Concerned about quality of education in Australia

[Diane]

Just to add that private schools are worth considering for children at either end of the spectrum: as well as being cheap in comparison to UK private schools, many also offer scholarships - there is a scheme here in SA (also covers couple of WA schools I think) called ACEP http://www.acer.edu.au/tests/acep through which both of my kids were lucky enough to be offered discounted places at a local private high school. Individual schools also offer things like music scholarships, sports scholarships, language scholarships etc. Neither of my kids I would add is top of the class either! Some State schools here have something called the SHIP programme (Students of High Intellectual Potential) offering accelerated learning. Adelaide University is also way up there in the list of universities worldwide - my brother went to Southampton many years ago, which was considered a pretty good uni, and Adelaide Uni beats that in the league tables! There is a lot of excellent medical and other research coming out of Australia too - wasn't the cervical cancer innoculation invented (developed?) here?

 

I was classed as in the top 1% of 7 year-olds when I was at infant school - went through UK schools till I was 18, never went to Uni....it's been downhill academically for me ever since! Ah, halcyon days.....

[John2012]

Not sure I am a fan of parental intervention as the do gooders believe they speak for everyone. Important for arms length parental guidance though.

[Paul1Perth]

Intelligence is so hard to nail down isn't it. Who's to say that a kid who is driven by strict parents and made to study nearly all the time, so does really well in exams and ends up at a good Uni, is any more intelligent than one who goes to state school, scrapes through their exams but spends a lot of time out with their mates, avoiding homework, but gets an apprenticeship and a decent qualification. My eldest would be in the 2nd bracket. A few of his mates who went to uni are still bumming around not really knowing what they want to do. Most of them are still owing a lot of money from the loans they stacked up.

 

He's been qualified as an electrician for 2 years, has a nice car, good job, no debts, went on 3 holidays abroad last year.

 

Uni isn't the be all and end all. There are a lot of people out there with qualifications coming out of their ears, but struggle to get a job.

[boganbear]

I used to work for the research organisation that does the TIMSS and PISA studies and Australia is much higher up in the international league tables although it has been falling over the last couple of studies but the Uk has got continually worse over recent years. However, you can get good and bad schools anywhere but from talking with my OH about the education he had, it seems to be much more rounded in Australia, less pressure regarding exams, more sports and other activities and generally seems to be a lot more fun, probably less homework and less stress. Vocational education is much better its seems in Australia and qualifications are high quality so if your kids don't end up going to uni then the alternatives are much better than in the UK whether that is vocational training or getting a job with training which can lead to fantastic money like most of the tradies that live in my area or friends who never went to uni. I truely regret going to university as it has not led to a more secure career opportunities or more money.

 

Given the choice of a British education and an Aussie one, I wish I had the Aussie one.

[Paul1Perth]

Like you say boganbear, there are good and bad schools in every area mate, and they can operate totally differently. My eldest went to a local state school and hardly did any homework. My youngest has autism so we payed for him to go to a local private school which is SUPPOSED to have a "special needs" stream. He is absolutely swamped with homework and because of his learning difficulties it takes him hours to do what a "normal" kid would do in half an hour. He is so conscientious, though that he is determined to do it. He sometimes starts when he gets in from school and is still trying to do stuff at 9:00 at night. We help him no end but a lot of the time he won't let us. Just his way I guess.

 

I think they get way too much homework at the school he's in and a lot of the time it just stresses him out and is counter productive. Luckily we found an agency in Perth who look after people with learning difficulties and they have been brilliant. He's in his final year at school and they've managed to place him with a job come traineeship at UWA. He does 2 days there and 3 at school, gets paid at UWA too and will eventually lead to a certificate in business. We are hoping that it may lead to a full time position but that's a long way off. The school changed his courses a little to work around his days off but the first week at work they gave him 2 assignments which had to be in by the following week, then sent an e-mail to home saying that he was tired at school and struggling with his work. They "suggested" that he might have to give up his course if his schoolwork suffered. We obviously suggested other options as the job is helping him far more than extra schoolwork. School is only a stepping stone for the rest of your life.

