2tigers

Sorry to read your friends in this situation. The only thing that I can see where things look good in her favour is the age of the children. Once a child reaches a certain age (approx 12 I think, but no quotes) the courts listen to their choices.

If she is looking at a reconciliation, it may be worth her while to request that they all move to the UK as a family, to help the situation if they ever split again and to provide her with a support network if the abuse continues..... once the parents make a conscious decision to move back to the UK then the children become residents of the UK same as when they went to the AU, and the HC would stop them leaving the UK. Does that make sense?

Her other option would be to seek legal advice and get the ball rolling asap for an international relocation. This can cost up to and over $100,000 to fund. Can take over 2yrs of draining court cases where all past and present is dragged through the courts. Leaving AU is not simple, and even in cases where there is abuse toward the other parent the courts don't always stop contact with the children. If this was the case her chances of returning may be slim as the courts are very active in promoting relationships between father and child, regardless of his abuse to the mother or his contributions financially. BUT saying that, the age of the children do go in her favour, the older they are the more chances of their wishes being heard in court.

Best of luck to her

I get the Hauge Convention thing, but what happens if say my partner leaves me? I'm on his 457 visa and without him I have no right to stay, what then happens with my children? Do I get deported with my other child? As only two are legally his. I am scared and confused, I haven't even been here a year yet, I wanted a contract before we came but everyone said I was being paranoid and he said .. well a lot of stuff and I believed him.

 

I'd like to stay as the children are settling in but have no idea of my rights, and I am currently fully reliant on him financially as we came for his work and decided I would not work until the children settled in. Please someone give me some advice or point me in the direction of someone who can assist.

Hi there readybrek, I am sorry to read your having a dilemma after only being in the country a short time. Unfortunately I know of a situation (court case) the same as yours and the outcome was not good. I urge you to get legal advice, make an appointment with legal aid preferably in the city where there are more staff, quicker for an appointment and a bigger chance of finding a lawyer who is clued up with the HC and immigration.

The couple split up within a few months of arriving, the family (dad, mum and son) were in AU due to his visa linked to his job. The Dad met someone else within months of arriving and moved out of the rental, the mum got on a plane with her son and brought their son home. HC began and she had to return her son to AU. A two year court case began, she wanted to bring her son back to the UK, but the law stated that she had broken the HC and although she could not legally stay there, the son could still legally stay there with the father, and so she had to apply for an international relocation order. Within the two years of her and her son being there she wasn't allowed to work or claim any benefits, she lived off hand outs and church goodwill. She had to sell the family home in the UK to fund the case.

Now the twist - within the two years of the court case, not only had her son now began school and settled, but she had met someone and changed her mind about wanting to come home to the UK. The courts wouldn't allow it, and after spending over £100,000 on legal fees and then uprooting her son from his father, new life and her from her new partner - she was told she had 28 days to leave the country, with the child. So she came home and is now rebuilding her life again here in the UK.

It is so complicated its unreal, I was also sent back to AU for over 2 years whilst the courts made decisions, I was unable to work or claim any benefits, I suffered terribly and my absolute heart goes to anyone who goes through this.

I hang around on this website to give what little advice I can about this topic, I wish I could help you but it really is legal advice you need.

Hi 2tigers

Which way around do you have them? Maybe Oz court orders are able to be registered in the UK (dont know) but when I tried to obtain mirror orders in Australia of my UK order I was told it could not be done.

 

I'll message you so not to paste all my life on here LOL

 

What she is after is some protection, should things go horribly wrong. Obviously I would hope that if she is unhappy and wants to move back to the UK, then I would follow her and there'd be no problem, but there is always a chance that I get a great job, love the lifestyle etc and don't want to move back.

 

Essentially I would like the agreement to be "they are entitled to retun with their mother, after a minimum period of two years, unless the prospective life in Oz is much better for them" - now obviously this last bit is very vague, but essentially what I mean is this:

 

If I am in a good job in Oz, with a lovely house, and my son has friends and a good school, and loves surfing etc, then I wouldn't want to take all that away from him to be stuck in a council house in London somewhere.

