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winter1

Is Australian Super taxed in the UK

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    No, if you come back and live for a year before you claim it, you'll still have to stay for one more year or they'll take it away from you. The rule is you have to be in the country the day you claim, and you have to be resident for two full years around that time, either before or after or during.

     

    Wrong according to CES who did extensive research for us. If you are here the full year before, it becomes portable as soon as you fet it. If you are not here the full year before then you have to stay a further 2 years after getting it for it to be portable

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    Moneycorp

    Moneycorp

    CLARIFICATIONS

     

    I will have lived 'continuously' in Australia for 34 years when I get the Oz pension so I will get 34/35 worth of age pension.

    I have lived back in the UK for one 9 month peiod working and another 11 months but was told to return just under a year as up to one year can be classed as a 'holiday'. Therefore my pension will be portable on receipt. Had we stayed one more day over the year in the UK, even if back before claiming pension it would NOT have been portable for 2 years.

     

    I am in receipt of a UK aged pension via my husband. I did not have enough years of work there and they would not count my years as a foster parent being paid an allowance for the children in my care as 'working'.

     

    We have twice topped up my husband's UK pension which gets reflected in an increase for me too. The first time we received a call from the overseas pension dept suggesting he did. We got more in back pay than we has sent them! So we phoned and asked if we could do the same again, which we did. Can't do any more though or we would! I think 7 years worth may be the limit now.

     

    Any Australian pensionwill naturally drop when allowances are removed if abroad. For us it took 10 months to get our UK pensions back out of Overseas section. Once it was in a local office our UK pensions went up a lot but be prepared for that gap between Oz one dropping and UK one going up.

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    I wouldn't even consider that option for myself! The interest rates are lousy in the UK versus the interest we get on my SunSuper account! We have earned a heap of money in Oz since December, literally thousands and I rolled mine into pension before Jan 1st so deeming rules do not apply.

     

    Hi fizzybangs,

    It is not for everyone, but is an option to protect a capital amount. I agree the returns in an Australian super fund are superior strictly on a dollar basis but you also have to take into account exchange rates. For example my Aus super has risen in dollar terms but has gone down by around 17% in pound terms since mid 2012 despite adding 20% in dollars in the same time. It is now worth a lot less now than in mid 2012 in pounds. However if the AUD recovers it will be worth more. Also the Deeming rules would make no difference if you reached aged pension after this date regardless of when you started drawing a super stream.


    :confused:

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    Also the Deeming rules would make no difference if you reached aged pension after this date regardless of when you started drawing a super stream.

     

    Just to clarify I was advised by my super fund that starting an income stream before the 1st Jan this year would not save me from new rules to include it in the aged pension Deeming calculations as you already have to have been old enough to receive the aged pension before the 1st of January.

     

    Unless you know different, if so I would be making representation to my fund for incorrect advice.


    :confused:

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    CLARIFICATIONS

     

    .......I am in receipt of a UK aged pension via my husband. I did not have enough years of work there and they would not count my years as a foster parent being paid an allowance for the children in my care as 'working'..........

     

    @fizzybangs - depending on when when you reached (UK) state pension age, if you were a foster carer in the UK for a complete tax year before 2010 you may be eligible for National Insurance 'credits' towards a state pension. This link might help? www.gov.uk/home-responsibilities-protection-hrp/overview Tx

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    Wrong according to CES who did extensive research for us. If you are here the full year before, it becomes portable as soon as you fet it. If you are not here the full year before then you have to stay a further 2 years after getting it for it to be portable

     

    I think that's because, even though you went overseas for a while, you were regarded as living continuously in Australia up to that point. So you weren't just in Oz for a full year before claiming, you'd been in Oz for however-many-years before that.

     

    If we went overseas now (at 61) and became deemed non-resident, so our continuous residence was broken, the two year rule would apply.


    Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Australian husband applied for UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Australia June 2016

     

     

    "The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

     

     

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    Anybody know if the distinction between deducted and undeducted funds has any relevance to how the UK taxes the withdrawals ?

     

    I have asked HMRC and am waiting for an answer but was wondering if someone had already had an answer.

     

    Bill

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    Anybody know if the distinction between deducted and undeducted funds has any relevance to how the UK taxes the withdrawals ?

     

    I have asked HMRC and am waiting for an answer but was wondering if someone had already had an answer.

     

    Bill

     

    What do you mean by withdrawals?

     

    If you take your lump sum before you leave Australia and put it in your bank account, it is simply savings in your bank and the UK government won't care where it came from. Once you are resident in the UK, you will simply declare any interest you earn on those savings, and also declare the 10% tax which your Australian bank will withhold from your interest (so you're not taxed twice).

     

    If you convert your super to a pension and then receive pension payments, you will declare those payments as ordinary income on your UK tax return.

