well, India has actually done a good job and now has the third largest GDP (PPP) in the world.

 

 

India's resources were indeed taken by the colonials as the railways were built to ship them to Europe. There were no cotton fields in Europe. India's riches attracted the others from the time of Greeks,Arabs,Columbus, British,French and Portuguese. From a country having nearly 27% of share in world's economy, it was reduced to 3% during its independence.

 

 

 

 

USA is now trying to get India into its orbit and the highly successful Indian migrant community in USA gives the Americans an advantage no other country can have.

 

Even when Indians did nuclear tests during 1998, the world had to accept it on India's terms as isolating India was impossible.

 

 

India has multiple suitors now with the Americans, Russians, French, Japanese, South Koreans, British and the Australian leaders making a beeline to visit and firm up alliances during the past year alone.

 

 

And India reciprocated only to the Americans and Japanese with a visit of its Prime minister.

 

 

Any growing country will have corruption until the institutions mature and with a fiercely independent press, India will surely improve.

 

Are there more Indian migrants in US than the UK? Boy they must be overrun.

[Paul1Perth]

It is the hypocrisy of the ALP, who, in Government, enacted the policy that has so enraged the Indonesians, then 'play politics' and pretend it is all Tony Abbott's fault.

 

And why did the ABC and The Guardian (Australian edition) decide to reveal it, supposedly in 'the public interest' knowing full well what the ramifications would be?

 

I don't think they realise what the ramifications will be. That's a lot of the trouble, they put a story out there and don't seem to worry about ramifications.

[Paul1Perth]

The press has a perfect right to publish material that comes to hand unless life is endangered doing so. What we need is more investigative journalism not less. We live in a free society and to embarrass government is and neither should be a consideration on what to print.

 

A free press should keep a government accountable. Spying on its own citizens for example all things worthy of revelation.

 

If the UK had spied an it's citizens a bit better and done something about it, a certain soldier might still be alive today instead of getting hacked to death in the street.

 

What's to say that the release of this story will not lead to another bombing in Bali or 2? They need to think a bit more before they print.

[ArthurPendragon]

Are there more Indian migrants in US than the UK? Boy they must be overrun.

 

To get a clearer picture, we need to look at Post British Empire migration from India to UK.

USA has 3,183,063 people counting themselves of Indian (from India) ethnicity, which is definitely substantial.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/04/04/asian-groups-in-the-u-s/

 

The current Prime Minister of India is an alumni of Oxford and Cambridge university. The past Prime Ministers too were mostly educated in the UK. But the future leaders (Rahul Gandhi is a Harvard alumni) are mostly US educated.

[ArthurPendragon]

27 per cent reduced to 3 per cent as a result of British conquest? Makes you wonder how Britain ever managed to recover from each successive invasion and conquest - Romans, Saxons, Jutes, Angles, Danes, Normans, plus all the resources expended fighting off the Spanish, French, & Germans.

 

 

India too was able to recover from a longer history on invasion starting from Greeks, Mongols, Parthians,Scythians, Ummayads, Afghans and the Turks.

 

But the invasions from 18th century were a bit different.

 

The industrial revolution made resource transfer easier and faster, which wasn't possible during the earlier periods.

 

 

But you are right, India has made huge strides and unlike so many other developing countries, it is a democracy. But how it justifies spending so much money on developing both nuclear and conventional arms, when so much of the country lives in poverty, together with the inequalities of their version of apartheid - the caste system - and other nasty things like child labour and slavery, well, it is better than Pakistan I guess.

 

India is in a difficult neighbourhood and even with that, its defence expenditure is still 2.5 percent of its GDP, which is the same as that of Britain.

 

Indians would also be right in questioning the need for Britain to spend 2.5 percent on its defence when its in one of the most peaceful areas of the world. No one expects UK to have any conflict with France/Netherlands/Iceland/Belgium or Denmark.

 

The caste system is illegal now and Indians were never slave traders. And India has one of the most extensive affirmative actions for the backward classes in the world

You can refer to this article for more information.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/apr/11/india.equality

[docboat]

Hang about. Is this the same Indonesia that killed the Balibo reporters, covered it up and still continue to lie about murdering our people? The same nation that permits people smugglers to live like kings in jail, let people smugglers in to do business with them, and have police and army accompany the refugees to the boats to help the smugglers, and then say they are doing all they can to help cut the smuggling? The same nation that permits methanol to be sold as alcohol, kill our tourists and not prosecute the poisoners? The same nation that permits jihadis to meet, plan and plot, kow tow to the spiritual leader of islamist murderers and lets him out of prison to continue fomenting mass murder?

 

And we need to apologise to them for keeping an eye on them?

