whopperdaisy

There was a high profile story here in QLD of someone who returned here from Italy with her kids and the children were forcibly put on a plane to Italy (teenage children literally kicking and screaming to try and stay with their mum). If you stayed on holiday, and your ex made a complaint to police, the children would be repatriated from any country signatory to the Hague Convention. If you returned you would almost certainly face charges if the other parent pursued it. You also have to get permission for the holiday in the first place form the other parent, or else apply for permission through the courts if that is not forthcoming.

Yep, my TAFE couse is being finished so my study will not lead to the planned qualification. I'm still trying to figure out what comes next. A lot of contact orders now do not allow for full time 9-5 type work as you have to be in a certain place at a certain time to transition your child - during the working day. More encouragement to employers to offer flexible work practices (and part time jobs that are not just entry level or menial) would help. Judges recognising that parents may want to work a regular job may also help. I am fortunate to have a skill that can potentially lead to self employment, setting my own hours to some extent.

When it comes to it, nobody thinks their relationship will be one of the statistics when things are going well but things change. The heartbreak of a failed relationship is a minor part of the story when you end up stranded and unable to visit your family. If you choose to migrate, at least be aware of that possibility.

How about a group for people who are self-employed or running their own business? There's a lot specific to those topics (although I can't claim to know many answers).

More from the wisdom of the family court australia http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/girls-in-hiding-from-dad/story-e6freoof-1226355288334

The original link has expired but another article about the story is here. The girls and their mother left Italy after what they (including the girls) describe as considerable abuse from the father. One of the girls described him breaking one of her thumbs in a rage. The girls say they are settled and happy in Australia and don't want to leave. There have been many court hearings and at on point a relative went on the run with the girls. The papers last reported that the father has given up and gone back to Italy although I suspect that is unlikely. They argue that he gave permission for them to come to Australia, he says only for a holiday. This has dragged on for quite some time and the girls' family has gone to extraordinary lengths to try to stay here.

The girls had a court case claiming they should be afforded the right to be heard in court; they lost that case. Had they won, it could have had enormous ramifications for future legal hearings. I have mixed feelings about it in that it may add to pressure on children, not all of whom are equipped to express their feelings in a daunting situation. Children's feelings should be considered but the possibility of them being pressured and manipulated by one or both parents would be a problem. On the other hand I know only too well the heartbreak of having a child pleading with you not to send them to their other parent only to have to make them go, no matter how scared or unhappy they seem.

There are probably plenty of sensible decisions made by courts that we don't hear about but I certainly know of many erratic, strange or downright scary orders made by judges here and some of those I have watched in action seem lacking much sanity (maybe that is what the job does to them?) - I have heard more than one lawyer describe family court as a crap shoot. I'd say it is worse than that. Before I harp on any more - I'll say that anyone with doubts about a relationship before coming here should think very carefully - going through court appearances over years without family support close by is very hard indeed. If you can work on things and get to a better place for a while before leaving, it may reap rewards in more ways than one. Simply moving here, while rewarding ultimately for some, is not easy and to do that on fragile foundations would have a lower chance of success.

Stepping away from the pulpit now...

That was unforgettable, our queen is a great sport for taking part that way and I am especially impressed by all those doctors and nurses (almost all apparently actually work for the NHS). Its a long time since I shed so many tears and they were happy ones.

I know this has come up a few times on the thread but I'm really not sure you can. It's a pretty general principle of law that you can't write a contract that overrides statutory or common law - unless in exceptional circumstances

 

I would have thought an agreement between two parents as to who gets to take the kids home if they break up, written when they are still together, is likely to be pretty worthless if the break-up actually occurs and the other parent contests it. Circumstances have changed, etc etc, and common law (precedent) will give them a presumption of contact/access, whatever an agreement written in the past might say

Pintpot, I think you're absolutely right on the legality of any agreement and certainly wouldn't say it safeguards anything. That said, it is probably not a wasted exercise if it prompts parents to at least consider the potential repercussions of a move. Marriage breakdowns are of course not so easy to predict but if a relationship feels rocky, it would be prudent to think very carefully about moving away from support networks.

