Guest Gollywobbler Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I have had a brief look through the Australian Government Actuary publication (thanks for the link to that, Gill), and it seems that the report assumes a second Visa Application Charge of $25,000 per visa application, with an average number of persons per visa application of 1.77 (see 3.12). Of course the second VAC is paid by each applicant ... I am minded to write to the AGA to ask for clarification of this point. Point 5.9 is also very relevant. Best regards. Hi Alan I've just seen your post saying that you have faxed the Actuary - thank you very much indeed for that. The AGA Report which I quoted in my reply to the poster before you seems to be the "original" - ie it was the one that was commissioned by DIAC shortly before the CP Scheme was introduced. The 2003/4 2nd Instalment, when the Scheme was new, was indeed A$25K. However the AGA also produces a Composite Index every year. To me it is a load of algebraic double dutch but it obviously informs the decision about what the 2nd Instalment should be set at year on year. For example, the current Composite Index is here: Calculation of Contributory Parent Visa Composite Index for 2007/08 — Australian Government Actuary I agree with you about the 1.77 persons. 3,500 visas = "2nd Instalment x 3,500 less only [what must be a tiny number of] dependents under the age of 18," I would have thought. If the under 18s are taken into account I should think it would still come out at 1.99 if not slightly higher in terms of money handed over by way of the 2nd Instalment. The 2006/7 DIAC Report says they have been and still are receiving an average of 325 new applications per month, representing some 525 new applicants per month. That works out at 1.62 persons per application according to Excel, not the 1.77 assumed by the AGA. Please see below and scroll down to the section on Parents: 1.1.2 Family entry (permanent) - Output 1.1- Annual Report 2006-07 Clause 5.9 of the AGA's Report is just plain depressing if you ask me.... Personally I think it represents a skewed view of Parent migration. One would have thought that a Report so old would long since have been archived and forgotten, yet the chap you spoke with in Canberra several months ago quoted the AGA's conclusions verbatim. Perhaps at the time DIAC felt that the last Government was so convinced by the AGA's report that there would be no possibility of persuading the then Minister to increase the quota. I'm simply hoping that the new Minister will consider Clause 5.9 of the Report to be highly relevant and will take all the socio-economic benefits of Parent migration into account even if there is no way to calculate them on an actuarial basis. Many thanks Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Where'sTheWind Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Which brings us back to the issue of "Lies, damned lies and statistics," I fear. It is amazing how the "design parameters" of the hypothesis can be made to support the political outcome desired, it seems to me! Austibeach constructed his own hypothesis using different design parameters and came up with a powerfully more rosy result! LOL I couldtn't agree more. Ultimately it comes down to philospohy - if they want to do, they'll make the numbers fit. Interesting to hear you mention Labor's attitude to the whole family migration issue. I'd read, in another forum, an off-the-cuff remark someone made to the same effect, but I could never actually find any Labor policy document which indicated any specific intention to visit this area. I guess it's not a headline type of area for them. But brownie points for trying to understand the internal machinations of government policy creation - you're game! Cheers WTW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Where'sTheWind Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Hello there! If there are no changes to the number of permitted CP visas granted annually I think it likely it will become more important than before to keep a close watch on CP visa applications that were lodged a month or two earlier than yours (or should I say your parents') to gauge when medicals and police clearance certificates are likely to be requested. If you can pre-empt that request you may be able to jump up the pecking order - and in the grand scheme of things that might mean visa grant in an earlier program year. Maybe have a look at this website too: timeline - though I'm not sure how many CP visa applicants register their details on this site. Best regards. Thanks for the advice Alan, that sounds like a very sensible thing to do. Hmmm... now to get them to do it without telling them why ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest InPerth Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Hi Gill, Thanks for the reply. We had lodged a 173 for Mom and Dad in Dec 2005!! Now the reason why its been delayed is because we had a few unforseen hiccups with meds and everything has finally been ironed out with the MOC and meds have been cleared. Thats when I found out from CO that grants have been temp stopped. Since then have found out a lot more thanks to you and Allan on this forum some very very good posts indeed. You can imagine what its been like since the time we lodged its been a an unpredictable couple of years. Hanging in there but almost lost all sanity with this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 LOL I couldtn't agree more. Ultimately it comes down to philospohy - if they want to do' date=' they'll make the numbers fit. Interesting to hear you mention Labor's attitude to the whole family migration issue. I'd read, in another forum, an off-the-cuff remark someone made to the same