2tigers

Good video Rachel Tilley, it does make people stop and think. You have put so much hard work into this, that I hope it makes people stop and think. Ask those 'what if' questions, make an informed decision, don't let yourself be another person stuck. Hoping one day the HC will be updated

Sorry had to remove the FB link which we don't allow. People can pm you for the info if they're interested.

Thats OK Ali, Expat stuck mums is easy for people to find and anyone is welcome to message me if they have difficulties finding the group. But I don't log on here often, is there anyone on here who I could send the link to and if anyone can't find the FB group, they could message that person for it?

The Hague Convention is gaining a lot of attention right now in the UK with one TV company interested in making a documentary. Also the UK TV program about relocating to AU has also shown interest. If you would like to find out more, there is a Facebook group. Its not just for Mums, its also for Dads.

Parleycross, some people do as I am sure you are aware. Or is this sarcasm? I am confused as to why you are asking this? Prenup is mainly financial - children do not have a price tag. Unless you have been in this situation, it must be rather difficult for you to understand.

Do not put your head in the sand and pretend non of this would happen to you. Ignorance can cause immense problems. This is such an issue, MAJORITY of people relocating take more time researching a new car and shopping around for the best insurance deals than they do about their own 'insurances' for If something goes wrong.

Hello Quoll and Tina2, its been a while...... nice to read you are both here and helping others to see life from different perspectives.

cshowell, as both above have very well said - each case is different, it would be completely wrong to assume all of the cases are where a parent misses home and just decides to up sticks and move back to where they came from. Without knowing the fine details of each persons case, your assumptions can be damaging. Each case is complicated, with mental, physical, financial and emotional abuse being aspects that are as damaging as each other. If a parent was going through any or all of these situations, the effect on the child can be even more damaging. A lot of the people who have contributed to this thread have been there in the above situations and some are still there, please have some empathy for those that you have just assumed put only themselves first.

I am the initial author of this thread, my aim to was make people aware that they cannot just move back home with the children if their relationship breaks down, that they need to sit down and think about all the possible outcomes, and agree as best as they can, before moving to the other side of the world. Although we cannot predict how we would react in such a situation, it would help greatly to discuss and find out the other persons thoughts before agreeing to move the children. Its a step forward in looking out of the box, to be realistic and not assume that the new life will be a rose garden, the stresses and pressure put on families when they move is tremendous and a lot of people split up due to the pressure.

As it is, I know from experience that a lot of people, without realising, put more thought into researching a new home than they do thinking about what if we split up, what would happen to the children? I can guarantee you now, most people who read this have not had the discussion with their partner, their love of their life - what would happen to our children if we split up? It is difficult to predict what you would do, but sensible to discuss it. When in a relationship it is naturally optimistic of us to think about a happy future, not the dowdy negative aspects. When moving, most people do not envision that their lives could be completely torn apart if their relationship fails. Not just themselves, but their children too. This is when it gets very very complicated. This is why this thread urges those who are looking to move abroad with children, or have children when there, to discuss the 'what if's'.....

Tina - thats daunting, I found in the UK I am also better off financially (& academically) whilst studying full-time at Uni, rather than part-time study. Its a strange set up!

M2M - thats great thank you

Thanks Tina, looks like Aus is tightening its purse strings.... with little regard for those in the grey

Just a suggestion - maybe in the 'Moving back to the UK' thread may help people more? It would probably get missed here and it really could save a lot of people a lot of money and heartache if they are aware of the laws with moving back home with children?

Mods: I have just noticed this sticky has moved to the folder 'Feedback and Announcements'..... correct me if I am wrong, but I can't see how it falls within that category?

I guess like many people here I have stumbled across this page and too have found myself extremely frightened reading the post. I am an UK citizen with a one year old daughter and whose father is Australian. We have had a very difficult time. After being together for a year and then travelling for 12 months we both returned to Scotland to save for 12-18 months for another trip however my partner did not settle well in Scotland which created tensions in our relationship.

After a year I was extremely shocked to discover I was pregnant and he did not react well at all to the news and could not accept being a father and the responsibilities involved and left and returned to Oz. I was five months pregnant at the time. Very slowly he has began to accept everything and has recently returned to UK (His parents are Italian so he has dual european and australian passport). He has been here four weeks and had made a huge effort and wants to try again and be a family however because of previous difficulties in the UK he has asked me to return to Australia with our daughter and make a fresh start.

