Shigella Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Yes, I already support a couple of ERF for Aus groups on Facebook (am I allowed to say that?). However, I don't think the responsibility lies with the manufacturers. There's no need to reinvent the wheel when a good number of manufacturers already make ERF seats tested to the highest standards. All that is needed is for the law to be changed to drop the ridiculous top tether requirement and (ideally) to accept good international standards (such as the European ones). The manufacturers would quickly bring their existing products to Aus then, particularly if they didn't have the cost of retesting their seats to the Australian standard. Better for Australian parents and, above all, better for the safety of Australian kids. But then, I am sure it never was about the safety of children but more about the lining of pockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 This is also really bothering me. I use Be Safe Izi Combi with Isofix and dd2 is still in one at 15 mths. I just cannot find a way around it all and have resigned myself to the fact that in 3 months when we move she will be forward facing. Am tempted to sent dh on alone until she is too big for the seat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shigella Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 This is also really bothering me. I use Be Safe Izi Combi with Isofix and dd2 is still in one at 15 mths. I just cannot find a way around it all and have resigned myself to the fact that in 3 months when we move she will be forward facing. Am tempted to sent dh on alone until she is too big for the seat! My problem is that I cannot "un-know" about the risks of forward facing and so I must rear face my children in good conscience. I couldn't live with myself if I turned them forward and the worst happened. "But it's the law" would be cold comfort. I could, however, live with a fine or even a court case and would consider it a golden opportunity to publicise the merits of ERF and the risks to Australian children under current legislation. But yes, it's a cruel dilemma - break the law or endanger your child. :err: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Yes, I already support a couple of ERF for Aus groups on Facebook (am I allowed to say that?). However, I don't think the responsibility lies with the manufacturers. There's no need to reinvent the wheel when a good number of manufacturers already make ERF seats tested to the highest standards.All that is needed is for the law to be changed to drop the ridiculous top tether requirement and (ideally) to accept good international standards (such as the European ones). The manufacturers would quickly bring their existing products to Aus then, particularly if they didn't have the cost of retesting their seats to the Australian standard. Better for Australian parents and, above all, better for the safety of Australian kids. But then, I am sure it never was about the safety of children but more about the lining of pockets. The top tether is actually a good thing for non Isofix car seats. It does help make them more secure that just a seatbelt, at least for FF. IN ERF they are not needed of course because of other tethers etc. When Isofix is finally in use I feel they will keep the top tether still and use the LATCH system like in the US. But they may do away with it, who knows. The reinvent the wheel thing, yes, I agree with you in some ways but Australia isn't the EU. International standards don't apply with car seats. EU standards, US standards and more. There is no one that surpasses all others, so that the Aussies have their own, well, ideal world and all that but that isn't going to happen. They are at least improved standards to what was in place and while I agree I'd like to see changes, again, those wheels turn slowly. And Isofix is on the way which is better than not at all. And yes, the lining of pockets thing, reading about the Aussie resistance to Isofix and other safety standards from some corners, you do have to question things with regards to car seat manufacture and so on. A lot of money to be made and potentially lost in all this :\ The way of the corporate world alas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 This is also really bothering me. I use Be Safe Izi Combi with Isofix and dd2 is still in one at 15 mths. I just cannot find a way around it all and have resigned myself to the fact that in 3 months when we move she will be forward facing. Am tempted to sent dh on alone until she is too big for the seat! I don't like to get into the whole legal thing here. Feel free to drop me a PM if you want to chat about it a bit more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 My problem is that I cannot "un-know" about the risks of forward facing and so I must rear face my children in good conscience. I couldn't live with myself if I turned them forward and the worst happened. "But it's the law" would be cold comfort. I could, however, live with a fine or even a court case and would consider it a golden opportunity to publicise the merits of ERF and the risks to Australian children under current legislation. But yes, it's a cruel dilemma - break the law or endanger your child. :err:I think parents who have made a decision to ERF do struggle with this. It is such a hard thing to consider, placing your child forward facing when