 

Teachers are a bit blinkered I reckon, they can only see as far as their own little world. Thye best teachers I've come across are ones that have had a "real" job before going into teaching. Oh boy, I'm letting myself in for it here.:wink:

[Quinkla]

Not sure I am a fan of parental intervention as the do gooders believe they speak for everyone. Important for arms length parental guidance though.

I can't believe you would dismiss parents who try to do the best for their kids as "do gooders".

[Harpodom]

What I don't get re the UK education system is how A level results get better year on year, and according to what people are saying on this thread, the UK is slipping further and further behind internationally. Can anyone explain this paradox?

[Guest Guest66881]

Further education after secondary school as failed, the skills required have fallen way behind most other countries.

Academically doing great is some areas of the UK, but the trade skills have been left to rot really.

[Quinkla]

What I don't get re the UK education system is how A level results get better year on year, and according to what people are saying on this thread, the UK is slipping further and further behind internationally. Can anyone explain this paradox?

That’s an easy one.

Schools have a vested interest in achieving high exam scores.

The exam boards are independent organisations which have a vested interest in attracting as many schools to sit their exams as possible, rather than the schools using their competitor boards. The best way to attract schools is to offer higher grades to students.

The quality of exams is judged by the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority, a semi-autonomous part of the Department of Education. They survive by giving ministers the outcomes that ministers want. And ministers want higher grades because it indicates that their policies are raising standards and this makes parents (voters) and A Level students (also voters) happy.

Therefore all the stakeholders benefit from the grades creeping up year on year – and so long as no-one takes it too far and stands too far from the crowd, nobody will feel compelled to do anything about it.

And since the primary purpose of the exam system is to grade people into hierarchies rather than indicate absolute levels of knowledge, it is easily solved by introducing new grades to slot in above the current highest grade.

[Harpodom]

That’s an easy one.

 

Schools have a vested interest in achieving high exam scores.

 

The exam boards are independent organisations which have a vested interest in attracting as many schools to sit their exams as possible, rather than the schools using their competitor boards. The best way to attract schools is to offer higher grades to students.

 

The quality of exams is judged by the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority, a semi-autonomous part of the Department of Education. They survive by giving ministers the outcomes that ministers want. And ministers want higher grades because it indicates that their policies are raising standards and this makes parents (voters) and A Level students (also voters) happy.

 

Therefore all the stakeholders benefit from the grades creeping up year on year – and so long as no-one takes it too far and stands too far from the crowd, nobody will feel compelled to do anything about it.

 

And since the primary purpose of the exam system is to grade people into hierarchies rather than indicate absolute levels of knowledge, it is easily solved by introducing new grades to slot in above the current highest grade.

 

but it's just daft (the progressive rise in marks). How do UK universities compare with the rest of the world?

[LKC]

Intelligence is so hard to nail down isn't it. Who's to say that a kid who is driven by strict parents and made to study nearly all the time, so does really well in exams and ends up at a good Uni, is any more intelligent than one who goes to state school, scrapes through their exams but spends a lot of time out with their mates, avoiding homework, but gets an apprenticeship and a decent qualification. My eldest would be in the 2nd bracket. A few of his mates who went to uni are still bumming around not really knowing what they want to do. Most of them are still owing a lot of money from the loans they stacked up.

 

He's been qualified as an electrician for 2 years, has a nice car, good job, no debts, went on 3 holidays abroad last year.

 

Uni isn't the be all and end all. There are a lot of people out there with qualifications coming out of their ears, but struggle to get a job.

 

I agree. I have two undergrad degrees, and I don't use either of them in the job I do now. I did zoology and optometry, and although I did work as an optometrist for a number of years, I hated the job and couldn't wait to finish when we had children. I now run my own business, I started it up last year and own an online shop which sells bridal jewellery and accessories. I enjoy what I do now, and I have lots of satisfaction in that I have saved up the initial capital, I designed the website and I deal with the day to day running of the business.