Some of the hard facts about what happens... aside from being stuck somewhere you may not wish to live til your children are adults... if, say, a family member in the UK is hospitalised, you can't rush to their side. You can't just take a holiday to visit loved ones unless your ex agrees to it. If your parents are elderly and unable to travel here, you can't just go and visit (unless you're OK with leaving your kids behind). You might not see them again. You need to consider before moving (whether to Australia or the UK) if you can accept these things. For some people the move can work out great, for some terrible - better to at least be prompted to consider the risks.

My mum won't be able to make the journey here again. I haven't broken that news to my child yet but had to wipe little one's tears this week because Grandma is missed so much. I hate that I put my child in this situation. So, forgive me if I am whining a bit here - sometimes venting helps me put back on my happy Mummy face before doing the kindy run. I wouldn't say to people not to move so much as to just be very aware of what they are taking on and avoid some of the shocks.

Grr, internet went off when I tried to post and I lost what I wrote... anyway, SBS TV are looking for people to interview who left Australia with their children without the permission of the other parent. The info I have (I am not connected with SBS at all):

Topic: Parental Consent Issues: This episode of Insight with Jenny Brockie will talk about parents who take their children overseas without the permission of the other parent. Are you a mother who felt there was no choice but to leave Australia with your children without the consent of their father? Then Insight wants to talk to you. Perhaps you did it to protect your children. Perhaps you did it because you disagreed with a Family Court decision that ordered shared parenting. Perhaps you went back to your country of origin, leaving an ex-partner behind in Australia. Whatever your reasons, Insight would like to talk to you about it over the phone and potentially have you involved in the program.

Requirements: You need to be happy to share your story on SBS Television. This program is being filmed 7.30pm Friday 27 April in our Sydney studios. We cover travel costs and one night's accommodation for guests. An initial phone conversation with Insight staff is required to confirm your participation. Send a few sentences about your story so Kym has a bit of background before calling. Contact: Contact Kym, Associate Producer by E: kym.middleton@sbs.com.au 'WNA Member - Media Call Service' in the subject line of your email.

 

Read more: http://www.womensnetwork.com.au/page.cfm?PageCode=press-call&site_id=1#ixzz1sFoxBX3T

If you can't watch the show when broadcast, I think SBS put a lot of their shows online. Maybe interesting viewing for anyone with children.

One thing people should also consider.... it may not be just that you can't relocate completely back to the UK... you may also not be able to even go back for visits unless you either leave your children behind or else pay to go through court to ask permission for a holiday - and there is no guarantee it will be granted. Unfortunately there are parents who will continue to use their bit of 'power' in this way, no matter how much a child may wish to see grandparents etc.

It may sound obvious but, if you have concerns about your relationship in the UK, don't expect moving to Australia to make things better.

Sorry to read your friends in this situation. The only thing that I can see where things look good in her favour is the age of the children. Once a child reaches a certain age (approx 12 I think, but no quotes) the courts listen to their choices.

 

If she is looking at a reconciliation, it may be worth her while to request that they all move to the UK as a family, to help the situation if they ever split again and to provide her with a support network if the abuse continues..... once the parents make a conscious decision to move back to the UK then the children become residents of the UK same as when they went to the AU, and the HC would stop them leaving the UK. Does that make sense?

 

Her other option would be to seek legal advice and get the ball rolling asap for an international relocation. This can cost up to and over $100,000 to fund. Can take over 2yrs of draining court cases where all past and present is dragged through the courts. Leaving AU is not simple, and even in cases where there is abuse toward the other parent the courts don't always stop contact with the children. If this was the case her chances of returning may be slim as the courts are very active in promoting relationships between father and child, regardless of his abuse to the mother or his contributions financially. BUT saying that, the age of the children do go in her favour, the older they are the more chances of their wishes being heard in court.

 

Best of luck to her

Almost never, even if that abuse is in front of the child, well documented and proven and it seems even if the child has experienced abuse there is usually still priority given to maintaining that relationship. Generally it seems that adherence is quite rigid with very little consideration for such circumstances.

I would urge anyone thinking of coming to Aus who believes their spouse is or may be abusive to reconsider. Legal aspects aside, the value of having a support network is immeasurable.

Probably a question for a qualified legal adviser, Helen. I would think that their father would have some claim as their remaining parent. Your husband could probably apply for custody but I don't know which way the courts here would go.

I wonder what the background story is behind this, what caused her to leave in the first place. Either way, it seems sad for the child to have a parent jailed.