you know what you know. I have heard all the arguments about forward facing, chance of accident and so on, none of it changes how I feel. I know ERF is safer and given the statistics of Aussie road accidents and injuries etc it is cause for concern for me. I struggled with it for a loooooooong time. Hence my researching it no end and finding all the info I could gather so I was able to decide for myself what I wanted to do once we move. Doing the research, I am aware of all the pros and cons and my mind is made up. I'm happy with my decision. I keep plugging away for more ERF options in Aus and live in hope a car seat or two is sold there soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Shigella if you could pm me info about the law it would be great - I cant remember how to pm on this site and its been a long day!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shigella Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 For anyone who is passionate about Extended Rear Facing: http://www.cadoges.com/auto-quotes/2010/10/17/safe-child-restraint-in-modern-cars-australia-v-europe.html Watch it all and send it to your friends with children or grandchildren under 5, too. Then write to your Aussie MP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 My problem is that I cannot "un-know" about the risks of forward facing and so I must rear face my children in good conscience. I couldn't live with myself if I turned them forward and the worst happened. "But it's the law" would be cold comfort. I could, however, live with a fine or even a court case and would consider it a golden opportunity to publicise the merits of ERF and the risks to Australian children under current legislation. But yes, it's a cruel dilemma - break the law or endanger your child. :err: I'll remake the comment I've made before. It may be that your insurance company could be sympathetic towards the use of a car seat not approved for use in Australia. But, if the worst happened and someone hit your car - resulting in injuries to your child that required treatment - you can bet that the insurance company of the other driver would argue that the injuries were a result of the non-approved seat being used and refuse to cover your child's medical care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pintpot Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Straight question for ERF advocates: How does it fare, relatively, against forward facing seats for *non* frontal impacts, ie impacts from the side or hen hit from behind ISTR when I was involved with accident stats (for a motorbike group, it's a long story) that whilst head-on or frontal impacts were obviously the most severe, there were also a lot less frequent than others. As far as I recall, the side impact (someone pulling out of side road, or pulling into one, without looking properly) was much more common I'd like to know how ERF fares in these, because the only stat I seem to see is one relating to frontal impacts. Obviously it's going to be way better for those, you just have to think about the physics for a couple of milliseconds. But what about the others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Straight question for ERF advocates: How does it fare, relatively, against forward facing seats for *non* frontal impacts, ie impacts from the side or hen hit from behind ISTR when I was involved with accident stats (for a motorbike group, it's a long story) that whilst head-on or frontal impacts were obviously the most severe, there were also a lot less frequent than others. As far as I recall, the side impact (someone pulling out of side road, or pulling into one, without looking properly) was much more common I'd like to know how ERF fares in these, because the only stat I seem to see is one relating to frontal impacts. Obviously it's going to be way better for those, you just have to think about the physics for a couple of milliseconds. But what about the others? It fares very well. They are tested for those angles also. People seem to think its only for front end collision, but side and rear are a big factor also. Plenty of documentation and stories online about it Explain it far better than I can in type. I personally did all my research for ERF before our son was a year old and needing to FF. Once I'd read up on it all it was a no brainer for me. And he has a car seat that can last him 5 years so worth the extra spend. I would rather spend a bit less on a few other things than cut corners on a car seat. A lot of gits on the road these days and they are far busier with people travelling quicker and all that. FWIW, I never intended this thread to become a debate about FF v ERF. Its personal choice at the end of the day. People can make their own minds up. I won't shove it down anyones throat but I've included the info and will discuss it here if people ask about it or want to know more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shigella Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 As snifter says, there is plenty of evidence out there concerning ERF seats in non-frontal collisions and for us the decision was also a no-brainer after extensive research. We also use ERF seats with a long seat shell and high (25kg) weight limit to allow ERF for as long as possible. We use seats tested under the new Swedish T Plus test which measures the actual forces on the crash test dummy, rather