ErmintrudeMcMoo Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 If we could have learnt from history and Heysel - about limiting the amount of tickets to certain clubs fans. It would have been an under capacity crowd - make up the difference by charging individual fans more. It has happened, we have no learnt from it. Common sense should have said no fences in the first place, but hooliganism unfortunately got its just desserts that day.[/quote] Sorry but what do you mean by that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHANO7 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 If we could have learnt from history and Heysel - about limiting the amount of tickets to certain clubs fans. It would have been an under capacity crowd - make up the difference by charging individual fans more. It has happened, we have no learnt from it. Common sense should have said no fences in the first place, but hooliganism unfortunately got its just desserts that day. From what we have read over the years this was not down to Hooliganism. LFC requested when the stadium was allocated this game that LFC were given the opposite , bigger end due to the fanbase . The FA decided not to grant this request . Also reading players Biographies from this time they all mention that there had been severe delays due to roadworks and the game was asked to be delayed due to this. This would have allowed the Police more time to make rational decisions and not rush into just opening the gates in the middle section of the Leppings lane end. When the disater happened what I saw was fans rusihing to the aid of stricken fans. Police again not being able to make a decision to open the gates when they could see fans climbing over the fences and fans being squashed. Certain sections of Government and the Authorities have masedd this over the years by blaming Hooliganism. the fences went up due to Hooliganism in the 80's but Hilsborough did not happen as result of Hooligansim on that day. It was down to Police being unable to handle a situation correctly. How you can say that Hooliganism got its just deserts that day is shocking. Justice for the 96 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest57588 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 From what we have read over the years this was not down to Hooliganism. LFC requested when the stadium was allocated this game that LFC were given the opposite , bigger end due to the fanbase . The FA decided not to grant this request . Also reading players Biographies from this time they all mention that there had been severe delays due to roadworks and the game was asked to be delayed due to this. This would have allowed the Police more time to make rational decisions and not rush into just opening the gates in the middle section of the Leppings lane end. When the disater happened what I saw was fans rusihing to the aid of stricken fans. Police again not being able to make a decision to open the gates when they could see fans climbing over the fences and fans being squashed. Certain sections of Government and the Authorities have masedd this over the years by blaming Hooliganism. the fences went up due to Hooliganism in the 80's but Hilsborough did not happen as result of Hooligansim on that day. It was down to Police being unable to handle a situation correctly. How you can say that Hooliganism got its just deserts that day is shocking. Justice for the 96 As a Pen 4 survivor I thank you mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Surely the Hillsborough problem was the lack of numbered tickets for numbered seats? That's been resolved so there shouldn't ever be a repeat. We've already had the Taylor report so why on earth is a parliamentary debate required? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest37336 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Just for a second and seeing as how I bought MacKenzies name into it. Whoever was to blame is a little too late but the slug that is MacKenzie said that several fans were pi77ed upon by fellow supporters while they were receiving medical treatment. He also said that the dead and injured had their pockets picked whilst injured or dead. Said my peice, and whilst it nay never come to light about what really happened MacKenzie did nothing to quell the fears and vitriol that followed the disaster. Cheers Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Liverpool fans hooliganism in Heysel running towards neutral fans re-iterated the need to have fences up - these led to fans being crushed. The years of English fans doing this in their own country but to top it off on foreign soil means that we had a troublesome situation. Those fans that ran to the Juventus fans that day stopped 21 good teams playing in Europe the following years including Everton, Derby County, Nottingham Forest etc. I am sorry the Taylor report was very kind to Liverpool - it is far easier to point the finger at the police. It is shocking what happened, and it must hurt those affected deeply. I support the police officers who put their lives on the line every day - they should not have had to tolerate with loutish behaviour of fans who enjoyed a few beers that day and turned up late. These police officers were going to do a days work and have had to live with their supposed guilt of not performing their duty that liverpool fans have pointed the fingers at over the years. It's happened, we have great new stadiums and fans should be breathalysed before games. Ticketing has been sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Officially the entire blame for the incident was laid on the fans of Liverpool **. On 30 May official UEFA observer Gunter Schneider said, "Only the English fans were responsible. Of that there is no doubt." UEFA, the organiser of the event, the owners of Heysel Stadium and the Belgian police were never investigated for culpability. There was no official inquiry into the causes of the disaster.