 

I have always achieved good results through school and uni, but I have not an ounce of confidence. I would have liked to have stuck with my original career choice of biological sciences, and probably would have gone on to do a PhD and in to research, but I have always been very shy and lacking in confidence for various reasons. It is too late for me now to do what I would have liked (I am 37 and way too old and with too many other commitments to effectively start again).

 

I have two daughters, our eldest is at school (year one) and is happy and doing well. The school seem to be encouraging her confidence, which is incredibly important in my opinion. I do get a bit fed up of our girls being compared to other young family members (who are gifted this, talented that, top in the class for the other - actually I suspect that this isn't the case at all, it is the parents pushing and the kids seem pretty miserable most of the time), but I will be happy if my girls both leave school and go to uni or do whatever else they want, that they are happy, and that they have the confidence to get on in life.

[RockDr]

but it's just daft (the progressive rise in marks). How do UK universities compare with the rest of the world?

 

The unis are still taking the best of each year-group, regardless of what the grades are called. So grade-inflation isn't really an issue from that point of view.

[Harpodom]

The unis are still taking the best of each year-group, regardless of what the grades are called. So grade-inflation isn't really an issue from that point of view.

 

what i'm getting at is how do we know what the actual quality of university undergraduates is like if there is no standard bench mark of quality? and as posters on this thread have insinuated that UK education standards are falling behind other countries, how does that measure up in terms of the international rankings of universities?

[RockDr]

Oxbridge and the Redbrick unis are doing fine in the world ranking, same as always. There are also several lesser known unis that produce very good graduates, but don't rank well because the research side of things isn't as developed.

 

However just because the top establishments are doing fine, doesn't mean the education system as a whole doesn't have flaws. Unis are just one part of education, and the top unis represent an even smaller subset. What about everyone else? Academia isn't the be-all and end-all of education, nor should it be. Not all degrees are equal. A good degree in an in demand subject from a good university will generally put you up near the top of the pecking order when looking for jobs. Other degrees are barely worth the paper they're written on, and certainly not worth the student loan.

[Harpodom]

Oxbridge and the Redbrick unis are doing fine in the world ranking, same as always. There are also several lesser known unis that produce very good graduates, but don't rank well because the research side of things isn't as developed.

 

However just because the top establishments are doing fine, doesn't mean the education system as a whole doesn't have flaws. Unis are just one part of education, and the top unis represent an even smaller subset. What about everyone else? Academia isn't the be-all and end-all of education, nor should it be. Not all degrees are equal. A good degree in an in demand subject from a good university will generally put you up near the top of the pecking order when looking for jobs. Other degrees are barely worth the paper they're written on, and certainly not worth the student loan.

 

what would you class as a degree worth the paper it's written on? I never said academic achievement was the be all and end all, but it's pretty bloody important in education I'd say.

[Quinkla]

A good degree in an in demand subject from a good university will generally put you up near the top of the pecking order when looking for jobs. Other degrees are barely worth the paper they're written on, and certainly not worth the student loan.

Ironically, the only place that has ever been impressed by the institution that issued my degree was my present employer in Australia. In the UK, they just treat a first as a first; a 2:1 as a 2:1, etc. regardless of where they were obtained.

[Quoll]

Neither of my lads were much impressed by their Aus uni experience. Both of them had the experience of being group graded for some subject areas and neither of them liked it. One found himself in a group comprising some kids who could barely speak English and others who could barely bother to get out of bed sober in the morning - he complained about the grade he was given for the group assessment and the uni reviewed it and regraded him significantly. They both went to one of the highest ranking Aus unis (and one went on to another for a post grad course and had the same experience) so, forgive me if I dont think Aus higher education is all that it is cracked up to be (we wont go into the direct comparison I have of my first degree in UK and my postgrad degree in Aus - it was some time ago and the difference was most marked!!!!!). Mind you, one son had his Aus degree accepted without question for his UK career and he hasnt been disadvantaged by it.