     

    If you leave your super in Australia and withdraw lump sums from it in the UK, then the UK government may tax you on foreign currency gains you've made by holding investments in Australia. They are not interested in historical tax paid or not paid, so whether the original payments were deducted/undeducted is irrelevant.


    Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Australian husband applied for UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Australia June 2016

     

     

    "The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

     

     

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    Anybody know if the distinction between deducted and undeducted funds has any relevance to how the UK taxes the withdrawals ?

     

    I have asked HMRC and am waiting for an answer but was wondering if someone had already had an answer.

     

    Bill

     

    I agree with what Marisa has said above, that is the position as I understand it after calling HMRC several times.

    The only concession that is given is that you are taxed on 90% of a regular pension payment I mentioned the other reliefs that are implied in sa 106 but was told this did not apply as it would be an income stream( I was hoping when I posed the original question that someone else had tested this).

     

    However as I am not in the position yet I haven't had to file a tax return to test it. So the option of a purchased life annuity is a possibilty this is also mentioned in the first link as it is regarded as capital and only the interest is taxed. It may be possible to buy one in Australia with higher yields. However as I stated before the exchange rate could vary the payment far more than tax or interest. Therefore bringing it to the UK as a lump sum could actually protect the value of capital if the AUD were to drop even further.

     

     

    https://online.hmrc.gov.uk/information/help?helpcategory=selfAssessmentFiling1011&affinitygroup=&helpid=PensionsAndOtherBenefits

     

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/self-assessment-foreign-sa106


    :confused:

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    I agree with what Marisa has said above, that is the position as I understand it after calling HMRC several times.

    The only concession that is given is that you are taxed on 90% of a regular pension payment I mentioned the other reliefs that are implied in sa 106 but was told this did not apply as it would be an income stream( I was hoping when I posed the original question that someone else had tested this).

     

    However as I am not in the position yet I haven't had to file a tax return to test it. So the option of a purchased life annuity is a possibilty this is also mentioned in the first link as it is regarded as capital and only the interest is taxed. It may be possible to buy one in Australia with higher yields. However as I stated before the exchange rate could vary the payment far more than tax or interest. Therefore bringing it to the UK as a lump sum could actually protect the value of capital if the AUD were to drop even further.

     

     

    https://online.hmrc.gov.uk/information/help?helpcategory=selfAssessmentFiling1011&affinitygroup=&helpid=PensionsAndOtherBenefits

     

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/self-assessment-foreign-sa106

     

     

    Marisa and WInter1,

     

    Thanks for the comments.

     

    Everybody is different and has different circumstances.

     

    Some people might take 1 lump sum once only when they retire

     

    Our plan that works well in Australia calls for me to take annual lump sum withdrawal from a fund full of undeducted dollars instead of a regular pension.

     

    From what I have learned on this forum so far this may not be as effective in UK for various reasons

     

    The strategies outlined in this thread are interesting

     

    http://www.pomsinoz.com/forum/financial-advice-ask-vista/165251-australian-age-pension-information-thread.html

     

    Regards

     

    Bill

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    That post was written for people coming FROM the UK migrating TO Australia, so it's not useful or relevant to you.


    Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Australian husband applied for UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Australia June 2016

     

     

    "The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

     

     

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    Hi fizzybangs,

    It is not for everyone, but is an option to protect a capital amount. I agree the returns in an Australian super fund are superior strictly on a dollar basis but you also have to take into account exchange rates. For example my Aus super has risen in dollar terms but has gone down by around 17% in pound terms since mid 2012 despite adding 20% in dollars in the same time. It is now worth a lot less now than in mid 2012 in pounds. However if the AUD recovers it will be worth more. Also the Deeming rules would make no difference if you reached aged pension after this date regardless of when you started drawing a super stream.

     

    interesting and thanks for info and will look into it. We have transfered it now and will get a lump sum in March and our pension hasn't changed at all - yet!

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    @fizzybangs - depending on when when you reached (UK) state pension age, if you were a foster carer in the UK for a complete tax year before 2010 you may be eligible for National Insurance 'credits' towards a state pension. This link might help? www.gov.uk/home-responsibilities-protection-hrp/overview Tx

     

    I sure was! For years! Thanks for info, will look into it for sure.

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    I think that's because, even though you went overseas for a while, you were regarded as living continuously in Australia up to that point. So you weren't just in Oz for a full year before claiming, you'd been in Oz for however-many-years before that.

     

    If we went overseas now (at 61) and became deemed non-resident, so our continuous residence was broken, the two year rule would apply.

     

    Yes, which is why the CES lady told us to come back just under the year.

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    I sure was! For years! Thanks for info, will look into it for sure.

    Don't qualify as this has only been brought in in the last few years and not retrospective to the 1980's

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    interesting and thanks for info and will look into it. We have transfered it now and will get a lump sum in March and our pension hasn't changed at all - yet!