 

Hi Neil, sorry I should have made myself easier to understand. From what I can read above, it sounds to me that if your enjoying your life there, have what you consider a good job and what you would constitute a good life etc, that you wouldn't let her take the children home? The problem I see here is, that yes if your enjoying your life there you would see AU as a better life for the children. But your wife may think totally opposite, this is where the problem lies for a lot of people, we all have different thoughts. A lot of women who have been caught up in this have ended up depressed and felt like a prisoner due to the father not allowing the children to return.

If your wife doesn't feel confident that you would allow her and the children to return if she didn't like it, then she will feel anxious, its such a huge decision to make. What I have found out that money and material objects mean nothing if your not happy, happiness in yourself means the world.

Feel free to PM me if you like, If there is anything I can do to help please ask

Hi again

 

What I found out, is that court orders made in the UK are NOT enforceable in Australia. So if the court orders are not enforceable its quite possible that nothing else will be. Send me a PM if you would like more information - I tried to register a UK court order but Oz is not a reciprocal jurisdiction so it wouldnt accept it. Dont really want to get into any more personal stuff on the forum but happy to help if you PM me. But basically I dont think you will get anything drawn up in the UK which will be valid here after 3 months from your arrival date - then you are out of the jurisdiction and it is no longer valid nor is the UK jurisdiction interested!

But for your wife, this is the best place in space, dont doubt it til you have tried it. Get an agreement and get here and THEN register it with the family courts within three months if you are in any doubt at all, they are not interested until your children are here. However, , this is far the better life for your children without a shadow of a doubt. IMHO!!

Hope that might be a little bit helpful, I would not have gone through what I went through if I was not sure, and having arrived I am more certain than I was before that I have done the right thing for the kids and at the end of the day they are what matters more than anything.

There is a way around this, its called 'Mirror Orders' where one country makes an order and you can get it made in the next country in their court, so it stands in both countries. i have them.

Also, you may find that for some people they don't feel AU is the best place to bring children up, I actually feel my children have a better life in the UK. It really is all a personal choice.

I personally would see red flags if I was asked to sign something similar to what your proposing Neil, your wife may need a clear answer before she decides to go and she would be wise to demand that answer too - you either agree she goes home with the children if she is not happy, before she agrees to emigrate, or not. No conditions on regards to material issues, and I doubt your son will be surfing and have a close network of mates for many years to come, he is at an age where he can adapt anywhere tbh. I know its difficult to think of the what if's, but looking at your life in the UK where you are all stable right now, compared to a life in AU where it may become unstable, it may come down to selfish reasons for either country, but always look back to where you came from (UK) and how happy ALL of you are right now. A dream is a dream but it may not work out for all of you, so empathy might be needed somewhere along the line for those not happy.

Saying that, I think you and your Mrs are being wise in exploring all avenues here. Good luck, I do hope it works out for all of you.

Jeepers veryhopeful, what a journey! I admire your strength and I hope that your life there continues to be happy for you all.

I hope you do not have to go through any kind of court in AU, its a very different system, over in AU the father has 50% custodial rights, so a lot of split families only have their children 50% of the time, unlike in the UK where most fathers would have their children at the weekends or every other. One tip for you, if you ever feel the need for help (contact arrangements) try to stay away from the courts and try to make arrangements through mediation first.

All the very best of luck, enjoy your new life

After all these years I have never looked at it like that Quoll -

It always seems to be "fair" on the kids to take them away from their UK lives (home, family, friends, school, activities) just because it doesnt suit the parents itch for adventure so I guess the same could be said for taking them from Aus because one parent's mental health may be suffering.

Thank you

So pleased someone read this before they moved. The thing I found was that as a single parent you just want family and friends around for support. Its very difficult being alone on the other side of the world with no-one.

