Guest bacardi167 Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I have only read a few posts on this thread and it seems things are getting a little heated. Please remember the forum rules and debate the subject without getting personal. Thanks Admin x Totally agree with you...frog boy is getting hammered in this post....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skani Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 My post was purely to show cruz that australians would react to the stupid, biased and dumb comments i made. this was because of Cruz's worries regarding acceptance....... unfortunately, you and others have made it so blatently obvious that i fear cruz may be having 2nd thoughts. : I fear Cruz may be having second thoughts, not because of racism in Sydney, but because he will have to put up with other migrants who make profound statements like this: stuff like this in an argument generally shuts up members of a very under-educated race with no class, manners or breeding...... I suspect that Cruz, with his attitude, will survive very well here. He probably also has the courage and integrity to react to "stupid, biased and dumb comments" himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bacardi167 Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I fear Cruz may be having second thoughts, not because of racism in Sydney, but because he will have to put up with other migrants who make profound statements like this: I suspect that Cruz, with his attitude, will survive very well here. He probably also has the courage and integrity to react to "stupid, biased and dumb comments" himself. you really dont understand do you?!!! you are obviously entitled to take exception to anything anybody says, and you make take it that i honestly believe the points i posted if you wish..... its a shame you dont read what is posted fully and make your own mind up before you get to the point.....? you are obviously an intelligent person who, i guess, feels offended. if you really think that is the case, then i appologise to you....... if you cant accept that, then thats up to you.... problem is i have proved my point and this constant arguing will not aid Cruz in any way. cruz has already seen what a few stupid comments can do...... well thank you for the fun, work tommorow so time for bed. i hope you get over it and next time you hear someone make a stupid remark (as per my post) think about why it was said, instead of blindly jumping..... nite nite and hope to speak to you at a later date...sweet dreams ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Surely it failed because clever little lawyer Johnny Howard ensured the wording of the referendum was such that there was only one possible outcome Republic question Electors were asked whether they approved of: A proposed law: To alter the Constitution to establish the Commonwealth of Australia as a republic with the Queen and Governor-General being replaced by a President appointed by a two-thirds majority of the members of the Commonwealth Parliament It seems like a simple enough question to me though I suppose Howard might have schemed to get the 'two thirds majority.....' BUT surely if you wanted a republic, and according to the polls most Aussies did, they would have answered 'YES'!? I mean, if you hate the Queen, any republic is better than none at all? Then again, only 8 out of 44 Referendums have been passed so I guess Aussies, like Brits are generally conservative in their nature? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish.01 Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Republic questionElectors were asked whether they approved of: A proposed law: To alter the Constitution to establish the Commonwealth of Australia as a republic with the Queen and Governor-General being replaced by a President appointed by a two-thirds majority of the members of the Commonwealth Parliament It seems like a simple enough question to me though I suppose Howard might have schemed to get the 'two thirds majority.....' BUT surely if you wanted a republic, and according to the polls most Aussies did, they would have answered 'YES'!? I mean, if you hate the Queen, any republic is better than none at all? Then again, only 8 out of 44 Referendums have been passed so I guess Aussies, like Brits are generally conservative in their nature? Only a minority of australian republicans hate the queen. For a lot of us it is about Australia continuing the natural journey begun at federation and to ensure our institutions continue to keep pace with reality. I wish no malice on the queen, rewriting of the history books or removal of our close ties with the UK. Before the referendum there was over 70% for the republic but a lot were firm in their view that they wanted the president chosen by the people not the politicians. So the clever tying of the two questions guaranteed that the referendum could not pass - john howard had a party afterwards to celebrate his success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoandJon Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I don't hate the Queen at all, I just think Australia should be a republic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Only a minority of australian