effect, but I could never actually find any Labor policy document which indicated any specific intention to visit this area. I guess it's not a headline type of area for them. But brownie points for trying to understand the internal machinations of government policy creation - you're game! Cheers WTW[/quote'] Hi WTW I gather that Labor did not mention Immigration at all in their recent election manifesto. As yet, my impression is that they haven't said enough about Immigration issues for anyone to know what their new policies are going to be. Cheers Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Hi Gill, Thanks for the reply. We had lodged a 173 for Mom and Dad in Dec 2005!! Now the reason why its been delayed is because we had a few unforseen hiccups with meds and everything has finally been ironed out with the MOC and meds have been cleared. Thats when I found out from CO that grants have been temp stopped. Since then have found out a lot more thanks to you and Allan on this forum some very very good posts indeed. You can imagine what its been like since the time we lodged its been a an unpredictable couple of years. Hanging in there but almost lost all sanity with this issue. Hi again IP You poor souls! We had to get a geriatrician's report on my Mum and it took about 3 months between hearing that they wanted this report and our discovering that she had been cleared on the meds. That was quite bad enough. My nerves were in shreds. In your shoes, I would be asking 3 questions of your Parents' CO, being: 1. Are they definitely going to be in line for two of the 3,500 mew visas that will become available on 1 July 2008 regardless of what happens about the quota? 2. What date does the CO have in mind as the Initial Entry Date? 3. If your Parents will be in the new 3,500 visas, when does the POPC plan to ask for the 2nd Instalment? I'm sure they gave us at least 70 days to come up with the money and it could have been 90 days - it was defo one of the two. It we assume 70 days, there is no reason why they can't request the money at the begininng of May, is there, so that they will be ready to make new grants promptly on or after the beginning of July? I can see no reason for them to wait till 1 July before requesting 2nd Instalments. The InitialEntry Date might not be as important to you as it is to some others. Are your Parents already in Oz and merely planning a quick trip to Bali or similar at short notice once their visas are ready? Alternatively are they outside Oz but planning on a swift validation visit anyway prior to making the permanent move? If the date does matter, then for what it is worth, we frontloaded Mum's meds right at the outset. She saw the Panel Doctor on 9 November 2005. The visa application forms were sent on 19th November 2005. She was given the all clear on her meds on 17 Feb 2006 and the visa was eventually granted in mid-Sept 2006. We were planning on Mum returning to Oz very promptly once her visa was granted, but by the beginning of Sept 2006 I was beginning to worry that the Intial Entry Date might be as early as 8 Novenber 2006 - a year after the initial Meds. If so, it would be do-able but quite tight. I explained to the CO that I didn't want Mum to feel that I might be telling her, "Right, here's your visa. Now p*** off back to Australia pronto and get out from under my own feet." If poss, I wanted Mumto feel that she was in control about when to return to Oz. It transpired that the CO had been planning to set the Initial Entry Date for 16 Feb 2007, exactly a year from the eventual meds clearance. She instantly offered to extend the date if we wanted more time, but since she was offering much longer than I was expecting there was no need to ask for an extension. I'd be inclined to check this, however, because I don't know how consistent they are about this between one CO and the next. Cheers Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest InPerth Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Hi Gill, Decided to call the CO and clarify the points you brought up: 1. I was told we are GUARANTEED 2 visas on the 1st of July when 3500 visas come out infact all people who are in the situation where all requirements (PCC,meds,AoS) for the visa have been met have very little to worry about. 2. Our meds had a problem as I had mentioned previously. And we had to get reports from a geriatrician, cardio and a few specialists. keeping that in mind the Initial entry would be about 3 months from grant!!! (but I think thats normal anyway?) because they (and to some extent us as well) would not want to have meds expiring and all that. So in our situation if IE is in 3 months we will take it even though there will be panic packing to do! 3. Lastly the 2nd VAC. It shouldnt take long betw the payment and grant especially a wait till July is looking definate. *sigh....I hope it all works out. For us and everyone eg Caz etc. Maybe a big get together is on the tables once we have all "made it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Hi IP I don't understand your second paragraph, numbered 2. By the time Mum had seen the geriatrician etc about 3 months had elapsed since she had seen the Panel Doctor. They gave her 12 months from the date of the eventual meds clearance i which to make her initial entry to Oz. The visa was granted about 6 months after the meds clearace (we had frontloaded the meds because we suspected that there might be a probllem with them.) So we had about6 months in hand for Mumto make the initial entry which was plenty of time in our own case. I was quite surprised that they calculated the 12 months from the date of the eventual meds clearance because I imagined that it would probably be 12 months from the date of Mum's