I was advised by a solicitor that it is better to get written permission, ideally in the form of a stat dec, just in case immigration in another country en route is having a crackdown or gets a bit over-enthusiastic. I didn't ever have to use the permission (this was while I was with my child's father) but better safe than sorry. A stat dec is easy to do - you can get the form from most newsagencies and sign it in front of a JP.

Another thing to consider very carefully for anyone going through this... if you do apply for relocation, there are many judges here who may consider that means you do not support the child's relationship with the other parent, which they may count as reason to award far more custody to the other parent than they may otherwise do. So there are risks associated with even applying.

This is a tough and emotive subject. Having left two stepkids in the UK (This was their choice not to come - they were 17) I can see both sides.

 

I know there would have to have been some very strong arguments raised in order for my OH to have signed anything for his kids to be able to be taken anywhere.

I think that is reasonable where the person in question is a decent parent and it involves taking them away from their home country. When that is not the case, when, one parent just can't settle overseas and is suffering or where one parent is abusive, it becomes horribly complicated and there's no neat or perfect answer is there? The Hague Convention has very worthy aims but it has significant flaws that cause untold heartbreak.

I would thinnk it very doubtful that an agreement signed before you even arrive here based on a what-if scenario would be very had to enforce, it would at best serve to be an agreement between the two of you to be honoured based on your own integrity. How much that's worth depends on the two of you probably (and if you're making such serious efforts then that may be enough, where it isn't for many).

In terms of Veryhopeful's story, lets hope there's a happy ending and she doesn't feel the desire to go home before her ex does. I can't speculate too much based on the brief details given but I will say that I believe that a parent who conducts ongoing long-term abuse towards the other parent is unlikely to be a good influence. The child(ren) can be immeasurably harmed if they witness this abuse of their parent so it does damage the children even if not directed at them.

I think there is a certain amount of difference between the habitual abuser and the person who blows up under extreme pressure of separation and court (not that its OK). I don't know which of these applies in veryhopeful's case but tapping phone calls etc sounds pretty extreme. In theory orders should be made that protect the parent's safety as well as the children but I know from personal experience this is not always the case.

You're right and that's a big part of what makes it so tough. I do think even in the abstract it is good that you have opened that conversation. A lot perhaps depends on the age of the child and maybe there are other measures to consider, like committing to making holidays to the UK a priority above other non-essential expenditures. I think that being forced to be here would be a whole lot more bearable if that were an option for me, so maybe that would be a start. I think in any case having a supportive other parent who is understanding of the desire to go back to the UK would be worth a lot, even if there isn't agreement. Or maybe some agreement to spend an amount of years in each country, but depending on your son's interests.

So pleased someone read this before they moved. The thing I found was that as a single parent you just want family and friends around for support. Its very difficult being alone on the other side of the world with no-one.

 

Good luck and I hope you never have to make this decision

I agree exactly... any benefits (and of course there are benefits of living in either country) can be lost if you feel isolated without family support when you become a single parent. I think that sometimes courts in their indecision leave children in a worst of both worlds situation. I will say that I don't think their job is easy in making these decisions but sometimes the child's best interests seem to get lost among the red tape.

It is very hard to weigh up which things have most value and this is something that can't neatly fit in the court's framework because it doesn't allow for every parent and child being different. Is having a very negative effect by making a custodial parent stay in a country they don't feel settled or supported outweighed by having time with the other parent all the time? What if that parent is for example abusive or a drug user or has personality issues or even (less extreme but quite common) does not have the motivation to really make that relationship a strong one. Does that outweigh having involved and loving extended family. In some cases the answer may be yes and in some no but courts don't really deal well with those grey areas. I'm waffling a bit.

Good on you and your wife, Neil, for at least opening the discussion. I hope you'll be able to go back to it again at some point when you've both reflected more. I think it is brave of you to consider your child may be better with his other parent and that statement in itself shows your love.

My personal opinion is that most times the child benefits from a well-supported custodial parent more than the debatable opportunities of living in Australia. I'll admit a lot of bias though :cute:

I can only say from my experience that once my child (and the father) were here with an application in the system, my ex was not asked to leave and had to change the visa type sought. I don't think it cost him anything much to change that application either. That is because we were in Australia when we separated though - if she is still in the UK, it would be another matter and the visa could be cancelled.