[7] The above quote from Wikipedia article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 If we don't learn from history we are condemned to repeat it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevenw8971 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Just for a second and seeing as how I bought MacKenzies name into it. Whoever was to blame is a little too late but the slug that is MacKenzie said that several fans were pi77ed upon by fellow supporters while they were receiving medical treatment. He also said that the dead and injured had their pockets picked whilst injured or dead. Said my peice, and whilst it nay never come to light about what really happened MacKenzie did nothing to quell the fears and vitriol that followed the disaster. Cheers Tony. This man should be condemned for those comments and that really should be the end of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevenw8971 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Marchman: we kind of get your point, but this seems to be an anti-lfc crusade your on. Not only are you sticking the knife in you're twisting it as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I have put arguments for and against. Both parties could have been better. In an ideal world we would need no police and have no alcohol. PERIOD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Marchman: we kind of get your point, but this seems to be an anti-lfc crusade your on. Not only are you sticking the knife in you're twisting it as well ps... i am not anti-lfc. I do not support Manchester Utd, Everton or any other such rival club. I am seeing it through neutral eyes - if you are a liverpool fan or person, you are bound to have judgement clouded and thoughts entrenched in your mind - popular opinion etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHANO7 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Marchman You have a very BIased and unjust view of Liverpool Fans. For someone clearly knowledgable you appear to miss out certain points. Or just want to forget valid points raised. I watched Heysel unfold on the TV as a child and quite clearly saw fans from other English Clubs in the Liverpool end . The trouble escalated when rival Italian fans and not just Juve fans threw stones etc at the Liverpool end. This was pointed out by the fans to the Police who let it go hoping it would stop. The fans in the Liverpool end rightly or wrongly decided enough was enough and wrongly in my opinion decided to take action. Unfortuneately the ground was so old ( again mentioned by LFC to UEFA who kept the venue, the incident will never be fogotten. It was also clearly a Juve fan brandishing a gun at the police during the trouble. English teams were banned from Europe because Thatcher suggested the very next day that this should happen. You didnt have to be einstein to realise this would then be swooped upon by Uefa. before you ask ,I am a Liverpool Fan but I have my stance down to knowing the facts as I have read them not as I want to interpret them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Points well made Shan. I have lived in Liverpool - love the city and the people. I am sorry if my views are somewhat biased - but it seems to be that Liverpool fans are very keen to protect their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Congrats on the visa 2 Shan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHANO7 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Points well made Shan. I have lived in Liverpool - love the city and the people. I am sorry if my views are somewhat biased - but it seems to be that Liverpool fans are very keen to protect their own. You cant argue with facts just ask Rafa Liverpool fans will protect their own as they have been through the mill with such events over the years and total blame is put on them when if all the facts were laid out and everyone was honest then clearly this blame would be diluted. Only then i feel will LFC and its fans feel that some justice has been served. Thanks for the comments on my families Visa grant.... much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErmintrudeMcMoo Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Officially the entire blame for the incident was laid on the fans of Liverpool **. On 30 May official UEFA observer Gunter Schneider said, "Only the English fans were responsible. Of that there is no doubt." UEFA, the organiser of the event, the owners of Heysel Stadium and the Belgian police were never investigated for culpability. There was no official inquiry into the causes of the disaster.[7] The above quote from Wikipedia article. Ok so what you are saying is that because of Heysel, pens became the norm therefore it was the hooligans own fault and they got what they deserved?? I have a real problem with that because you know what - it wasn`t hooligans who died that day it was someones son, someones father, somone husband... ask the families if they feel their loved ones got their just desserts, go on I dare you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest 47403 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Well the debate happens today lets hope they see sense and decide to release ALL cabinet documents relalting to the disaster. