Guest Guest 47403 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Well the Tories tried to get the time set aside for the Hillsborough debate shortened so they could talk about MP's pensions :shocked: Well Mr Cameron has said the debate will now get the full time allocated after Liverpool MP Steve Rotherham bought it up in PM questions Hope the families finally get some answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_shel Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I dont think they'll get many answers. Maybe a lot more heartache when they hear some of the vile comments made by the previous tory administration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest 47403 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I honestly think to much time has passed for proper answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest37336 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 First place to start Baz is getting hold of Kelvin MacKenzie and showing him what 'justice' really means.:shocked::policeman: The slime ball that is MacKenzie needs a good 'talking' to, he was instrumental in purporting lie upon lie about what went on, but the smug little git is still looked upon as a 'serious' journalist and his past 'misdemeanours' have yet gone unpunished. :mad::mad::mad: Cheers Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest57588 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 First place to start Baz is getting hold of Kelvin MacKenzie and showing him what 'justice' really means.:shocked::policeman: The slime ball that is MacKenzie needs a good 'talking' to, he was instrumental in purporting lie upon lie about what went on, but the smug little git is still looked upon as a 'serious' journalist and his past 'misdemeanours' have yet gone unpunished. :mad::mad::mad: Cheers Tony. I heartily agree Tony. The pain that this hateful man has caused the bereaved families, the survivors, and many others both in the city of Liverpool and beyond is incalculable. As is his arrogance in never uttering an apology in over over 22 years for the vile headlines and mis-representation of events where 96 people died, hundreds were injured and many more affected by secondary traumas. I sincerely hope that one day he pays for the hurt he's callously caused, not just to the Hillsborough families and survivors, but to all of those who The S*n and The News of The World casually bullied, slandered or ridiculed in order to make Rupert Murdoch that little bit richer. Justice for the 96. Never buy The S*n. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest37336 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I heartily agree Tony. The pain that this hateful man has caused the bereaved families, the survivors, and many others both in the city of Liverpool and beyond is incalculable. As is his arrogance in never uttering an apology in over over 22 years for the vile headlines and mis-representation of events where 96 people died, hundreds were injured and many more affected by secondary traumas. I sincerely hope that one day he pays for the hurt he's callously caused, not just to the Hillsborough families and survivors, but to all of those who The S*n and The News of The World casually bullied, slandered or ridiculed in order to make Rupert Murdoch that little bit richer. Justice for the 96. Never buy The S*n. I would hazard a guess mate some of those of a certain age still 'think' that what on that day were 'Scousers' that couldn't behave in an orderly or proper way. And all because that slime ball of a 'reporter' decided to try and perpetrate a myth that should have gone out with the dark ages.:mad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevenw8971 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 If they had an inquiry they would only say, there were traffic problems getting to sheffield, then there was a late rush at the turnstills by fans, police were forced to open gates to stop a crush outside, there were no stewards/police inside to direct fans thus causing the crush, with the police inside thinking the fans trying to get over the fence were trying to riot. They will criticise the fans for turning up late, police/stewards for bad communications/planning and the FA for not delaying the game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest57588 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I would hazard a guess mate some of those of a certain age still 'think' that what on that day were 'Scousers' that couldn't behave in an orderly or proper way. And all because that slime ball of a 'reporter' decided to try and perpetrate a myth that should have gone out with the dark ages.:mad: Absolutely mate. One of the nastiest and most cynical aspects of how the Murdoch papers operate, is their pandering to, and reinforcement of, some of the worst prejudices that their readerships have, whether they be in the UK, Australia or America. A close family friend lost his son at Hillsborough. He and his wife never got over the loss, and their other son has spent over twenty years wracked with guilt at not being able to save his brother. Imagine that, and then reading in the UK's biggest newspaper that you and your fellow fans were drunk that day and had robbed the dead and dying, whilst assaulting the police. Cold, deliberate lies, playing upon old, old prejudices for the purpose of selling newspapers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 A lot has time have elapsed. Just my opinion: why did the Liverpool fans leave it till the last minute? where had the liverpool fans been just before they got in the ground? Would any of the fans arriving into the ground late have been under the influence of alcohol? The people who got their first - who got their early, played by the rules were affected. If a minority of people are opposed by a majority (police minority: fans majority) who are going to logically give way to the more forceful opponent. I hope some answers can be given - but you have to question why they have not been given. I think its to avoid controversy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest57588 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 A lot has time have elapsed. Just my opinion: why did the Liverpool fans