BillW

Marisa, HMRC provide a worked example here https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75550 Looks interesting but needs a trained brain to get it right. Bill

I don't think what is proposed in that newspaper story is illegal, it does include full disclosure to HMRC, but yes it is complicated to a layman like me and appropriate further advice from a suitably qualified person will be sought. I believe I have the relevant data. One of the things I learned during my working life was that I can give the same data to different engineers and get quite different answers to a problem and am guessing the same could be true for asking an appropriate expert to interpret and apply the appropriate HMRC calculations if its done wrong and HMRC do not agree then that could be a problem. Does anybody know if its possible to get a calculation done and ask HMRC if its been done correctly before formally submitting it ? For example work "with" HMRC rather than against them - I will always remember one particular river diversion project where the statutory authorities were included in the calculations and asked their opinions on the plans before any dirt was excavated - that's an intelligent way to work with statutory authorities. Bill

Ken Alan and Marisa, Thanks for the various replies ........ Have a read of this, written in 2023 in the Telegraph - seems to imply that lump sum withdrawals are possible if you have access to the data to do the calculations required https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/tax-hacks/draw-down-australian-pension-savings-taxed-twice-uk/ admittedly I don't know much about that calculation but happy to investigate and learn about it. Just gotta wade through the relevant HMRC page a dozen times.

Hello, 5 years since the last message posted. Any huge changes to policies or workarounds or ideas in that time ? I do get the impression that there are ways of minimising the tax you pay on Australian super in the UK but it requires some planning and consulting with a specialist accountant or tax agent well before the move to the UK and this can be very expensive. HMRC have a forum where Aussies keep asking variations on this question for the last 4 years and HMRC responses are basically "You are taxed on your worldwide income" and there are various references to HMRC web pages that can be quite difficult for a layperson to understand. Worth a look if you have not seen it before. Took me a while to understand the differences between UK and Australian retirement systems UK : No tax on the deposits, no tax on earnings, taxed on the way out Australia : Taxed on the deposits, taxed on the earnings, no tax on the way out I read somewhere that the double tax agreement gives the UK the right to tax you on your Australian pension if your are resident in the UK I have seen hints in various places that one lump sum withdrawal per year might be a partial workaround and could be useful if you have nor set up the allocated pension yet - ie if you are still in accumulation. So any new ideas from anybody ? Any consultants or accountants you can recommend ? Bill

Hello, Anybody had any interesting experiences or revelations since the last post was made ? This is interesting https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/pension-tax-for-overseas-pensions/pension-tax-for-overseas-pensions#chapter-2---taxation-of-payments-from-foreign-pension-schemes-or-annuities Relevant section is approx half way down the page titled "Changes to taxation of pension payments" Am currently wading through it attempting to reduce it into everyday vernacular English. Bill

Thanks Alan, PM sent.

Hello, Our shift delayed by ill elderly relatives, but still keen to better understand issues discussed in this thread. I had the impression that significant changes took place in UK in 2016 regarding retirement funding. Anybody know if those changes impacted upon the issues discussed in this thread ? Will do some googlng. My current understanding is that its probably best to cash out all super prior to end of May in Australia and land in UK with a bank account (setting up that bank account is a different story) full of cash in Mid April thereby avoiding any possibility of HMRC making any claim on the money we have already paid tax on in Australia. It would then be necessary to sign up for the appropriate retirement funding products in UK. Is there a list of forum sponsors somewhere where I can access contact details for accountants / tax advisors / financial planners that are qualified to give co-ordinated advice relevant to both countries ? In my various discussions with these sorts of professionals its been very difficult to find a one stop shop, there is always the need for bringing in a second or third company because no single company can give me appropriate advice regarding best way to exit Australia and enter UK with retirement funds. I now see that when buying a house in UK some real estate agents are asking you to prove that you are not a money launderer, and we have been warned by our bank (Westpac) that an international transfer ie proceeds of sale of house + super cashouts, can be delayed whilst people check that the money is "clean" - Anybody ever had those issues ? Bill

Thanks for the post. Has anybody recently managed to open an account under this new law ? Will be in UK next May and will give it a try. Bill

Hello, Am keen to learn about any financial planning / tax traps that seem to be hinted at in the above postings. Any known good threads I should read ? Am currently searching through all posts that mention superannuation - Anybody got any recomendations regarding companies they found helpful, giving good advice, when they made the shift ? Bill

Aaaargh frustrating. Ok Have sent query to HMRC pesnions section. Thanks Marisa Bill

.............. and here is the gloriously detailed response to my various questions that I sent to HMRC Dear Sir, Thank you for contacting the HMRC Residence Team. You have not supplied HMRC with sufficient information to verify your identity, so we are only able to give you general advice and nothing specific to your personal circumstances. The information that you require is covered under Form SA109. A hyper-link to this form is attached for your information and use: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/self-assessment-residence-remittance-basis-etc-sa109