republicans hate the queen. For a lot of us it is about Australia continuing the natural journey begun at federation and to ensure our institutions continue to keep pace with reality. I wish no malice on the queen, rewriting of the history books or removal of our close ties with the UK. Before the referendum there was over 70% for the republic but a lot were firm in their view that they wanted the president chosen by the people not the politicians. So the clever tying of the two questions guaranteed that the referendum could not pass - john howard had a party afterwards to celebrate his success. What's wrong with that? John Howard is a proud Aussie and he thinks (rightly in my view) that Australia is better governed as a consitutional monarchy than a republic. What evidence, after all, is there that a republican form of government is better, fairer, cheaper, or by any other yardstick? USA? France? Pakistan? South Africa? Why does a 'natural journey' begin at Federation and end with a republic? I prefer to think of a longer 'natural journey' that began, say, in 1215 with Magna Carta, and continues to this day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I don't hate the Queen at all, I just think Australia should be a republic I don't hate the Queen either but I just think that Australia should stay a consitutional monarchy. I hate to use a cliche but in this case it seems fitting - 'if it ain't broke, why fix it?' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harpodom Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 you really dont understand do you?!!! you are obviously entitled to take exception to anything anybody says, and you make take it that i honestly believe the points i posted if you wish..... its a shame you dont read what is posted fully and make your own mind up before you get to the point.....? you are obviously an intelligent person who, i guess, feels offended. if you really think that is the case, then i appologise to you....... if you cant accept that, then thats up to you.... problem is i have proved my point and this constant arguing will not aid Cruz in any way. cruz has already seen what a few stupid comments can do...... well thank you for the fun, work tommorow so time for bed. i hope you get over it and next time you hear someone make a stupid remark (as per my post) think about why it was said, instead of blindly jumping..... nite nite and hope to speak to you at a later date...sweet dreams ! Hi Bacardi wow, I'm dazzled by your prowess at proving a rather pointless point: if you make an outrageously stupid comment, then people will react!:notworthy: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish.01 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 What's wrong with that? John Howard is a proud Aussie and he thinks (rightly in my view) that Australia is better governed as a consitutional monarchy than a republic..... "What's wrong with that?"...Rigging the question to ensure failure is undemocratic. "John Howard is a proud Aussie"....Aren't people on both sides of the debate Aussies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 "What's wrong with that?"...Rigging the question to ensure failure is undemocratic. "John Howard is a proud Aussie"....Aren't people on both sides of the debate Aussies? I presume, that as the current PM, as he was, then he was entitled to use that to his advantage, as a PM does when he/she calls a General Election. I seem to recall The Falklands War was a huge boost to Margaret Thatcher. Sometimes, it works, sometimes it doesn't. Winston Churchill was booted out in 1945. In any case, how could he be SURE that the 'NO" vote would win? And what's wrong with holding a party afterwards? All winning politicians do that, even Thatcher, and who'd want to go to a party with her (apart from Arthur Scargill?) Yes, they are all 'proud' Aussies - perhaps I should have said 'as a fervent supporter of constitutional monarchy' or words to that effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish.01 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 I presume, that as the current PM, as he was, then he was entitled to use that to his advantage, as a PM does when he/she calls a General Election. No, not meant to be the spirit of a referendum at all. Meant to go to the people with a genuine democratic choice. Totally different to a government deciding when their own term in the current parliament ends. In any case, how could he be SURE that the 'NO" vote would win? Referendum's are notoriously hard to pass. Pre-polling showed enough supported a republic but splitting the vote by tying the two questions together was an iron clad guarantee of failure. Might as well have saved the money as the decision was already made by one man. And what's wrong with holding a party afterwards? Apart from the gloating impartial aspect of holding a high profile party directly after an issue like that I believe it was taxpayer funded. Yes, they are all 'proud' Aussies - perhaps I should have said 'as a fervent supporter of constitutional monarchy' or words to that effect. Yes, not wise of those preventing the possibility of any outstanding Australian becoming Head of State of their own country to appear to be claiming to be