 

As for school education in Aus - I really dont think it is all that TBH. All this about "teaching kids to think" and "giving the kids more confidence" I really dont see much difference other than that UK kids have a much better grounding in literacy and numeracy as a general rule. I see any number of very confident kids here in UK and have seen some of the projects they have done (family and friends and teacher friends) and have had experience with any number of bullied and unhappy kids in Aus so there probably isnt much to choose between them. I do believe that Australia still features well above UK in youth suicide and mental health stats though so that doesnt necessarily argue a fabulous educational experience either.

 

At the end of the day though, a bright kid is going to make the most of their education - or not - regardless of where they are.

[Quinkla]

Neither of my lads were much impressed by their Aus uni experience. Both of them had the experience of being group graded for some subject areas and neither of them liked it. One found himself in a group comprising some kids who could barely speak English and others who could barely bother to get out of bed sober in the morning - he complained about the grade he was given for the group assessment and the uni reviewed it and regraded him significantly. They both went to one of the highest ranking Aus unis (and one went on to another for a post grad course and had the same experience) so, forgive me if I dont think Aus higher education is all that it is cracked up to be (we wont go into the direct comparison I have of my first degree in UK and my postgrad degree in Aus - it was some time ago and the difference was most marked!!!!!). Mind you, one son had his Aus degree accepted without question for his UK career and he hasnt been disadvantaged by it.

I am doing Postgrad at the moment in one of the top Australian universities (apparently the top Australian university at the moment) and am having the same group grading experience. One of my group stated an express wish that the group did "the minimum necessary to pass" and have turned in a piss poor group assignment. I did a better version and circulated it to them but they rejected it because they agreed that one of the others would do the final edit. This final edit included sentences which had no meaning, was full of malapropisms, and fundamentally didn't answer the question that was posed. Instead it was just an endless succession of [irrelevant] web references.

 

The latest assignment says: " Group management is a matter for the group itself, including issues of free-rider behaviour."

[Quoll]

I am doing Postgrad at the moment in one of the top Australian universities (apparently the top Australian university at the moment) and am having the same group grading experience. One of my group stated an express wish that the group did "the minimum necessary to pass" and have turned in a piss poor group assignment. I did a better version and circulated it to them but they rejected it because they agreed that one of the others would do the final edit. This final edit included sentences which had no meaning, was full of malapropisms, and fundamentally didn't answer the question that was posed. Instead it was just an endless succession of [irrelevant] web references.

 

The latest assignment says: " Group management is a matter for the group itself, including issues of free-rider behaviour."

Good luck with that then!!!

 

Sad to see that it isnt only Canberra and Queensland that have the group grading process then, I would have thought Uni Melb was above all that - just goes to show I guess!

[Guest Relocate Northern Beaches]

Michelle

Where are you thinking of locating to and would you consider a private school?

[caramac]

As for school education in Aus - I really dont think it is all that TBH. All this about "teaching kids to think" and "giving the kids more confidence" I really dont see much difference other than that UK kids have a much better grounding in literacy and numeracy as a general rule. I see any number of very confident kids here in UK and have seen some of the projects they have done (family and friends and teacher friends) and have had experience with any number of bullied and unhappy kids in Aus so there probably isnt much to choose between them. I do believe that Australia still features well above UK in youth suicide and mental health stats though so that doesnt necessarily argue a fabulous educational experience either.

 

 

I can only comment on private education in both countries, but we found we were very happy with our girls' primary education in Perth, but much less impressed with high school in Sydney. Both our older girls found that the teachers taught to the text book and said all they had to do was basically copy passages from the board or books. The teachers wouldn't discuss anything outside what was in the books, usually saying 'We're not studying that' even if the question was related to what they were doing.