In my head I was thinking we could try for a year however now that I found out the reality of the situation it has given me so much to think about. I love him very much however having brought my daughter up on my own for a year, I could not bear to even think about losing her. It makes me very nervous even thinking about the decisions I have to make.

If you feel your relationship is rocky to begin with, moving to the other side of the world will probably not fix it. In reality, yes you could go over there and decide your relationship isn't what you hoped for, but then you wouldn't be able to just come home. He would have to agree. Good luck in whatever you decide, its a toughie for sure.

Okay so we are due to move in a month with two small kids and this thread is frightening the life out of me. Is there even any point in contacting a solicitor if when in Australia any agreement made is useless? Anyone made an agreement and when the time comes it stands up in court?

If you have any doubts about your relationship before you go, maybe you should reassess your move...... talking things through and coming to an agreement before a move is ideal, at least you are being realistic which most people don't do.

Seek legal advice, getting an agreement drawn up before your move can only help your situation. This would obviously change over time too, as the children settle it would be more difficult to move back home regardless of what you agree on. If you did end up in court, an agreement would not override the law, but it would be very strong evidence to show both of your intentions before the split. When adults do split it can turn very very nasty and then selfishness on both parts (both parents thinking of their own happiness) can raise its head, the children sometimes turn into pawns. At least an agreement is done when both are being realistic and without emotion. Saying that, at the end of the day, courts shout about making an agreement on what is best for the children, this is debatable, but once in court - they make the decisions. Not you. Your future is taken out of your hands.

I have a brother in Oz who was married to a kiwi, they had one son and 4 years later had a break down within the marriage, she moved where she wanted within the state and he had to follow if he wanted to see his son, and finally had my brother taken through the courts left right and centre and she still would not abide by the courts. She would more often than not deny him access which had been granted by the courts.

 

She then asked for permission to take the boy to NZ for a HOLIDAY and she has not returned him to Oz and there is nothing my brother can do but wait until his son is over 12.

 

The latest is that when she moved his child support payments were deemed not payable and now because she has had a relationship break up, she has applied to the NZ courts for CS and it appears she will get it, my brother has attempted to complete on suicide at least once, feels that no matter what he does he has to pay the price while she gets off scot free and no one mentioned the HC to him or that she could go to prison for taking his son out of the country.

 

So it is not always the men who have their way and the courts do not stick to the 50% scenerio

Unfortunately not all Lawyers in AU or the UK and probably all the other countries in the world, are versed on the HC. I was given very wrong advice in AU and fortunately for me that Lawyer was subpoenaed in court and openly admitted he had no idea what it was. And he was a family lawyer. Your brother is best going to a main Legal Aid office, they are in fact the best centre of knowledge that I found, when I asked why other Lawyers were not well versed, it was a case of the Legal Aid system is because of the volume of cases they deal with and their continuous progression with the laws. Some back street, and even main street lawyer may charge through the roof, but may only come into contact with a HC case once in a lifetime, if they are lucky.

WOW just seen that over 47,100 people have read this thread. If I have helped just one person/family then I am happy. I would not wish the HC on anyone, looking back it was the most challenging time of my life and has changed all of our futures considerably.

Please do not ignore the fact that many people do split up, we spend a fortune and lots of time organising the move - but pay little regard to what will happen to the children if things do go pear shaped. What happens to them can change their lives forever. Thats a big burden to carry, so make sure you act wisely.

If I could do anything now - it would be to insist that people are made aware of this in their immigration package. But unfortunately, only rose tinted glasses are in those aren't they..... not the real daily facts that life throws. Would we listen anyway? Or just assume it wouldn't happen to us? At least it would be there instead of just not having a clue.

Here is a copy of the Hague Convention - http://www.haguedv.org/articles/Washington%20State%20Bench%20Guide%20dvAndTheHagueConvention.pdf

And here is a snippet regarding removal with consent, difficult to make sense of the jargon, but gives food for thought.....

There are five reasons (see link above) as to why the courts would not return the child through the HC, below is #1, the other four given reason to: Child attains age of Maturity, Passage of One year/child settled, petitioner not exercising custodial rights and grave risk.