[MARYROSE02]

Hang about. Is this the same Indonesia that killed the Balibo reporters, covered it up and still continue to lie about murdering our people? The same nation that permits people smugglers to live like kings in jail, let people smugglers in to do business with them, and have police and army accompany the refugees to the boats to help the smugglers, and then say they are doing all they can to help cut the smuggling? The same nation that permits methanol to be sold as alcohol, kill our tourists and not prosecute the poisoners? The same nation that permits jihadis to meet, plan and plot, kow tow to the spiritual leader of islamist murderers and lets him out of prison to continue fomenting mass murder?

 

 

And we need to apologise to them for keeping an eye on them?

 

All true, but the problem is, as John Pilger et al will tell you, ONLY the West is guilty. ONLY the West is to blame. The West can do no right and the rest can do no wrong!

[MARYROSE02]

India too was able to recover from a longer history on invasion starting from Greeks, Mongols, Parthians,Scythians, Ummayads, Afghans and the Turks.

 

But the invasions from 18th century were a bit different.

 

The industrial revolution made resource transfer easier and faster, which wasn't possible during the earlier periods.

 

 

 

 

India is in a difficult neighbourhood and even with that, its defence expenditure is still 2.5 percent of its GDP, which is the same as that of Britain.

 

Indians would also be right in questioning the need for Britain to spend 2.5 percent on its defence when its in one of the most peaceful areas of the world. No one expects UK to have any conflict with France/Netherlands/Iceland/Belgium or Denmark.

 

The caste system is illegal now and Indians were never slave traders. And India has one of the most extensive affirmative actions for the backward classes in the world

You can refer to this article for more information.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/apr/11/india.equality

 

I read that article and I see that in 2006, high caste students rioted and clashed with the police over the reforms. It is one thing to pass a law, quite another to actually enforce it.

 

I was under the impression, wrong now, that the Romans, for instance, enriched themselves by exploiting their conquered lands, and they had those wonderful roads too do it - 'all leading to Rome' - better roads than Britain in the 18th century, probably. And of course they took slaves wherever they went.

 

The Normans were different though. They never went home. I have long wondered how the Normans mysteriously 'morphed' into 'The English' just in time for Braveheart.

 

One of the major differences in outlook between Britain and other countries, is that we are proud of our history, and even prouder of the races that conquered us.

[ArthurPendragon]

I read that article and I see that in 2006, high caste students rioted and clashed with the police over the reforms. It is one thing to pass a law, quite another to actually enforce it.

 

As the world's largest democracy, Indians have right to protest. Enforcement happens automatically as the people who benefit would not let the opportunity go.

And coming to enforcement or lack of it, the same question can be asked about other developed countries too as the disadvantaged still are not at the same level as the rest.

 

 

I was under the impression, wrong now, that the Romans, for instance, enriched themselves by exploiting their conquered lands, and they had those wonderful roads too do it - 'all leading to Rome' - better roads than Britain in the 18th century, probably. And of course they took slaves wherever they went.

 

The Normans were different though. They never went home. I have long wondered how the Normans mysteriously 'morphed' into 'The English' just in time for Braveheart.

 

One of the major differences in outlook between Britain and other countries, is that we are proud of our history, and even prouder of the races that conquered us.

 

With India, it was different. The conquerors and migrants became part of the fabric of the nation. Tata, the current owners of Jaguar and Land Rover are Parsis (Zoroastrians) who fled persecution from Iran. Dalai Lama runs his Tibetan government in exile from India.

[Paul1Perth]

As the world's largest democracy, Indians have right to protest. Enforcement happens automatically as the people who benefit would not let the opportunity go.

And coming to enforcement or lack of it, the same question can be asked about other developed countries too as the disadvantaged still are not at the same level as the rest.

 

 

 

 

With India, it was different. The conquerors and migrants became part of the fabric of the nation. Tata, the current owners of Jaguar and Land Rover are Parsis (Zoroastrians) who fled persecution from Iran. Dalai Lama runs his Tibetan government in exile from India.

 

A friend of mine went to India last year. I lent him the book Inhaling the Mahatma and he said it was great as he visited lots of places that were mentioned in the book, including having a dip in the Gangees at about the same place as the guy who wrote the book.

 

He was supposed to be going with his wife but she refused to go at the last minute as the rape case with the tourist had just happened and the other one where the girl was killed on the bus, was just going to court. He went with his son. During the trip he thought he would bring up the rape cases with a couple of people to see what they thought. The official word coming from the government and the press was that the country was outraged and the perpetrators would be brought to justice.

 

When he mentioned it to a taxi driver and a guy in a restaurant he was surprised to hear that they thought the women, in both cases was to blame and got quite worked up when he showed he was disgusted by it. Thought it best not to mention it again as it was just as upsetting to him to get the feedback he got.