I can second that. We easily opened an account with Lloyds in Jersey at a time when high street banks refused to let us open a new joint account or have me a co-signatory on my wifes existing account because we were not resident in UK. My wife had an account with bank of scotland who recommended Loyds after informing us that they could accept me as a co-signature on the original account. Bill Fill out a few forms and post them, thats it, done. Bill

Marisa and WInter1, Thanks for the comments. Everybody is different and has different circumstances. Some people might take 1 lump sum once only when they retire Our plan that works well in Australia calls for me to take annual lump sum withdrawal from a fund full of undeducted dollars instead of a regular pension. From what I have learned on this forum so far this may not be as effective in UK for various reasons The strategies outlined in this thread are interesting http://www.pomsinoz.com/forum/financial-advice-ask-vista/165251-australian-age-pension-information-thread.html Regards Bill

Anybody know if the distinction between deducted and undeducted funds has any relevance to how the UK taxes the withdrawals ? I have asked HMRC and am waiting for an answer but was wondering if someone had already had an answer. Bill

Marisa, Thanks - thats an old post from when I first found this forum. This question is discussed and covered very well on the other thread Bill

Wouldnt that be awfully difficult to co-ordinate ? One of you would have to "go" first and trust the other one to come good in turn. Bill

Hey Grey Sky, Any complications caused by your wife living in UK whilst having money in a super fund in Australia - did the UK govt want a bite out of the earnings as tax ? Bill

Thanks Marisa, I reckon this ought to be where my tax file number comes in handy. Am hoping that I can simply ask ATO "Can you please supply a listing of all tax returns I have filed since I started work ?" will let you know how I go. Interesting about the residency requirements for applying in the future, my wife and my parents both succesfully applied for and received UK pensions whilst living in Australia. Regards Bill

Hello Goingbacksoon, We are goingbacksoonasourhouseissold. Have been investigating the same issues as you have asked about and was wondering if you have had any solid answers yet that you are confident with ? Regards Bill

Thats interesting - my wife receives UK pension and must declare that in Aussie tax return. I thought that under the Double Tax Agreement you'd have to pay tax in the country you are resident in. Am interested because am going the other way and trying to understand tax on Aussie pensions - see other threat that has had lots recent activity from me - may be of interest to you. Bill

Hello, I've started making detailed inquiries to HMRC and DWP. I found a couple of other sites and did some communication via online chat but they basically said "no we cannot help you" These less useful sites were "The Pensions Advisory Service" and "Money Advice Service" . Money advice sent me to TPAS who then sent me to HMRC To be blunt, the representatives of these two services didn't seem to know what services they did offer - the online officers were very reticent regarding why they existed and what topics they could give advice on. It was very frustrating. Will post back what DWP and HMRC come back with.