than how well the seat survives an accident - there doesn't seem to be much value in ending up with a perfectly preserved seat containing a child with a broken neck so it's these results that interest me the most. It's not worth reposting all the links and research since it's all easily searchable, however, I will link this story as it is a recent and graphic demonstration of the merits of ERF even in a rear-end collision. As to whether insurance in Australia might be invalidated due to a non-Australian seat, this is obviously a very personal decision for any parent. However, given that a child in a forward facing seat is 5 times more likely to suffer serious or fatal injury than in a rear facing seat, I'd rather go with the seat that will reduce the chances of requiring high level medical treatment and take my chances on the insurance. Another parent may reach a different decision and fair play to them. Hopefully by the time we are ready to move in a few years time there will be an option of a local ERF seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pintpot Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Plenty of documentation and stories online about it Explain it far better than I can in type. As snifter says, there is plenty of evidence out there concerning ERF seats in non-frontal collisions and for us the decision was also a no-brainer after extensive research. It's not worth reposting all the links and research since it's all easily searchable, however, I will link this story as it is a recent and graphic demonstration of the merits of ERF even in a rear-end collision. Well, I don't think it is easy to find to be honest, that's why I asked. The vast majority of websites out there seem to be partisan ones However, given that a child in a forward facing seat is 5 times more likely to suffer serious or fatal injury than in a rear facing seat, I'd rather go with the seat that will reduce the chances of requiring high level medical treatment and take my chances on the insurance. Isn't it the case that they are 5 times more likely to suffer that in a frontal collision? That's the stat I keep seeing quoted, but I'm 99% sure it's a qualified one that applies to head-on/frontal impacts. That, again, is why I asked I'm not trying to stir or argue - I am genuinely interested in facts, I am just finding facts a struggle to find on this matter because so many of the resources out there just stink of bias and emotive language Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Well, I don't think it is easy to find to be honest, that's why I asked. The vast majority of websites out there seem to be partisan ones Isn't it the case that they are 5 times more likely to suffer that in a frontal collision? That's the stat I keep seeing quoted, but I'm 99% sure it's a qualified one that applies to head-on/frontal impacts. That, again, is why I asked I'm not trying to stir or argue - I am genuinely interested in facts, I am just finding facts a struggle to find on this matter because so many of the resources out there just stink of bias and emotive language There is this website and a bit about rear end crashes http://rearfacing.co.uk/faqs.php#rear They also have a forum and links to other sites that may be able to explain it better for you. And on the Links page are these http://myangelsaliandpeanut.tripod.com/id5.html http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/13/6/398.abstract The Rearfacing website has plenty of info on the subject. And yes, lots of the stuff you read is biased or emotive. Parents on FB groups, blogs and so on, they feel strongly about it if they are ERF parents. I try to be less so as I know how it can seem when a parenting 'choice' is shoved down your throat. Not everyone wants to ERF or knows about it. Not everyone wants to spend the time researching to understand it better. Not everyone wants to or can afford to spent that bit extra on the seat. Many people don't get past that their child will be miserable facing backwards or that the car seat is too bulky. But those that do often find themselves reading more and some decide to go with ERF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 It's not at all relevant but I find it interesting that Rear Facing airline seats were proposed in the 1960s on the grounds that they were safer in the event of an aircrash. They never caught on with the airlines (who all insisted that their passengers wouldn't accept this) but the RAF's troop transport fleet all adopted this (I don't know if they still do but the VC10s and BAC-111s they were flying in the 70s had all the seats rearfacing and no, before you ask, that didn't apply to the pilots seats). The UK government chickened out of making rear facing airline seats compulsory in civil airliners because the state owned BA (or its forerunners BOAC and BEA) insisted that passengers would switch to their foreign competitors (who would still be allowed forward facing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sir Les Patterson Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 It's not at all relevant but I find it interesting that Rear Facing airline seats were proposed in the 1960s on the grounds that they were safer in the event of an aircrash. They never caught on with the airlines (who all insisted that their passengers wouldn't accept this) but the RAF's troop transport fleet all adopted this (I