[Paul1Perth]

Hang about. Is this the same Indonesia that killed the Balibo reporters, covered it up and still continue to lie about murdering our people? The same nation that permits people smugglers to live like kings in jail, let people smugglers in to do business with them, and have police and army accompany the refugees to the boats to help the smugglers, and then say they are doing all they can to help cut the smuggling? The same nation that permits methanol to be sold as alcohol, kill our tourists and not prosecute the poisoners? The same nation that permits jihadis to meet, plan and plot, kow tow to the spiritual leader of islamist murderers and lets him out of prison to continue fomenting mass murder?

 

And we need to apologise to them for keeping an eye on them?

 

We (or the government) just have to play the game docboat.

[ArthurPendragon]

A friend of mine went to India last year. I lent him the book Inhaling the Mahatma and he said it was great as he visited lots of places that were mentioned in the book, including having a dip in the Gangees at about the same place as the guy who wrote the book.

 

He was supposed to be going with his wife but she refused to go at the last minute as the rape case with the tourist had just happened and the other one where the girl was killed on the bus, was just going to court. He went with his son. During the trip he thought he would bring up the rape cases with a couple of people to see what they thought. The official word coming from the government and the press was that the country was outraged and the perpetrators would be brought to justice.

 

When he mentioned it to a taxi driver and a guy in a restaurant he was surprised to hear that they thought the women, in both cases was to blame and got quite worked up when he showed he was disgusted by it. Thought it best not to mention it again as it was just as upsetting to him to get the feedback he got.

 

The perpetrators were in fact brought to justice. The coverage about this in the World press was due to ordinary Indians (Both men and women) protesting on a massive scale against this atrocity.

 

And Indians should be proud of the fact that their Government listened to them and increased the penalties for violence against women, which is not unique to India (Read this->http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse-admit-there-one#), though the penalties are now one of the toughest.

 

I've spoken to many of Indians regarding this and all of them were very vocal about the perpetrators getting the capital punishment for this.

 

Author and activist Eve Ensler, who organised One Billion Rising, a global campaign to end violence against women and girls, said that the gang rape and murder was a turning point in India and around the world. Ensler said that she had travelled to India at the time of the rape and murder and that after

 

 

"having worked every day of my life for the last 15 years on sexual violence, I have never seen anything like that, where sexual violence broke through the consciousness and was on the front page, nine articles in every paper every day, in the center of every discourse, in the center of the college students' discussions, in the center of any restaurant you went in. And I think what's happened in India, India is really leading the way for the world. It's really broken through. They are actually fast-tracking laws. They are looking at sexual education. They are looking at the bases of patriarchy and masculinity and how all that leads to sexual violence."

 

 

And about the 2 guys who tried to justify it, its victim blaming and there would be some in every country who would do that.

We can't extrapolate the actions/words of two to a nation, and especially one that's as diverse as Europe.. If we do that, no country would be in the clear.

[Parley]

And what does this have to do with Australia/Indonesia relations ?

[Guest Ptp113]

And what does this have to do with Australia/Indonesia relations ?

 

Think outside the box..................

[Paul1Perth]

The perpetrators were in fact brought to justice. The coverage about this in the World press was due to ordinary Indians (Both men and women) protesting on a massive scale against this atrocity.

 

And Indians should be proud of the fact that their Government listened to them and increased the penalties for violence against women, which is not unique to India (Read this->http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse-admit-there-one#), though the penalties are now one of the toughest.

 

I've spoken to many of Indians regarding this and all of them were very vocal about the perpetrators getting the capital punishment for this.

 

Author and activist Eve Ensler, who organised One Billion Rising, a global campaign to end violence against women and girls, said that the gang rape and murder was a turning point in India and around the world. Ensler said that she had travelled to India at the time of the rape and murder and that after

 

 

"having worked every day of my life for the last 15 years on sexual violence, I have never seen anything like that, where sexual violence broke through the consciousness and was on the front page, nine articles in every paper every day, in the center of every discourse, in the center of the college students' discussions, in the center of any restaurant you went in. And I think what's happened in India, India is really leading the way for the world. It's really broken through. They are actually fast-tracking laws. They are looking at sexual education. They are looking at the bases of patriarchy and masculinity and how all that leads to sexual violence."

 

 

And about the 2 guys who tried to justify it, its victim blaming and there would be some in every country who would do that.

We can't extrapolate the actions/words of two to a nation, and especially one that's as diverse as Europe.. If we do that, no country would be in the clear.

 

He asked 2 and got the same reply from 2. He felt that he dearn't ask after that as the response was pretty hostile. If we are going to try and extrapolate that's 100%.

 

Sure the politicians, press and media put out the view that all of India was disgusted. They should have been, especially about the poor girl that got killed in the van. The rape case with the tourist happened a few weeks after though, so some were still thinking the tourist lady was fair game.

 

it was the final straw for my friends wife who is tall and blond and said she just wouldn't have felt safe.

 

After my friend got back he was glad she hadn't bothered as some of the places he went to he admitted that she probably wouldn't have been safe. Even with him around.