clan mac Posted April 6, 2010 Share Posted April 6, 2010 Hi all, clan mac here! please please help :wideeyed:. OH has been advised by agent to complete carpentry vetassess paperwork (competency profile/trade evidence form). OH is ready to burst into flames :arghh: and I am on the receiving end of a ranting tirade because he thought the agent would be completing this paperwork from information we submitted via a huge document detailing every job and all that it entailed to them a month ago. Has anyone else had their vetassess paperwork completed by their agent? OH is wondering why we are paying someone to assist with skills assessment paperwork and WE are the ones doing the paperwork?? We are using a very reputable agent and I have no doubt that they are doing exactly the right thing by us but I would appreciate any advice? thanks in advance clan mac (nerves in tatters!) x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted April 7, 2010 Share Posted April 7, 2010 Hi Lorraine What you say does not surprise me. I'd call it laziness on the part of the agent. I'd suggest a phone call tomorrow, asking what the point of the lengthy, agent-only document was if the agent was expecting that the agent would take your money but that you would do all the work? I'd be pretty sharp about it because I agree with your OH. I had a similar situation once. Some friends of mine are also clients of mine. I found myself at their house one day, trying to sort out a large bundle of insurance and other forms with the wife. One of the forms was from Radcliffes, well known solicitors in London. They had sent a six page questionnaire about the lady's father's Will Trust. Me: Who administers this Will Trust? The lady: Radcliffes. Me: Well if Radcliffes administer it, why are they asking you what it says and where all the documents for it are? The lady: I don't know and I don't know the answers to these details because Radcliffes deal with it all and they just send me the money periodically. So I don't know what to tell Radcliffes. Me: Well I do. I promptly wrote a letter in the flowery Radcliffes style, saying, "Dear Sirs I return your forms. Please complete them yourselves and then send them to me. I will go through them with our mutual client and ask her whether she thinks your answers to your own questions are correct. I am, dear Sirs, your most obedient and humble servant. Etc" Their senior partner at the time must have been about 95 I reckon. He loved all the old fashioned stuff about obedience, humility and servants - they chuntered about it in all of their letters and e-mails about anything, so I thought that they might as well have some of it back! Lazy little so & sos. Once they got the point that the only people who were going to do their work for them were themselves, they completed their forms in double quick time and sent them to me for approval. Radcliffes are highly illustrious solicitors in London. (I've heard that they act for the General Synod of the CofE and do all the Consistory Court work for the CofE.) They got the message and sorted their own documents out, so I'd be inclined to do the same with any migration agent who expected me to do all the work.... Cheers Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clan mac Posted April 7, 2010 Author Share Posted April 7, 2010 Thank you so much Gill, I have actually been justifying the agents position to my OH and thinking that he had got it wrong! I spent the best part of 2 weeks compiling documents - job descriptions and tasks undertaken for every job Ian had ever done and we have been sent paperwork asking for certified copies of things that we don't have because they are not remotely relevant amongst other things. I appreciate that the certified copies are things that we must get, but my anticipation was that the agent would complete the paperwork based on the comprehensive job descriptions I provided. We have paid out £1200.00 already and it would appear that this fee is simply for checking our forms. I know that this is important and I do appreciate that they must be right, but it does seem rather a lot of money. Notwithstanding this we have been advised for Ian to be assessed as a carpenter, the competency profile/trade evidence form is asking for detailed examples of work that Ian has never undertaken (laying slabs and concreting etc). I am wondering why this would seem suitable for Ian when the detailed documents which I provided do not ever mention concreting/slabbing/landscaping etc. I know that this is what vetassess require, but having looked at the joiner job description this would seem more in line with Ian's expertise. I know that other joiners have posted on here and they too were advised to go with the carpentry assessment so I think that there's probably a reason that I am unaware of why this should be the case. Suffice to say Ian is upstairs seething in his bed, I am down stairs in my dining room come makeshift office burning the midnight oil trying to make sense of it all. I feel hurt, confused and annoyed with myself. Grateful and sincere Thanks for your kind help Gill, as always you provide a guiding light to those of us in distress. Lorraine x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted April 7, 2010 Share Posted April 7, 2010 Hi Lorraine The Vetassess self-assessment forms are here: Preparing for assessment (Trade Occupation) - VETASSESS If you go through all the Vetassess stuff on their website yourself, the chances are that you will decide that you did not need the agent in the first place IF - IF - you are right in thinking that Ian should be assessed for a trade skill. Where we came in at the beginning with you was that you said that Ian used to be a Carpenter, a Joiner or both but that recently he has been working as a Construction Site Manager. Which is a very common situation in practice, but it causes potential complications with migration to Australia following various fundamental changes to the visa process during 2010. In the link above, I have given you the self-assessment forms for both Carpenter and Joiner. Not long ago, we had a situation on here where another Scotsman called Tam was the visa applicant. He was either a Carpenter or he was a a Joiner but he was not both (though some people are.) His first agent got the whole thing wrong and put Tam forward to Vetassess as the wrong occupation. He got through the Vetassess paper-based process despite that but he fell apart on the day of the practical assessment. Either Carpenters use equipment that Joiners never use or it was the other way around but either way, the Aussie assessors soon learned that Tam had never used the relevant equipment. Therefore he was guessing about how to use it, his guesses were wrong and the Vetassess assessors failed him. It was sorted out once it was realised that the agent had told Vetassess the wrong thing, but it was confusion that nobody needed. Therefore I reckon that it is worth asking Ian to have a look at the forms for both of the possible occupations, so