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-15303879 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Not sure what anyone really hopes to get out of this in the way of justice after all this time? I don't see how it will bring closure whether Margaret Thatcher wanted to steer the blame away from the police or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Ok so what you are saying is that because of Heysel, pens became the norm therefore it was the hooligans own fault and they got what they deserved?? I have a real problem with that because you know what - it wasn`t hooligans who died that day it was someones son, someones father, somone husband... ask the families if they feel their loved ones got their just desserts, go on I dare you. Yes I am aware of that. What I am saying fella is that the continued hooliganism by Liverpool and other clubs meant fence had to be erected in the grounds, for this there was no means of escape for the fans. This was a disaster fella, innocent lives were lost and for that I am very sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Not sure what anyone really hopes to get out of this in the way of justice after all this time? I don't see how it will bring closure whether Margaret Thatcher wanted to steer the blame away from the police or not? 96 people died in Sheffield(the youngest 10 yoa) because of police failure,nobody has been held accountable,the two chief constables "in charge" conveniently retired on fat pensions on medical grounds soon after Hillsborough. Hundreds of police officers statements changed by order of senior officers,CCTV tape "going missing",42 ambulances on duty and only one got into the stadium,he(a scouser ironically) forced his way thru the police who refused to let the rest in,so the fans were giving CPR instead of trained medics,the fans who made makeshift stretchers out of advertising hoardings while the police and emergency services froze and left them to it. If your 10 year old son was crushed to death wouldnt you want to see someone held accountable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 When people say they want justice, for what?? I just don't get it. Yes, I know 96 people died, but ultimately the people that are to blame (regardless of the police mistakes etc) are the fans that turned up late and caused the crush ouside Fans turn up late for hundreds of games a season,but 96 people dont die do they?the police control it,they DIDNT at Hillsborough,so the people "in charge" should be held accountable,end of Your not from here so wont have the tiniest idea of the depth of feeling up here towards the lies that were told by senior S/yorkshire police chiefs and certain newspapers,in fact its coloured peoples versions of events even to this day,obviously..... If your in charge and watching CCTV and the two central pens are full,you would order your officers to direct fans into the half full side pens wouldnt yer? They never,Duckinfield ordered a big gate be opened because of the build up outside,the arrows on entrance directed the fans to the already full central pens,all it would have taken was a cpl of coppers at each tunnel to direct the fans. Anyway...so the fans at the back trying to get down the tunnels couldnt see the crush they were causing at the front of the terrace in the distance,its that easy,they should have re-directed fans,it happened previous yrs but not that yr,result............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Surely the Hillsborough problem was the lack of numbered tickets for numbered seats? That's been resolved so there shouldn't ever be a repeat. We've already had the Taylor report so why on earth is a parliamentary debate required? Numbered tickets for numbered seats??!!! at least read up a "tiny bit" on it if yer going to get all angry and indignant,a parliamentary debate involving about 60 MPs over 96 people dying at a match,what a waste of a cpl of hours on a trifling matter eh?! Read up on what the debates actually about if yer gonna comment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Liverpool fans hooliganism in Heysel running towards neutral fans re-iterated the need to have fences up - these led to fans being crushed. The years of English fans doing this in their own country but to top it off on foreign soil means that we had a troublesome situation. Those fans that ran to the Juventus fans that day stopped 21 good teams playing in Europe the following years including Everton, Derby County, Nottingham Forest etc. I am sorry the Taylor report was very kind to Liverpool - it is far easier to point the finger at the police. It is shocking what happened, and it must hurt those affected deeply. I support the police officers who put their lives on the line every day - they should not have had to tolerate with loutish behaviour of fans who enjoyed a few beers that day and turned up late. These police officers were going to do a days work and have had to live with their supposed guilt of not performing their duty that liverpool fans have pointed the fingers at over the years. It's happened, we have great new stadiums and fans should be breathalysed before games. Ticketing has been sorted. There was fences at Heysel,i know,i was in that end,didnt stop the deaths did it?btw they werent neutral fans,they were Juve fans in the neutral section,the Lpool fans charged the fence they were behind because there had been lot of stuff getting thrown. Do yer know how they died? they were crushed because a crumbling wall gave way and crushed them,they died becuse of a stampede to get away from the fence,yes lpool fans ran at the fence,so did they,the sad difference is the italians caused their own fans to panic and run in the opposite direction from the fence,then the wall gave way,fans used to run at each other all the time those days,but fortunately fans werent allways in a crumbling stadium like Heysel. Btw re ticketing etc,i didnt have to show my ticket that night,just walked straight in..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErmintrudeMcMoo Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Yes I am aware of that. What I am saying fella is that the continued hooliganism by Liverpool and other clubs meant fence had to be erected in the grounds, for this there was no means of escape for the fans. This was a disaster fella, innocent lives were lost and for that I am very sorry. Ok so when you said they`d got their just desserts you didn`t mean anything by it? That`s ok fella, Im glad we sorted that out.BTW how many fellas`s do you know called Ermintrude?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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