    I do qualify as I was on Income Support (Disability Pension) on 1st January 2015

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    Don't qualify as this has only been brought in in the last few years and not retrospective to the 1980's

    Home responsibilities protection (HRP) existed in the 1980's though. The link provides broad guidance to help with the most common queries, so it would be worth checking your own eligibility to HRP for a period not covered by the web pages. Good luck, it's probably worth an email just to be sure. Tx

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    Home responsibilities protection (HRP) existed in the 1980's though. The link provides broad guidance to help with the most common queries, so it would be worth checking your own eligibility to HRP for a period not covered by the web pages. Good luck, it's probably worth an email just to be sure. Tx

     

    Well they told me on the phone that I'd be on wife pension but not really better off because if something happens to my OH and he is quite a bit older than me, I will only get 60th on my widow's pension of what I get now. They told me outright that it will not be counted as I was married to previous OH then and he gets his own UK pension in Oz. So my years married to him don't count!

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    .............. and here is the gloriously detailed response to my various questions that I sent to HMRC

     

    Dear Sir,

     

    Thank you for contacting the HMRC Residence Team.

     

    You have not supplied HMRC with sufficient information to verify your identity, so we are only able to give you general advice and nothing specific to your personal circumstances.

     

    The information that you require is covered under Form SA109. A hyper-link to this form is attached for your information and use:

     

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/self-assessment-residence-remittance-basis-etc-sa109

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    Bill, I think you may have sent your enquiry to the wrong place. The Residence Team won't talk to you until you are resident.

     

    For the Pension Department, which will talk to you, all I gave them was my maiden name and NI number.

    Edited by Marisawright

    Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Australian husband applied for UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Australia June 2016

     

     

    "The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

     

     

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    Aaaargh frustrating.

     

    Ok Have sent query to HMRC pesnions section.

     

    Thanks Marisa

     

    Bill

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    I too have been trying to find out the answer to whether I will have to pay tax on my superannuation or subsequent pension from super when I move back to England. I think that the Australian-UK double tax agreement (See Articles 4 and 17) and info on the UK tax office site might help. The Double Tax Agreement seems to say that tax on pensions and annuities is only payable in the country you are deemed to be resident in. The UK tax office website says that tax is payable on foreign income in the same way as UK income, but that for Foreign Pensions tax only has to be paid on 90% of foreign pension income. However it is not clear to me if this still allows for the UK personal allowance, that is, if 90% of one’s Australian pension is at or under the allowance would the money still effectively be tax free. The allowance (the amount of income you can earn tax free) is £11,000 p.a. for UK tax year 2015/16.

     

    I would advise getting advice from a tax specialist to account for your own individual circumstances, especially around how lump sums will be treated, and if you have shares and property. Also depending on your circumstances being deemed UK resident may not be straightforward for everyone., and an unexpected 32c in the S1 tax bill will be quite a stinger. However, having knowledge of this info may help with questions that you want to pose.

     

    The links below may be helpful.

     

    https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income/foreign-income-thats-taxed-differently'>https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income/foreign-income-thats-taxed-differently

     

    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/2003/22.html

    https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income

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    Hello,

    Our shift delayed by ill elderly relatives, but still keen to better understand issues discussed in this thread.

    I had the impression that significant changes took place in UK in 2016 regarding retirement funding.

    Anybody know if those changes impacted upon the issues discussed in this thread ? Will do some googlng.

    My current understanding is that its probably best to cash out all super prior to end of May in Australia and land in UK with a bank account (setting up that bank account is a different story) full of cash in Mid April thereby avoiding any possibility of HMRC making any claim on the money we have already paid tax on in Australia. It would then be necessary to sign up for the appropriate retirement funding products in UK.

    Is there a list of forum sponsors somewhere where I can access contact details for accountants  / tax advisors / financial planners that are qualified to give co-ordinated advice relevant to both countries ? In my various discussions with these sorts of professionals its been very difficult to find a one stop shop, there is always the need for bringing in a second or third company because no single company can give me appropriate advice regarding best way to exit Australia and enter UK with retirement funds.

    I now see that when buying a house in UK some real estate agents are asking you to prove that you are not a money launderer, and we have been warned by our bank (Westpac) that an international transfer  ie proceeds of sale of house + super cashouts,  can be delayed whilst people check that the money is "clean"   - Anybody ever had those issues ?

    Bill

     

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    Hi Bill.

    Please feel able to send a PM to me with your contact details, or telephone me on 03 9935 2929.

    I'm going to be out for the next couple of hours, so I'll be back at my desk after midday Melbourne time.

    Best regards.


    Managing Director, Go Matilda Visas and Tax, www.gomatilda.com

    Registered Migration Agent Number 0102534, Chartered Accountant (England & Wales, and Australia), and Registered Tax Agent (Australia)

    T - 023 81 66 11 55 (UK) or 03 9935 2929 (Australia)

    E - alan.collett@gomatilda.com

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