For anyone reading this - I am not legally trained, just been there and have the t-shirt. Now try to sit on the fence & have empathy for all parties. No-one wins, just the children lose.

1. Petitioner Consent or Acquiescence

The judicial authority of the requested State is not bound to order the return of the child if the person, institution or other body having the care of the person of the child had consented to or subsequently acquiesced in the removal or retention.

ICARA requires the respondent to demonstrate, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the petitioner consented to or subsequently acquiesced in the removal or retention.

Some courts, including one in the Ninth Circuit, distinguish between consent prior to removal and subsequent acquiescence, either of which may extinguish the right of return.

To establish acquiescence or consent, courts have required acts or statements with requisite formality, such as testimony in a judicial proceeding, a convincing written renunciation or rights, or a consistent attitude over a significant period of time.

The absence of any meaningful effort to obtain return of the child has been found by some courts to be sufficient to establish the exception.

A petitioner’s repeated actions to locate the child, however, are inconsistent with any claim of acquiescence.

A respondent’s act of concealing removal is inconsistent with any claim of consent.

Additionally, any allegation of prior consent is undermined by filing a petition pursuant to the Convention.

A petitioner’s failure to exercise obligations under a custody agreement does not constitute consent where the agreement giving custody was rescinded before removal and the petitioner’s subsequent action fails to show consent to removal.

Hi - is this still true if you're not married??

If the person you are with is the parent, then yes..... both parents have rights.

They've been together for 13yrs, so she would get PR straight away.

Even though they are not married? I was married and had to wait 2yrs...... also, the OP hasn't mentioned what her OH's status is? I think we are assuming he is Aussie, but I don't see anywhere that she has said this?

Agreed - to some extent. If you're on a temp spouse visa, there shouldn't be a primary carer - as you should both be living together as a couple. If the relationship breaks down and the mother moves out, that shouldn't mean that she gets deported either.

I have just sent you a PM - I prefer to keep some personal details off the main thread

If you're in Australia on a temp spouse visa and the relationship breaks down, immigration will not cancel the visa and deport the partner if it means splitting a mother from her kids..

Thats right, but you need a court order to state your the main carer, they wont just give you a permanent visa.

From what I read in your post, your partner is an Australian citizen and your kids are there for Australian's by descent of their father?

 

If so, once you arrive in Australia (and because of your children you would be given a permanent visa that allows you to stay indefinitely) you would not be allowed to take them back to the UK without your partner's permission.

 

If your partner is not Australian and you're all just going over on a PR visa, the Hague convention would still apply and your visa could not be revoked.

 

The only time i think it doesn't apply is if you are on a temporary 457 visa.

 

I've read between the lines a bit, so apologies if I guessed your situation wrong.

I don't think it quite works like that? I do believe In that scenario she would still be on a temp spouse visa for 2yrs. If they split up she would have to inform Immigration who would giver her 3 scenarios to enable her to stay and continue for her permanent visa - (1) if the father is proven to be abusive (2) if the father has died (3) if she has a court order to say she is the main carer. And until her visa is permanent then she still can't claim any support from centerlink...... how do I know? It happened to me.

I have been reading this thread and it's making me feel really worried. I have full parental rights of my 2 kids as they were born before the Family Act Scotland came into force in 2006 and I am not married to their dad. I do not actually agree with the fairness of this as we have lived together for the last 13 years and made the decision to have children together, however I know that as things stand at the moment I basically could make decision about where we live etc.

 

When we go to Australia will the Hague Convention mean that I no longer have full parental responsibility? If my partner and I split and I we are there as dependants could my visa be revoked or would I be allowed to stay as long as I could support my kids?

Gee thats a complicated situation. I am not legally trained and can only state what I know due to what I have been through..... my instincts would say that as you are both the parents then the HC would apply and you would need the fathers permission to leave. As for your visa, it all depends on what visa you arrive on.......

Legal advice, thats what I would take if I was you, but unfortunately not all legal teams in the UK and AU are fully versed on the HC, so your best route to find the most knowledgeable solicitors on the HC would be to contact 'Reunite' in the UK, just google them and they will point you in the right direction. They have a list of solicitors all over the UK who specialise in the HC and can advise you.

Before you move, why don't you express your concerns to your partner and ask that if it doesnt work out, that he would allow you all to go home?