that Ian can tell us whether he is a Carpenter, a Joiner or a hybrid of the two. The next step in double checking this bit is below: A-Z Occupations List - Australian Skills Recognition Information Please ask Tam to check: Carpenter Carpenter & joiner Construction Project Manager Joiner What ws he before? What is he now, please? Further help is at hand: 1220.0 - Australian Standard Classification of Occupations (ASCO) Second Edition, 1997 The decriptions in the ASRI List are simplified thumbnails of the detailed, authoritative descriptions of the 4 possible occupations in the ASCO Code. DIAC, Vetassess etc all compare what the person says with what the ASCO Code says in order to work out what the person has actually been doing for a living. So - if Ian says he is a Joiner, the self-assessment document provided by Vetassess is designed to self-test whether or not Ian is a Joiner according to what the ASCO Code says that a Joiner does all day long. It looks laborious and fiddly but it isn't. The six-digit numerical Code Number is used in the ASCO Code and the same number is used for the occupation in ASRI. So just match the code numbers for the 4 occupations and you are there! Notwithstanding this we have been advised for Ian to be assessed as a carpenter, the competency profile/trade evidence form is asking for detailed examples of work that Ian has never undertaken (laying slabs and concreting etc). I am wondering why this would seem suitable for Ian when the detailed documents which I provided do not ever mention concreting/slabbing/landscaping etc Who produced the document which you refer to above, please? Did the agent produce some sort of catch-all document that is aimed at everyone in the construction industry (eg bricklayers, landscapers, carpenters etc) or does your confusion arise from the ASCO Code description plus Vetassess' own documents, please? Cheers Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clan mac Posted April 7, 2010 Author Share Posted April 7, 2010 Hi Gill, Thanks for your information and I think you are right I could probably have undertaken this myself without losing £1200.00. The documents which I completed were the agents own docs so that they could ascertain which trade occupation would be most suitable for assessment for Ian. As you rightly pointed out there is a large of crossover between joiners and carpenters. Carpenters in Australia undertake concreting and building scaffolds which just does not happen here. I am feeling that if we return this paperwork stating that Ian does not undertake this landscaping work then it is a fait accompli that he will fail! ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHH What I am red hot angry about is that the previous set of documents seem to have been a complete waste of time and energy and we are £1200.00 poorer! I will email the agent and sternly request them to justify exactly what they are doing to earn their fee. Our backstory is that Ian was a project manager without a degree but with a trade background and his entire working life spent in the construction industry. Ian was made redundant last April and returned to working as a self employed joiner between April and October 2009. He managed to secure a site manager position and has been working in that role since October 2009. Ian is the main visa applicant and we also require state sponsorship. Ian is 42, I am 45 and we have 2 children aged 14 and 11. Having Ian's trade assessed is the best way for us to get to Australia, and we engaged an agent that we thought would assist us to do this. I am not suggesting that the agent is not assisting us, they are always prompt and courteous when replying to emails etc but this whole paperwork thing and asking for documents that we cannot produce has really unsettled me. The agent has asked for - 2 certified copies of an accountants letter, we do not and will not have this as Ian will complete self assessment paperwork via the inland revenue site. We have been asked for 2 certified copies of 3 different client statements & suppliers statements to support Ian's self employment. NONE of these documents bear any relevance to us, Ian worked as a joiner and did what he was told to by the site agent in charge. The documents I provided mention the tasks undertaken by Ian and at no point did I mention liaising with clients/suppliers etc. It seems as though we have been sent the generic request for information without any heed having been paid to what Ian has actually done! I really do not want to think the worst but I feel duped. I know that the agent (or rather the person with whom I am dealing) is on holiday until Thursday so I will definately email them asking for them to contact me urgently! I cannot thank you enough for your help grateful and sincere thanks Lorraine x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veronica Posted April 7, 2010 Share Posted April 7, 2010 Hi Lorraine, Sorry to hear you are not getting much help from your agent. My husband applied to vetasses 11/03/10 and fortunately we had a positive result yesterday.The paperwork does seem very daunting and at one point he was just going to give up because he couldn't be bothered with the hassle, needless to say I filled it out and got all the relevant documents certified, It took about a month to get it all together.He is a contracts manager but we were advised that he applied as a carpenter so he found it quite difficult to answer the questions as well,but we gave them as much information as we could. We considered using an agent but felt it was so expensive and at worst we would pay the $600 again to reapply if the paperwork was incorrect. Looking at the main visa application the vetasses form seems the hard work so we will hopefully do that ourselves and if we feel we are unsure the migrations experts said they would charge us £800 to check it all. If your agent has not really done anything yet can you cancel and ask them for your money back? If you need any assistance my husband said you can give him a call he would be happy to help,i can email you his number just let me know .good luck Veronica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clan mac Posted April 8, 2010 Author Share Posted April 8, 2010 Hi Veronica, grateful thanks for your offer of help, like your husband Ian is also a construction manager but needs to be assessed as a carpenter. If you could pm me your details I would be extremely grateful because I think it would help if Ian could speak with someone who's in the same boat! I notice that also like me you are the one sorting out the paperwork! I think I'll probably be able to work in the construction industry when this whole ordeal is over, because I'll be so familiar with the terminology! I didn't sleep at all the other night, I was boiling mad in my bed. I'm surprised we didn't spontaneously combust. Thanks again for your offer I'll be in touch soon Lorraine x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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