Good luck and I hope you never have to make this decision

It is brilliant that you have brought this to everyones attention!

 

I am thinking of having a baby in Aus with my Australian partner, do you know, can you have a legal document written before the child is born (if both parties can agree) that if anything happens to the marriage who the child will stay with?

 

Its so sad to think that this tears families apart

Its awful isn't it, having to think to the future in such a cautious way, but its life, so many people split up and turn into someone they don't even recognise themselves. Empathy kinda goes out of the window in lots of cases, children are torn and both parents lives are put through turmoil. Its not a case of just moving to another state, its an international relationship.

If I was you I would speak to your partner about this thread and get his opinion, then seek legal advice to see what can be put in place. Good luck.

What would also be taken into consideration in a case like this, if it ever went to court for a relocation back to the UK, is a Mothers case against a Fathers in court.

In confussedd's case, the mother would obviously have a good paper trail of evidence which shows the Father deliberately trying to get the child into AU, knowing they are not together anymore. It may be seen as deceitful. He would get the H.C part of the case paid for if she did abduct, but would have to pay out $$$ for the relocation case. It could cost a LOT of $$$ to go through the court case, and if the courts knew how this whole process had been performed, then he may also lose his child back to the UK and be left with a lot of debt.

In my personal experience, relocation cases in AU are treated as thoroughly as any high profile case, no stone left unturned. Our trial lasted 10 days and cost me & my ex a lot of money, I am not talking 10's of thousands either.

Please do not put yourself in this situation.

If the parent and child are on a tourist visa then they are able to come and go as they please. It is when BOTH parents make a conscious decision to relocate this is when the HC comes into play. Even if both parents and child were born and have lived most of their lives in the UK, once they as a family relocate, even on temporary visa's, you cannot just jump on a plane with your child, you need the other parents permission. Regardless. If you do-not get permission the HC can come into place and the child would be sent back.

Confusedd - I very much doubt your ex would be eligible to come into AU on a partner visa as you are no longer a couple. One of you should inform immigration of your change in circumstances. She would need to apply under a different visa category if she was to move to AU now. I am very sorry for your circumstances, if I was you I would seek legal advice to see if you can get regular contact organised. Sooner you do this the better as days move into months into years so easily. I wish you luck.

A long thread and a very contributed one. I can see that almost all cases are due to the male partner arguing that they need to see their child but turns out that they just want both child and ex to be stuck.

 

Mine situation is the opposite and I hope someone can shed some lights. I recently sponsored my partner and our daughter over on spousal visa. The visa just got granted and she wants to split with me (they have not arrive yet). Now they got the visa but she's cutting off contact with me so I do not know if she will be coming over and even if she does I wouldn't know when. I didn't know she would act like this and if she wants to split then fine, but I would like to be able to see our daughter.

 

I don't know what to do. I guess I cannot invoke the law since they have not entered Australia yet. She is so immature and wants to own our daughter... Please help.

I am sorry to read your situation, your right in saying you cannot invoke this law, this law is for a very different reason.

I am sat here thinking that It may be easier if you looked at it from her situation (Putting aside the thoughts she is trying to keep your daughter away from you), if she has had second thoughts (which it sounds like she obviously has) then she may not want to move to the other side of the world, not many people would in that situation. She more than likely has her support network where she is, and has made the decision that for her to be happy and healthy that is where she needs to be. If she moved to the other side of the world for a man she does not want to be with, what quality of life would that be for her. This would reflect on your child too.

Is it not possible that you could move over to the UK to be closer to your child? I am assuming at some stage you may have lived there before?

Sorry if this is not what you wanted to read, but international relationships can at times be heartbreaking when it comes to situations like this. The decision may well come down to you, where do you want to live? In AU without your child or UK with her.