Try filling out the calculator as if you were a male between 55 and 60 years old never worked in uk but have worked overseas. do it several time changing the birth year every time. you get different answers varying between zero and 11.74 per week and sometimes it gives you a couple of years of credits. Also works for a female. If you look in the depths of the eligibilty link it appears that as a male approaches 65 years old he can automatically aquire NH credits simply by being resident and unemployed/low wage - I do not know what the logic is behind this, maybe I've misinterpreted it. Also, in the notes at the bottom of the calculator page there seems to be automatic credit for between the ages of 16-19, again needs further investigation. If you look at the printout below you see that this mythical chap that I invented automatically got 1 year's credits and I am assuming that the calculated pension is based on those credits plus the years overseas qualifies him. I do know there was some weird and obscure rules about British pensions - if a female was the right age she can somehow "claim" a spouse on her pension or get a pension for him - am not sure of the details we were vaguely aware of this when we got the Sate pension for my wife but it didnt work in our circumstances so we didn’t investigate any further. That was a few years ago maybe those rules will change in April 2016 My conclusions have changed a bit and am thinking that people in our situation could work for a year or two on a low wage without hurting Centrelink pension too much. This might work for your situation as well with possibility of buying extra credits. This calculator is only good for people retiring before April 2016 and probably works best for “vanilla” scenarios ie “Female aged 64 worked 40 years in UK” I’d say that our extreme fringe type scenarios could need substantial verification and checking and they may not be relevant as the rules change in April 2016. I don’t know to what extent “sunset” and “grandfather” clauses will be implemented for current crop of baby boomers who have planned their retirement under current UK rules. There have been a few of these in Australian system recently Regards Bill State Pension calculator The State Pension will change on 6 April 2016. When you reach State Pension age you’ll claim the new State Pension. This is an estimate of your basic State Pension under the current rules. [TABLE] [TR] [TH]Basic State Pension[/TH] [TH]Your results[/TH] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Your State Pension age[/TD] [TD]66 years[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]When you’ll reach State Pension age[/TD] [TD]16 May 2023[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]How much per week you may get[/TD] [TD]£3.77[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] You may not qualify for the new State Pension. Under the new State Pension rules you need at least 10 years of National Insurance contributions. Check if the time you lived or worked overseas can help you meet the 10 years you need. The State Pension age is regularly reviewed and may change in the future. This estimate doesn’t include any Additional State Pension you may have before 6 April 2016. It may change if you make more National Insurance contributions before you reach State Pension age. How much State Pension you get depends on how many years of National Insurance contributions you have. [TABLE] [TR] [TH]National Insurance[/TH] [TH]Your results[/TH] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Years of contributions you already have[/TD] [TD]1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Years you can still make contributions[/TD] [TD]9[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Get a pension statement Find out how you can get a State Pension statement to get an estimate of your full State Pension. More about the State Pension Read about: the new State Pension voluntary contributions increasing your basic State Pension with your partner’s (or late or former partner’s) National Insurance contributions State Pension if you retire abroad Your estimate may include up to 3 years of automatic credits for the years containing your 16th, 17th and 18th birthdays. If you got your National Insurance number after April 2010 you don’t get these automatic credits. Previous answers Start again [TABLE] [TR=class: section] [TD=class: previous-question-title]What would you like to calculate?[/TD] [TD=class: previous-question-body] Amount - estimate of your basic State Pension amount[/TD] [TD=class: link-right] Change answer to "What would you like to calculate?" [/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: section] [TD=class: previous-question-title]Are you a man or a woman?[/TD] [TD=class: previous-question-body] Man[/TD] [TD=class: link-right] Change answer to "Are you a man or a woman?" [/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: section] [TD=class: previous-question-title]What is your date of birth?[/TD] [TD=class: previous-question-body] 16 May 1957[/TD] [TD=class: link-right] Change answer to "What is your date of birth?" [/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: section] [TD=class: previous-question-title]How many years have you worked and paid National Insurance contributions from the age of 19?[/TD] [TD=class: previous-question-body] 0[/TD] [TD=class: link-right] Change answer to "How many years have you worked and paid National Insurance contributions from the age of 19?" [/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: section] [TD=class: previous-question-title]How many years from the age of 19 have you claimed unemployment, sickness or disability benefits?[/TD] [TD=class: previous-question-body] 0[/TD] [TD=class: link-right] Change answer to "How many years from the age of 19 have you claimed unemployment, sickness or disability benefits?" [/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: section] [TD=class: previous-question-title]Have you ever claimed Child Benefit, cared for someone sick or disabled or worked as a registered foster carer?[/TD] [TD=class: previous-question-body] No[/TD] [TD=class: link-right] Change answer to "Have you ever claimed Child Benefit, cared for someone sick or disabled or worked as a registered foster carer?" [/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: section] [TD=class: previous-question-title]How many years between age 16 and 19 were you working and paying National Insurance Contributions, or receiving National Insurance credits?[/TD] [TD=class: previous-question-body] 0[/TD] [TD=class: link-right] Change answer to "How many years between age 16 and 19 were you working and paying National Insurance Contributions, or receiving National Insurance credits?" [/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: section] [TD=class: previous-question-title]Have you lived or worked outside the UK?[/TD] [TD=class: previous-question-body] Yes[/TD] [TD=class: link-right] Change answer to "Have you lived or worked outside the UK?" [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Last updated: 19 January 2015

Basically the plan changed recently, hence my presence on these various forums, and current planner advised us yesterday that the move to UK is beyond their skills and experience. It worth looking in all the nooks and crannies of the eligibilty site I posted earlier and its worth playing with this https://www.gov.uk/calculate-state-pension - quite strange - if I do nothing I still get 3.77 a week ! Bill

Yes you are correct that is precisely our situation. All relevant pensions have been in place for a few years now so if I work in UK it threatens centrelink pension for my wife. But it was worth a look. The paperwork and documentation required for centrelink was astonishing and our accountant told us that he thinks some of his clients were too intimidated by the process and gave up even though they were entitled. I have greatly appreciated the information available on this thread it has been very useful and helpful, thankyou. The mantra of most financial planners I have spoken to is that everybodies situation is unique/different and you cannot assume that what works in one case will be applicable in another case. All the various ways of getting credits for the pension are Listed in the depths of the uk govt website there could be some variations that apply to all sorts of different personal scenarios could be worth a detailed trawl through for anybody considering shifting back. Start here (https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance-credits/eligibility) and trawl through all links that might be relevant to your own situation. Bill

Thanks for the tips and links about possibly working for UK pension. Very interesting. Anybody considering this would have to consider whether or not it jeopordises (spelloing ?) a partners Australian centrelink pension. Is it possible to simply purchase a UK pension similar to purchasing a commercial product ? I know back payments are possible. Not sure if it would be worthwhile or competitive with other products, or why I might want to, simply dont know enough yet. Am scouring the gov.uk website for more info this afternoon. All good questions for the Fin Planner and the tax accountants in UK when I go back this year. Bill