leave it till the last minute? where had the liverpool fans been just before they got in the ground? Would any of the fans arriving into the ground late have been under the influence of alcohol? The people who got their first - who got their early, played by the rules were affected. If a minority of people are opposed by a majority (police minority: fans majority) who are going to logically give way to the more forceful opponent. I hope some answers can be given - but you have to question why they have not been given. I think its to avoid controversy. Read The Taylor Report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 My opinion - breathalyse all fans entering the ground - if over a given reading - lower than legal alcohol limit for driving then let them in. All in all the Taylor review has given a lot of improvements. If someone can answer my above questions by saying - no alcohol was consumed by the late arrivers / that the majority of fans were respectful to police officers being polite and well mannered / why did so many leave it till the last minute (is'nt good to get pre match atmosphere and build up - were there any really really delayed trains). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Read The Taylor Report. Read the taylor report - it all seems to blame the police. You cannot have one policeman for every supporter. If you can tell me why so many people turned up late and so much force applied by the late arrivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest57588 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 My opinion - breathalyse all fans entering the ground - if over a given reading - lower than legal alcohol limit for driving then let them in. All in all the Taylor review has given a lot of improvements. If someone can answer my above questions by saying - no alcohol was consumed by the late arrivers / that the majority of fans were respectful to police officers being polite and well mannered / why did so many leave it till the last minute (is'nt good to get pre match atmosphere and build up - were there any really really delayed trains). Roadworks on the M62, but really.... ...I can see where you're going with this Marchman. Maybe you're playing devils advocate, or maybe you hold the view that the fans really caused the disaster. That's up to you. For years I've heard very similar views about how Justice Taylor 'went easy' on the fans to ease the suffering of the families, survivors and the people of Liverpool, how it's easy to blame the cops etc. Ultimately, you believe what you want to believe. It's what people do, and football fans in the 1980's were not a part of society that the majority of people had much sympathy with. There were reasons for that, and I understand them. If you hold the view that the fans were to blame, then I'm sure that I wouldn't be able to persuade you otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 If football fans were like rugby fans, cricket fans (even in India) and as its an aussie forum afl fans there would be no need to have hardly any police. So why should there have been more. Look at the police presence at these games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I have a great deal of sympathy with the people affected. They arrived early just like I like to do at football matches. Excited people who maybe had a few drinks are not going to be the most compliant to police requests. I can see it from both sides and understand both sides of the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Tradie hero - answer the above questions...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 If we could have learnt from history and Heysel - about limiting the amount of tickets to certain clubs fans. It would have been an under capacity crowd - make up the difference by charging individual fans more. It has happened, we have no learnt from it. Common sense should have said no fences in the first place, but hooliganism unfortunately got its just desserts that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Said it before, i'll say it again, you're a clown mate:biglaugh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest57588 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Tradie hero - answer the above questions...... If you hold the view that the fans were to blame, then I'm sure that I wouldn't be able to persuade you otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Tradie hero - I am balanced in my views. I just think if you answer those questions we can then say was it indeed easy or more difficult to the police to provide order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Eric Fish - please add to the debate adding sensible views rather than decrying others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Eric Fish - please add to the debate adding sensible views rather than decrying others. mate when you stop being a wind up merchant and come up with something sensible i will, till then you remain a clown:jiggy: Incidentally, can you juggle as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Eric Fish - I am not winding up. These are balanced views. I'll just bow to political correctness you fool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paisleylass Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Well the Tories tried to get the time set aside for the Hillsborough debate shortened so they could talk about MP's pensions :shocked: Well Mr Cameron has said the debate will now get the full time allocated after Liverpool MP Steve Rotherham bought it up in PM questions Hope the families finally get some answers. I used to work with Steve Rotheram back in Liverpool, good on him for pulling Cambo up about that! Also one of my uni tutors was Sheila Coleman of the Hillsborough Justice Campaign - awesome woman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevenw8971 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 When people say they want justice, for what?? I just don't get it. Yes, I know 96 people died, but ultimately the people that are to blame (regardless of the police mistakes etc) are the fans that turned up late and caused the crush ouside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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