My ex is an Aussie and he wishes to stay there, he is easily able to financially live and work in the UK if he wished to be a bigger part of his childs life, but his priority is in AU with his family and his support network (goes both ways hey). We work around this with visits, webcams and telephone. Its not the perfect situation but its the best we can do as neither of us wants to live in each others countries. All is not lost, if you wished to stay in AU there are ways for you to still be part of your childs life. If you are not getting any joy you could seek legal help and I am sure a judge would secure your involvement if needed.

Best of luck to you

What happens if the female partner decides to move back to the UK during pregnancy? Leaving the male partner in Australia? Is this covered under the Hague convention? Or is this tough cookies?

 

I worry as my partner threatens it all the time, saying she needs her mum around when she has kids - I have no intention of returning as I am an Aussie citizen, and as such all my family are over here.

The Hague convention does not come into force on an unborn child.

If she gives birth in the UK and stays there, as far as I am aware, there isn't much you can do. She is within her rights and wouldn't be breaking any law. It is when the child is born that it complicates matters.

I think that is a great way to handle it with grace and without badmouthing, I will try to use that method myself, thank you.

So right, its a long journey but worth it! My ex is terrible with this, he see's it as I 'Stole his children' but the facts are in writing with court. So he calls me at any opportunity and really messes with the children's minds. If He was a good father and husband I would still be there, the Judge saw that too. That little bit of evidence is enough to know It was right for the children and they will also see this when they get older.

Some people act out of bitterness, unfortunately that reaction has long term affects.

Must also add, in Australia, if you split up and are happy (or not for a lot of cases) to stay in Australia, you can not even move state without the Fathers consent. You have to stay close to the Father so he can have access to his children if he wants to. BUT HE can move state or country if he wants to, you don't have a leg to stand on if you want him to stay in your child's life. Its all backwards, this law needs revisiting and updating!

The bottom line is this, if you are thinking of going to live in AU or you live there now, and have children or want children, just speak to each other about this law and come to an agreement of what would happen if you split up. Get it in writing with a Lawyer. Protect your future and your child's just as you do when you write a will. Relationships can get so bitter when they crumble.

I think this would make such a good story for one or other of the UK magazines or better newspapers. If they wrote about this situation existing, would you be willing to talk with a writer?

I'd definitely consider giving my story but not our names.

It really should be exposed more, its as though they don't want people to know about what could happen, only the good is advertised.

This thread pulls me back again and again, I hate reading about people in this situation, yet feel I need to give my experience on here in case it helps someone.

For me, when I was asked if I would stay in the country with my children, I was that depressed my reaction was being afraid I would hurt myself. I was that depressed I often had suicidal thoughts. The Psychiatrist who took our case reported that my thoughts were to be taken seriously. I truly believe that if I had not been able to come home I would have lost my children completely, I would either not be here at all, or I would be in a ward to protect myself. That is such a scary thought, but the situation I was in was out of control.

I've been home over a year now, I am such a different person. I'm stronger and in a position where depression was a distant memory.

I feel so deeply for those stuck in Australia against their will, keep strong. I hope that one day Immigration will pop in a little leaflet explaining what would happen if it didn't work out. Thats all it would take to make people aware, some kind of check list, encouraging people to discuss things before the move.

As of 1 March 2006, the Convention is in force for the following States:

 

Australia, The Czech Republic, Ecuador, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Monaco, Morocco, Slovakia and Slovenia.

 

It has been signed by all other EU States (except Malta) and Switzerland.

 

Hungary ratified the Convention on 13 January 2006 (entry into force 1 May 2006);

 

Bulgaria acceded to the Convention on 8 March 2006 (entry into force: 1 February 2007).

 

The United States signed the Convention on 22 October 2010.

 

Hague Convention 1996 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's actually about 78 signatories. Not many countries left in the world now that don't enforce the HC.