Our middle daughter constantly asks questions and she found it very frustrating. She says the teachers at her school here always have time to answer her questions and if they don't know the answer, will go away and come back with it to the next lesson (she does ask some strange things!). They are also willing to teach around subjects and take the lesson 'off course' if they think it's appropriate. I know this is just our limited experience, but it does show that there are not so good schools in Aus and great ones here; it's a matter of finding one to suit your child.

I do agree re the exam system in the UK though. I hate the constant stress of exams from year 9. Our youngest is doing a GCSE this year - she's only 13 and the idea that she has another four years of this to go makes me sad.

 

My oh is a psychiatrist who specialises in youth mental health and he'd agree with Quoll regarding the mental health of young people in Australia. Too many suicides.

[pintpot]

Ironically, the only place that has ever been impressed by the institution that issued my degree was my present employer in Australia. In the UK, they just treat a first as a first; a 2:1 as a 2:1, etc. regardless of where they were obtained.

 

I agree with this for many subjects. Pure sciences I think are different, as it depends what the particular Uni does in terms of research and people hiring in that area will know which Unis are up to speed and which less so

 

In Engineering, the degree courses are so heavily moderated and influenced by the Institutions and the EngC that it really doesn't matter much where it is from. You'll get some kudos from a degree from Imperial, or a postgrad one from Oxbridge. Slight anti-kudos from a degree from an old poly. But we're talking small increments here. Actually I like that, the last thing I would want is a HE sector where everyone is uber-obsessed with ranking, it distorts everything so much with people trying everything they can to get in. Like in America

[RockDr]

Ironically, the only place that has ever been impressed by the institution that issued my degree was my present employer in Australia. In the UK, they just treat a first as a first; a 2:1 as a 2:1, etc. regardless of where they were obtained.

 

To a certain degree I agree with you. Oxbridge excepted, a 2:1 from any of the top 50 or so unis in the UK will be treated pretty much the same.

 

But there is a downwards trend in employability as you go down the uni rankings. http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings obviously these are stats, to be taken with a pinch of salt, but there's quite a big difference in the graduate prospects of the bottom 20 unis (45-65%) and the top 20 unis (68-86%). According to their blurb, that's the percentage of students that get graduate jobs or further education, as opposed to run of the mill jobs in retail etc that don't generally require degrees.

 

Irrespective of how good the degrees are, if you're an employer and have a choice between a 2:1 from a uni you've heard of, and a 2:1 from a uni you didn't even know existed, you'll go with the one whose reputation you're more familiar with. Hence students from the better known unis are more competitive on the job market.

 

Getting a 2:1 is also worth more on the job market than getting a third. And some subjects are more job-oriented than others.

 

Leaving aside the education for education's sake argument, from a job-prospects and financial point of view, a 2:1 in engineering/sciences/medicine/law/teaching/nursing etc from a top 50 uni, is going to be worth significantly more than (for example) a third in french from Roehampton university. That student who spent lots of time and money getting the third in French from Roehampton would probably have improved their jobs prospects just as much (and become significantly more fluent in French) just going to live and work in France for a year, without getting into huge amounts of debt.

[Quinkla]

But there is a downwards trend in employability as you go down the uni rankings. http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings obviously these are stats, to be taken with a pinch of salt, but there's quite a big difference in the graduate prospects of the bottom 20 unis (45-65%) and the top 20 unis (68-86%). According to their blurb, that's the percentage of students that get graduate jobs or further education, as opposed to run of the mill jobs in retail etc that don't generally require degrees.

Perhaps, although the place on the ranking table is partly derived from this "employability" score so it is rather a circular definition.

 

It is possible that the best students apply to particular universities and that when it comes to employment, they get the jobs because they were better to start with. It's not the university name that makes them employable, it's the skills they had to get into that university to start with.

 

Having been on both sides of an interview panel, I am not aware of ever having seen university reputation/ranking playing a part in the UK. I have only ever seen people judged for their employability skills.

[pintpot]

Having been on both sides of an interview panel, I am not aware of ever having seen university reputation/ranking playing a part in the UK. I have only ever seen people judged for their employability skills.

 

Exactly my experience