don't know if they still do but the VC10s and BAC-111s they were flying in the 70s had all the seats rearfacing and no, before you ask, that didn't apply to the pilots seats). The UK government chickened out of making rear facing airline seats compulsory in civil airliners because the state owned BA (or its forerunners BOAC and BEA) insisted that passengers would switch to their foreign competitors (who would still be allowed forward facing). Ken, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but in the event of an airliner crashing......... a large majority, if not all passengers are going to be killed no matter what way the seats are facing. This of course has no bearing whatever on the thread topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 It's not at all relevant but I find it interesting that Rear Facing airline seats were proposed in the 1960s on the grounds that they were safer in the event of an aircrash. They never caught on with the airlines (who all insisted that their passengers wouldn't accept this) but the RAF's troop transport fleet all adopted this (I don't know if they still do but the VC10s and BAC-111s they were flying in the 70s had all the seats rearfacing and no, before you ask, that didn't apply to the pilots seats). The UK government chickened out of making rear facing airline seats compulsory in civil airliners because the state owned BA (or its forerunners BOAC and BEA) insisted that passengers would switch to their foreign competitors (who would still be allowed forward facing). There is a lot to be said for rear facing. I recall reading some information about train crashes and how passengers facing backwards suffered lesser injuries and loss of life than those who were forward facing. On forward impact the seat acts as protection and absorbs their impact rather than then being flung forward off their seat. If you watch the crash test videos for FF and RF car seats its rather scary to see the differences in how the dummy's move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oidara Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 Hi guys, Still struggling with this car seat issue, especially for our middle child who is only 2 years 3 months. On the following thread, someone mentions RF seats in NZ that RF to 18kg: http://www.huggies.com.au/forum/topic/2643046-Rear-Facing-Car-Seats-for-older-kids/ Quote: "The websites I am going to link you to are NZ ones, but the seats conform to Aussie standards so you can have a look and see if you can get them in OZ or can import them from NZ. They rear face to 18kg and about 100cm tall and the Evenflo harnesses to 29.5kg FF. EvenfloSymphony65e3Milo Safety 1st Complete Air LX" Does anyone know if it's true that seats legal in NZ are also legal in Australia? I have been trying to verify this to no avail so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Hi guys, Still struggling with this car seat issue, especially for our middle child who is only 2 years 3 months. On the following thread, someone mentions RF seats in NZ that RF to 18kg: http://www.huggies.com.au/forum/topic/2643046-Rear-Facing-Car-Seats-for-older-kids/ Quote: "The websites I am going to link you to are NZ ones, but the seats conform to Aussie standards so you can have a look and see if you can get them in OZ or can import them from NZ. They rear face to 18kg and about 100cm tall and the Evenflo harnesses to 29.5kg FF. EvenfloSymphony65e3Milo Safety 1st Complete Air LX" Does anyone know if it's true that seats legal in NZ are also legal in Australia? I have been trying to verify this to no avail so far. Not that I am aware of. Aus approved car seats can be used in NZ, but the reverse is not true, ie NZ rated car seats cannot be used in Aus if they don't have the Aus standards approval also. They have to have passed the Aus safety standards and I don't think either of these have done so. There is a NZ site that deals with ERF in NZ but it won't export car seats to Aus for the obvious reasons. If they had passed Aus standards you could bet people all over Aus would be buying and using them there, but I've never heard they have. Currently there is not one single ERF car seat available or passed Aus standards available. Safe n Sound are closest but its still a ways off from happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oidara Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 Thanks. That's disappointing. So that means 12kg is the RF limit, right? I read somewhere that you go by height not weight on some seat models and that you can therefore RF for longer if you choose your seat wisely. Can anyone recommend a seat that allows RF for as long as possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 There is this site also, very helpful and I've swapped a number of emails with them http://www.childrestraints.co.nz/australia.php The car seats you list oidara are only passed to NZ standards. There is no mention of Aus/NZ 1754, only NZ 1754 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Thanks. That's disappointing. So that means 12kg is the RF limit, right? I read somewhere that you go by height not weight on some seat models and that you can therefore RF for longer if you choose your seat wisely. Can anyone recommend a seat that allows RF for as long as possible? Aus car seat manufacturers, some of them, are changing how they grade infants in terms of when to move them