initial examination by the Panel Doctor. They were more generous than I was expecting them to be about this. So I'm puzzled by your reference to 3 months. Are you saying that if the visa is granted on 1st July your parents will have 3 months in hand in which to make their initial entry? At the time when Mum's visa was granted, she was neck & neck with another old lady. The other lady's daughter and were in constant touch with each other during the final 3 months or so. Her mother had had to give a Health Undertaking and the timing became very tight. In the end they got the old lady into Australia with just six days to spare before the deadline expired. Apparently the POPC were very helpful. Anne, the daughter, lives in Bunbury but they were using an Agent in Perth. The Agent was holding a bank draft for the 2nd Istalment. As soon as the POPC faxed her the letter asking for the money, the Agent leapt into her car and took the draft to the CO in person. The visa was granted later the same day. Alan Collett has managed to do this as well for one of his clients. He faxed the mandate for the money in the morning and the visa was granted that afternoon. He mentioned it in a post on one of the forums. It is frustrating to have to wait till July but at least you do now have a definite time-frame to work to. Please keep in touch and let us know how you get on. Best wishes Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Hi All If there are no changes to the number of permitted CP visas granted annually I think it likely it will become more important than before to keep a close watch on CP visa applications that were lodged a month or two earlier than yours (or should I say your parents') to gauge when medicals and police clearance certificates are likely to be requested. If you can pre-empt that request you may be able to jump up the pecking order - and in the grand scheme of things that might mean visa grant in an earlier program year. The above is a comment that Alan Collett made earlier in this thread. One of the people following the thread contacted thePOPC to find out when they are likely to hear from a CO etc, and then kindly e-mailed me with an update. I think the phone call was last Tuesday or so. The person was told that COs are currently contacting people whose applications were lodged during the 3rd week in May 2007 asking them for meds and police checks where these have not already been done. Apparently there are currently 1,000 applicants whose meds and police checks have been cleared but for whom visas are not yet available. Regardless of what happens about the quota, another 3,500 CP visas will definitely be available from 1st July. Seemingly visas have been reserved for all 1,000 people whose meds and police have been cleared. Cheers Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welshtone Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Hi June What you are asking is will you be medically cleared and in the next 3,500 places for 2008/2009 ? This will depend on how quick your medicals are cleared. All you can do is get them sorted as quick as possible and hope that no referral on them is required. If any of your family have medical conditions or operations in the last 5 years, may be worth ringing the assessing Dr's office to see if previous reports or getting a new specialist report will speed things up. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JoanneHattersley Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Seemingly visas have been reserved for all 1,000 people whose meds and police have been cleared. Cheers Gill Woo-hoo! Good news for Mum! They are getting so bored waiting now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marilyn Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 I received an email from my case officer yesterday and I quote All requirements have now been met. Now it is a matter of waiting for the Governments decision with regards to our visa quota. Once a decision is made we will advise applicants of waiting times before grant. I assume there are 3 months worth of applicants before me so hope to hear I have a visa at the beginning of July unless the Government increases the quota. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JoanneHattersley Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 I received an email from my case officer yesterday and I quote All requirements have now been met. Now it is a matter of waiting for the Governments decision with regards to our visa quota. Once a decision is made we will advise applicants of waiting times before grant. I assume there are 3 months worth of applicants before me so hope to hear I have a visa at the beginning of July unless the Government increases the quota. Good LUck! Mum and Dad had everything sorted just before Xmas and then they were scuppered when the "freeze" happened! 1 July it will be all systems go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 I received an email from my case officer yesterday and I quote All requirements have now been met. Now it is a matter of waiting for the Governments decision with regards to our visa quota. Once a decision is made we will advise applicants of waiting times before grant. I assume there are 3 months worth of applicants before me so hope to hear I have a visa at the beginning of July unless the Government increases the quota. Hi Marilyn Welcome to Poms in Oz. You can ditch the cardiologist's appointment unless you want to do see him/her anyway! Please keep us all informed on your progress with the remainder. Best wishes Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marilyn Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Thanks. Will let you know when I hear anything. Marilyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest InPerth Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Hi IP I don't understand your second paragraph, numbered 2. By the time Mum had seen the geriatrician etc about 3 months had elapsed since she had seen the Panel Doctor. They gave her 12 months from the date of the eventual meds clearance i which to make her initial entry to Oz. The visa was granted about 6 months after the meds clearace (we had frontloaded the meds because we suspected that there might be a probllem with them.) So we had about6 months in hand for Mumto make the initial entry which was plenty of time in our own case. I was quite surprised that they calculated the 12 months from the date of the eventual meds clearance because I imagined that it would probably be 12 months from the date of Mum's initial examination by the Panel Doctor. They were more generous than I was expecting them to be about this. So I'm puzzled by your reference to 3 months. Are you saying that if the visa is granted on 1st July your parents will have 3 months in hand in which to make their initial entry? At the time when Mum's visa was granted, she was neck & neck with another old lady. The other lady's daughter and were in constant touch with each other during the final 3 months or so. Her mother had had to give a Health Undertaking and the timing became very tight. In the end they got the old lady into Australia with just six days to spare before the deadline expired. Apparently the POPC were very helpful. Anne, the daughter, lives in Bunbury but they were using an Agent in Perth. The Agent was holding a bank draft for the 2nd Istalment. As soon as the POPC faxed her the letter asking for the money, the Agent leapt into her car and took the draft to the CO in person. The visa was granted later the same day. Alan Collett has managed to do this as well for one of his clients. He faxed the mandate for the money in the morning and the visa was granted that afternoon. He mentioned it in a post on one of the forums. It is frustrating to have to wait till July but at least you do now have a definite time-frame to work to. Please keep in touch and let us know how you get on. Best wishes Gill Hi Gill, We got the visa grant, finally after 2 YEARS and a bit!. I just got a call from the case officer beginning of this week telling me he is emailing the request for the 2nd Visa Application Charge. I read in one of the threads that at times they dont wait at all after the 2nd VPC and turns out they didnt. As soon as I paid up I got the grant email starightaway. All this is good but there is one little thing. Our initial entry date is end of May this year!!!! Thats abt 3 months. Now I was told that my Mom had medicals cleared last year in May and my Dad had to go through additional stuff eg geriatrician reports and all. And he was cleared November 2007. They have decided to give me an entry date which is 12 months from Moms clearance and not Dads. Frankly, I didnt argue much as 3 months should be ok for us even though its not the most convenient situation. Thought I will let you know of the outcome. Thanks heaps for all your suppirt and advice Gill, Allan and all you guys out there. I am still not going to disappear because we now have to do the whole thing again!! We will need to convert the 173 to the 143. We simply couldnt do the 143 back in 2005 when we first applied because we had no one to do the AoS for us. and 10 years is a long time to ask someone to be of assistance! We hadnt thought it would take us 2 years and I thought it best not to withdraw the 173 and go for 143 instead we will do it now. I can now be the assurer as well as the sponsor. So for us its back to the start and go through the whole thing all over again. Cheers IP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Hi IP BRILLIANT NEWS!!!!:jiggy::jiggy: I am absolutely delighted for you & your Parents. I agree that having to vakidate by dd/05/2008 is a pain but that is much less of a pain than having to re-do your Mom's meds in order to get a validation date of dd/11/2008. Check the requirements for upgrading from the CP 173 to the CP 173. From memory I don't think it makes any difference where your Parents are either at the start or the end of that process, but check the website and make sure about this bit, Isuggest. I've heard that the upgrade is done in about 4 months. It is not part of the quota system. Please keep us posted and let us know when your Parents will be travelling to Perth to validate their new visas. Please give your parents a cyber-hug from me. Best wishes Gill :jiggy::jiggy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest maff Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Hi All, Can Anyone Tell Us What This Second Visa Application Charge Of $25-000 Means. Please Say Its Not On Top Of The $74-000 Per Couple You Have To Pay Already. Thanks Maff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Hi All, Can Anyone Tell Us What This Second Visa Application Charge Of $25-000 Means. Please Say Its Not On Top Of The $74-000 Per Couple You Have To Pay Already. Thanks Maff Hiya Maff Nice to see you again here on Poms in Oz. Fear not, chooks! The 2nd Visa Appplication Charge is exactly the same thing as the 2nd Instalment. There are merely inter-changeable terms, so there is nothing to fear. Best wishes Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest maff Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Hi Gill, Thanks For Coming To Our Rescue Once Again, We Were Really Worried For A Minute There. The Reason We Havent Been On Pio For A While Is We Have Been Having Trouble Logging In,dont Know If Its Our Computer Or What Has Anyone Else Been Having Trouble?. Can You Tell Us Where We Can Get Booklet 