Yes I guess its intended to stop those women who would not come back again despite saying they were only going for a holiday.

Presumably that was happening and why they introduced the law.

No, in fact its quite different. When I have more time later I will try to find the history or something more factual based, or maybe someone reading this who is interested could?

My Lawyer told me the history but I would prefer some facts to back it up before I posted it really. Basically, from what I recall - its only over recent years where international relationships are more common; where the mother is known to relocate to the fathers country to bring the child up rather than the father relocate to the mothers land, that this type of 'abduction' is common. Many many years ago, (I was told) it was brought about to prevent men abducting a child abroad from the mother, never to be seen again. Not the other way around. As we know in history, its always been the mother who has had full parental responsibility, a child would always stay with the mother. As time has moved on, fathers have more rights and the HC, regardless of how old the law is, caters for this.

It's even more restrictive than that - you may not be able to leave the jurisdiction so, as in the case of some women who have been on here, they have been unable to leave the small town they live in (often with the spouse's family and friendship network) because of the spouse's connection to the child. That really is a prison sentence if you arent able to move beyond the town limits and find a life somewhere else in the state even.

This is all so true, I am so fortunate I was able to relocate back home........

Thanks 2Tigers, it is something I am very worried about as children mean everything to you. Im glad things have worked out for you as it must have been such an awful ordeal for you.

 

I have spoken to a family law solicitor and he has looked into it but just thinks that with relation to the Hague convention the only wording you can put is to state that it is the wishes of both parents to have any future legal proceedings with relation to the children to be dealt with in a UK court. That you cant really state that one parent can leave with children...as this is against the Hague convention. And even this may not stand in an Australian jurisdiction. I wish I knew what people had drawn up to protect them completely against it ever going to court...to simply have the freedom to do so. On the other hand I do understand the reason for the Hague convention.:chatterbox:

Your very welcome, there are many people on this site that will assist whenever they can.

Just a little note, the Hague Convention and International Relocation are two separate cases in a court. The HC only ever comes into play if a parent takes the children out of the country they are residing in without the other parents permission. There are LOTS of family law solicitors that are not well versed at all in the HC, thats both in the UK and Australia, its quite scary some of the advice that I was given initially, and when that solicitor was called into court the judge asked him if he understood the HC and scarily his reaction was 'yeah, kind of'....... if you wanted to get in touch with a solicitor who specialises in relocation and the HC then the best base for you is to look at this website -

http://www.reunite.org/

Reunite were my saviour, they are a free organisation with a wealth of experience with relocations and the HC, they will be able to give you a list of solicitors in the UK, as most give the first 30-60 mins free, this would hopefully be enough time to direct you the right way.

Good luck, I hope you never need to reflect back on this thread though.

I have read this thread many time over the last 9 months. And am very concerned about it all. The situation is, Me and Partner are moving to QLD with our 2 daughters in Nov 2011 on a temp visa with his job.

 

Basically in the current situation we are happy and looking forward to our new life in Oz together as a family. But are realistic and know something may happen down the line...we may (hopefully not) split up for whatever reason. We are wanting to know what we can actually have drawn up...as this thread is pre-warning people, but we are wondering what we can actually do to be prepared. OH has stated that he knows he would want the children to stay with me in whichever country I chose to reside in...the choice being mine. But also agrees if down the line things got heated he may not see this so clearly...if and when etc, so would also want something drawing up to support me in whatever I choose to do, this being in the best interests of the children and also so I feel secure in the move. Hope this makes sense. So basically wondering, what people have had drawn up by a solicitor here in the Uk in relation to the Hague Convention and Child Abduction.

Hi there,

I am glad the post is making people aware, you are being very wise in discussing the 'what if' with your partner. If I was you, to put your mind at rest, I would make an appointment with a solicitor who specialises in family law. Ask for it to be put in writing that he gives you permission to return to the UK with the children, and any future children to permanently relocate if you so wish (or however you wanted it wording). I have never done this, and I am not legally trained, but I do know that if you were both already in Australia and he put it in writing that you could leave with the children permanently, that this is seen as giving his permission. So for him to write it before you leave one would say it makes sense for the courts to take that into consideration. BUT I am not legally trained, I am just one who has been through this and it was the worst time of my life, I am one of the few who was able to return home.