I would strongly recommend against being anything other than completely honest on the DIAC forms. Aside from anything, your ex may be able to claim certain things if she takes you to court on custody matters because you have signed a DIAC form saying so.

Confusedd, has your ex given any reason why she wants to separate? It may not be first choice but, unless there is a very significant reason otherwise, if you were in the UK she would have a very weakened case if she has said she will prevent contact altogether. The UK may put a little more weight than here in Aus on proven domestic violence or abuse towards the child (not suggesting that is the case with you, it is with me) but otherwise the court will likely take a very dim view - she does have the right to change her mind about moving and honestly I think it very hard to win a relocation if she is the primary caregiver but if you choose to be in the UK you may get a big chunk of custody perhaps and certainly should get contact rights even if you stay in Aus unless the reasons are very compelling indeed.

No idea on the visas unless it is because she won't get to keep her spouse visa based on changed circumstances but would get right to abode under another family visa based on your daughter's permanent residency?

I guess it depends on whose needs become most important when you have children. It is not an easy situation for anyone. It may be that you do have to compromise or find a solution that brings her folks here for a while?

Especially first time, while it is exciting to be pregnant, it is also very intense and can be quite scary. It is pretty natural to want familiar comforts around. It is a huge adjustment in itself and added to being away from family, quite daunting (I had mine over here and honestly wish I had move back to the UK but that is for other reasons). It is also the time that you realise that you are no longer free to come and go between countries, that someone else can stop you. That can bring up a lot of fear and what-ifs.

Here's the thing. Having a child with someone away from home means that if things don't work out, you are effectively still prevented from going, well, pretty much anywhere by that person unless they choose to allow it. Even for holidays. In my case, as my parents become more elderly, that could mean I don't get to see them again. For those of my family unable for whatever reason to travel, I will get to see them in 15 years or so. While I am not saying you would put your partner in that situation (I would hope not, I can assure you it is not good for kids for their mum to be unhappy) it is scary still to hand someone that power. When you think of it like that, I expect you can see while your partner may feel panicked.

Hope that job works out for you OK, Luke. At 18 I figure you're old enough to choose for yourself (only natural your mum will worry and miss you though, its what we do :rolleyes:)

I'm so very sorry for everyone thats going through this, its heartbreaking. If its any help at all, Keep on doing what you're doing, when the children are older they'll remember.

I was determined that no matter what happened I was never go to say bad things about dad. I always used to say "I'm sorry dad said something like that. Lets forget about it now and go and do........"

Now my kids are grown up, with kids of their own, my relationship with them is still very solid, because they feel as though they can trust me, and know that when they needed it I put them first. Whereas dad made all the classic mistakes, his relationship with them is veeerry tenuous. He desparately tries to keep them in his life, but they remember, and without any help from me.

:hug: to all of you going through this. Its a long haul but will be worth it for you and the kids in the end.

I think that is a great way to handle it with grace and without badmouthing, I will try to use that method myself, thank you.

I guess it is a matter of knowing that it will ultimately hurt little one if I add to the whole mess by retaliating, that thought is a heck of an incentive to behave... I can't control what my ex does, only how I behave and the example I set. It is frustrating as hell but not much choice other than get on with it. You gave me a laugh with the Christmas present though :laugh:

I guess I am a bit jaded as well because one of the problems is the assumption that each parent has the child's welfare as a high priority and that is not always the case unfortunately. I do my utmost to make things as easy as I can on little one, do not criticise LO's father to her (the opposite in fact, probably overcompensate) only to have a confused little one coming home saying "Daddy says you're bad and mean and this isn't my home any more."

I was chatting with a child psychologist recently and she told me the bulk of her clients are people caught up in the fallout of the shared care assumption. She also mentioned there is more recent research that suggests that assumption is a disaster for children, but that it takes a very long time to adjust accordingly.

The reality is, each case should be taken on its merits because each child and family is different. There are other guidelines that seem to be often ignored, such as not putting a parent and child at risk from the other parent where domestic violence is a factor. Factors such as addiction and mental disorders, drug use, alcoholism should IMO be taken far more into account. Note I am careful to say parent because it certainly can be either parent who has these issues. Should there still be an assumption of shared care where one parent is a frequent drug user, where one parent been abusive to the other over the child's head, made threats of abduction, etc.

OK, rant over.