3 That You Have Been Mentioning.we Cant Start The Paperwork For Our Visa Till July, And Cant Apply For Visa Till December As Son And Family Wont Have Been In Adelaide For 2years Till Then,its So Hard For Us As We Miss Them So Much. Any Help Or Advice Anyone Can Give Us Out There Would Be Much Appreciated. Is Anyone In Same Position As Us?. Its Such A Big Step For Us,but We Have Got Until July To Make Our Minds Up For Sure. We Are 57 And 54 Years Old, I Really Admire The Older People Who Do This.its Bad Enough At Our Age. Many Thanks Elaine And Maff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Hello Elaine & Maff Welcome to Poms in Oz. I don't know why you have been having difficulty logging on to PiO. The best thing is to e-mail Tim (Site Admin) on contact@pomsinoz.com if you cannot log in, or send him a Private Message if you can. (His user name is Tim. Look to the top right of your screen where it says "Welcome, maff." Click on Private Messages.) I will send you a PM in a minute with my e-mail address in case you can't log on at any time and I'll PM you via Poms in Adelaide as well. Why can't you start the paperwork for your CPV application until July, please? How many children do you have between you (including children of previous relationships) and where does each of them live, please? From what you have said so far, I am puzzled about what is delaying you from making a CPV application in the immediate future, and at any rate before 30th June 2008? Rather than write a speculative book about this, please have a look at the link below, and please ask your son in Adelaide to read the case report as well. http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/MRTA/2004/7298.html?query=Contributory%20Parent%20Visa%20%20%20Sponsor%20%20%20Settled There is actually a very recent 2007 case that potentially pushes the boundaries even further than Sampson but it only does so by a process of interpolation, whereas Sampson is bang-on the money. As long as your son in Adelaide has become “settled” there, he will have been living there for 17 months by May 2008. Getting a CPV application for you to the POPC on 29th June 2008 would beat the fees increase, for sure, and if the only issue is whether or not your son is “settled” then there is a very strong chance that there is no need to wait till December 2008 before you could even apply for your CPVs. So what is causing the other hang-up about July 2008? Is there also a Balance of Family Test issue here, which will not come right for you until July 2008? If you could supply more information about the facts, please, I may be able to help further. Best wishes Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest maff Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 WE WERE TOLD BY THE AGENT WHO WILL BE ACTING FOR US THAT SON HAD TO BE IN OZ FOR 2YEARS BEFORE WE COULD APPLY. WE HAVE 2 SONS 1 THAT LIVES IN UK, SO DONT THINK ITS BALANCE OF FAMILY. WOULD IT BE TO MUCH HASSLE TO APPLY BEFORE 2YEARS IS UP. THANKS FOR REPLY, ELAINE AND MAFF:huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest june coates Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 hi all, i have been reading threads about getting confirmation from case officer that meds and pcs have been cleared.i havent had written confirmation yet (meds done in jan.)but spoke to case officer and she said they were all cleared.she said that if i havnt heard anything in 1-2 months,to ring her again.another question is, can i apply for permanent visa as soon as tempory one is allocated and if so will i have to leave the country again for it to be granted? june Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Hi June They don't supply anything in writing to confirm that the meds & pccs are OK - apart from a visa! Yes, you can apply for the CP143 as soon as you like after your CP173 is granted. You can be in Australia throughout the process for the upgrade. How is your arm now? Hugz Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 WE WERE TOLD BY THE AGENT WHO WILL BE ACTING FOR US THAT SON HAD TO BE IN OZ FOR 2YEARS BEFORE WE COULD APPLY. WE HAVE 2 SONS 1 THAT LIVES IN UK, SO DONT THINK ITS BALANCE OF FAMILY. WOULD IT BE TO MUCH HASSLE TO APPLY BEFORE 2YEARS IS UP. THANKS FOR REPLY, ELAINE AND MAFF:huh: Hi Elaine & Maff Lots of people have applied when the relevant child has not been in Oz for as long as two years and they have not had any hassles. I agree with you. If you only have two children then this is not a Balance of Family issue. Does your son in Adelaide have Permanent Residence in Oz, though? Some skilled visas are only temporary to begin with, and although the idea of the child having to have lived in Oz for a set length of time is certainly not what the law says, the legislation does require that the child in Australia must, must, must have Permanent Residence before the Parents' CPV application can be submitted. If this is nothing more than your Agent trying to insist on two years owing to the Agent having an insufficient knowledge of this area of Law (not at all uncommon) I'd suggest that you ring Tony Coates of Ian Harrop & Associates near Oxford and have a word with him. Tony knows what he is doing with CPV applications and he certainly wouldn't make you hang around unnecessarily before you can apply. LIke me, Tony would be looking to see whether you can beat the 30th June 2008 deadline and thereby avoid the uplift in visa application charges that will undoubtedly happen on 1st July 2008. Please click on the link below for contact details for Ian Harrop & Associates. You need the Burford number for Tony Coates: Registered Australian Migration Agents, UK - Ian Harrop and Associates Best wishes Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.