Also, just been discussing with someone so thought I should elaborate on here - anyone looking to get any kind of 'Order' from a court, note that if the wording 'Undertakings' is used instead of 'Order' this is not as enforceable as an actual 'Order'. The term 'Undertakings' is actually just the other person saying they 'Promise' to do something. If they break it, there isn't really much legally you can do. It would be noted in court and wouldn't look too favourably on the other person if they did break their 'Promise', but the outcome wouldn't be as strong as if the wording was 'Order'. If the wording is 'Ordered by consent' this is still and 'Order' but just the other person has agreed to it, instead of a Judge making the decision. Hope I've not confused anyone!

Hi sazzle76,

I am not legally trained by all means, but from my experience, legal documents drawn up in either country are considered in the other country. I would definitely make sure its agreed in writing what will happen to the children in any event. And I would make sure its done in the UK before you leave.

AU is a different ball game than UK when it comes to children and parents. The ball is definitely in the fathers court in AU, so many times I have read and spoken to people who can not leave AU because the father will not allow it. Even though a lot of cases, he doesn't spend time with the children and has done all he can to avoid paying for them. Unfortunately in AU things like that the courts aren't interested in, it doesn't matter if the father cant find time to see the children or pay for them, the courts only want to make sure the access is there if he wants it. Its very very backwards.

Another gripe of mine is this - why is it a father can move away from his children and not have to get permission? It should go both ways.....

I wish there was a clause with Immigration, which allowed the parent to return home with the children within a certain period of time if they did not settle. Unfortunately even if you decide to go home the very next day after you've landed, the HC can be brought in and your children will be ordered to return. Reason being is that both parents have made a conscious decision to immigrate then the child automatically becomes resident overnight. Its a prison sentence to so many Mums.

There is hope. I won my court case and I am now home..... I know I am one of the minority and I know I am one hell of a lucky lady. But the mess I was in, if I was made to stay I honestly don't believe I would be alive right now. What a hell of a journey.

Good luck to those who are fighting to get home xxx

As a result of reading this thread I am having a clause put in my agreement that we can return home to the UK unopposed if required - thats if the kids dad does come to Australia after we have gone there so thank goodness I read this before we arrived - I would never have realised but now I do I am covering my own backside!! Yay!

Your welcome, I'm pleased I've helped one family see the implications of this law

All the best to you xxx

Just read this thread, and my immediate reaction was that a copy of the information should probably be stickied in the migration issues forum. Many of the people who are just looking for help with visas don't necessarily read the other section of the phorum, and they are the people who really need to be made aware of the implications of the Hague Convention.

Yes I agree, Mods - as well as being a sticky on 'Chat' forum, please can this be a sticky on the 'Migration Issues' forum?

Yep, this is correct what pommyoz says. Even if both are on temp visas you will still be breaking the HC and will be dragged back, and have to apply to court which costs a fortune and a long time. By which the other parent will probably have their permanent visa by then anyway. The HC is not about the parents and their situation, its about removing the child without permission from the other parent. The left behind parent will also be funded his/her legal fees until the child is returned. Then from there on the parent who wants to leave has to apply to court for a leave to remove case, which takes minimum 18 months. Its a 2 part court case.

I know of a couple this happened to. Both born in the UK, son born in the UK. Arrived in AU and within 6 months split up. Her visa was linked to his, so because they had split up she wasnt allowed to work or claim anything. She jumped plane with their son and was dragged back through the HC. 2yrs later she eventually won her case, but within those 2yrs she had to sell the family home back in the UK to fund her case and herself and her son. She lived off handouts from the local church and moved from home to home throughout the 2yrs. Within those 2yrs she fell in love and her son settled in school, then when she won her case was told to leave within 28 days. Her sons and her life was so torn and mixed up.

Its horrid, would not wish it upon my worst enemy.... the stress, I put on 3st 13lb in 2yrs and suffered depression which almost took my life with suicidal thoughts, there is nothing worse than not knowing if you can go home or not, its a prison sentence.

If your reading this, please think of your children before you go, or even if you give birth there. Discuss this with your partner.

Quoll, they wouldn't even both need PR for this to happen. When the parents decide on the move, and make the move, a child becomes resident overnight.