up. The capsules its pretty much 12kg is the maximum you can keep a baby in them to. If you are lucky this is about 1 year old, but often younger. Also many babies outgrow the seat in length. The height thing is new and not all car seat makers are using it yet. Some of the bigger ones are and their second stage car seats and above use this. I'll drop you a PM re ERF car seats later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Doubly so those seats are not Aus approved as they are LATCH fixed and ISOFIX isn't in use over there yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I decided to split the ERF posts from the car seat thread. This thread is now for discussion of extended rear facing car seats in Australia (or the lack of them). All information on all types of car seats in Australia can be found in this thread. http://www.pomsinoz.com/forum/transport-shipping/123214-car-seats-australia-what-you-need-know.html I shall post the first post contents below also. **** Many people making the move to Australia are not aware that their UK car seats are not legal in Australia. Even if they have the latest, newest and highest rated UK/EU car seat, it won't matter a jot. It will be illegal to use in a car in Australia. Australian car seats are top tethered and have to be approved to Australian standards. Imported car seats are not tested or legal. So what do you need to know Child restraint laws What seat does my child need? Up to 6 months: Your baby must be restrained in an approved rearward facing child restraint like an infant capsule or a convertible car seat specifically designed for newborn babies. (NB - Just because you can turn your child forward facing at 6 months in Australia doesn't mean you should. Rear facing for as long as possible is advised for safety reasons). 6 months to 4-years-old: Your child must be in either a rearward facing or forward facing child restraint, such as a child safety seat. 4-years-old to 7-years-old: Your child must be in either a forward facing child restraints or a booster seat restrained by a correctly adjusted and fastened seatbelt or child safety harness. You can read this information on RAC Australia, BabyCenter.com.au and also here at bubhub.com.au and kidssafewa.com.au. Just a number of websites online, national and different states, basically all saying the same thing with regard to the car seat laws. They are a national thing, regardless of state now. Car seat safety test findings from CREP (Child Restraint Evaluation Program) This is the body that tests car seats on the Australian market. It has safety ratings for all types of seats. Click on the appropriate age group to view the results. Be aware some of these car seats are no longer available and newer models have been brought out. Also they are not the be all and end all in terms of testing and you should always take into account other information, test results and so on also. http://www.crep.com.au/crep-results.php# What type of car seat do I need to be looking at? Capsule/Infant carrier - From birth to 9 months/1 year 9 or 12kg (depending on car seat limits) These are rear facing car seats. Convertible car seat - Suitable from birth, rear facing from birth to weight/size limit then forward facing till 4 years Forward facing car seats - 6 months - 4 years Booster seats - 4-7 years of age. Both harnessed and seatbelt fitted. Highbacked fitted with top tether is becoming the norm. A few other things - * Britax is called Safe n Sound in Australia. They sell their car seats nationally. There website is here - http://www.britax.com.au/ * Maxi Cosi is Maxi Cosi - They currently don't appear to have an Australian website but you can find their car seats for sale online or in stores in Australia. * There is also Facebook group for car seat safety in Adelaide. Adelaide Kids In Cars. Very helpful car seat experts who are more than happy to help answer your questions and more. * Extended rear facing (from 1-4 years of age) is not yet available in Australia. Britax is planning to design and test an extended rear facing car seat in the not too distant future. You can find various groups on Facebook if you are interested in learning more about this. They are Australian Parents for Rear Facing Car Restraints to 18 kg Rear-Facing Down Under Bring Extended Rearfacing To Australia * The Australia system uses the top tether. If you import a UK car you'll need to install tether points for fitting your Aussie car seats properly. * Isofix is not yet legal in Australia. It has however passed a few hurdles and is currently waiting for final approval to enable car seat manufacturers to begin making and testing car seats fitted using Isofix (or the Aussie equivalent if they use the top tether also still). UPDATE July 29 2011 - Isofix is coming to Australia in 2013 - Read more HERE * Please view this webpage to get an idea of a child safety harness for older children no longer needing a car seat - Scroll down the page to the last couple of photos - http://www.childrestraints.co.nz/australia.php You can also find more info over on Carseatsafety.com.au and Roadwise. The original thread for this is over on PIA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oidara Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 Thanks for all of the info, snifter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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