more "proud Aussies" than the other side :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 No, not meant to be the spirit of a referendum at all. Meant to go to the people with a genuine democratic choice. Totally different to a government deciding when their own term in the current parliament ends. Referendum's are notoriously hard to pass. Pre-polling showed enough supported a republic but splitting the vote by tying the two questions together was an iron clad guarantee of failure. Might as well have saved the money as the decision was already made by one man. Apart from the gloating impartial aspect of holding a high profile party directly after an issue like that I believe it was taxpayer funded. Yes, not wise of those preventing the possibility of any outstanding Australian becoming Head of State of their own country to appear to be claiming to be more "proud Aussies" than the other side :wink: Perhaps the reason why it is so hard to achieve a 'yes' vote in a referendum is that Australians are, at heart, conservative people. The phrasing of the question was just one of the reasons why the 'no' vote won. People may well SAY they are going to vote one way but when the actual moment comes, they 'take a step back' and think what they actually voting for? I wonder what would happen if there was ever a referendum of the return of capital punishment? Polls often show a majority in favour of this but, in both UK and Australia, you won't find many MP's on either side of the House, in favour. I noticed that this referendum was unusual because both NSW and VIC voted 'no'. Usually, the smaller states 'gang up' against them and vote counter to 'their' wishes. I also noticed that the media was PRO republic which was interesting given the alleged power of the Murdoch Press to influence opinion now. The Governor General IS, in many ways a President/Head of State anyway. When was the last time a Briton was appointed GG? The Queen, as 'Queen of Australia, NOT GB, acts on the advice of her (Australian) PM. If you think that the present GG - Quentin Bryce - and her predecessors have all been less than outstanding, what makes you think they would be any better as Presidents of an Australian Republic? If you are complaining about wastage of public funds, you will have no argument with me! When have politicians NOT done that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoandJon Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Can I just say thank-you for such a civilised and interesting debate (and in such contrast to other threads at the moment)!! MaryRose you raise some very valid points, and although I will continue to disagree with you I salute you for your arguments (some of which I agree with). Can I still call him frog-boy though? He really does make my skin crawl! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Can I just say thank-you for such a civilised and interesting debate (and in such contrast to other threads at the moment)!! MaryRose you raise some very valid points, and although I will continue to disagree with you I salute you for your arguments (some of which I agree with). Can I still call him frog-boy though? He really does make my skin crawl! Who is 'frog-boy?' 'Little' Johnny Howard? I must 'Google' or go back thru the threads. I was just reading in an article in The Australian 'Using Rights To Gag Free Speech' a quote attributed to John Milton in 'Areopagitica' in 1644: 'Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.' The article finishes 'If you let them take your right to free speech, how are you going to stop them taking all the others?' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish.01 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Perhaps the reason why it is so hard to achieve a 'yes' vote in a referendum is that Australians are, at heart, conservative people. I agree. Has been a part of the success of Australia. The phrasing of the question was just one of the reasons why the 'no' vote won. People may well SAY they are going to vote one way but when the actual moment comes, they 'take a step back' and think what they actually voting for? That's the thing, it never got a chance to be tested sadly. I wonder what would happen if there was ever a referendum of the return of capital punishment? Polls often show a majority in favour of this but, in both UK and Australia, you won't find many MP's on either side of the House, in favour. ... Agreed, see above. I also noticed that the media was PRO republic which was interesting given the alleged power of the Murdoch Press to influence opinion now. Certainly more balanced than now. The Governor General IS, in many ways a President/Head of State anyway. When was the last time a Briton was appointed GG? The Queen, as 'Queen of Australia, NOT GB, acts on the advice of her (Australian) PM. If you think that the present GG - Quentin Bryce - and her predecessors have all been less than outstanding, what makes you think they would be any better as Presidents of an Australian Republic? ... No time at the moment for why I think we should have a republic.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 I agree. Has been a part of the success of Australia. That's the thing, it never got a chance to be tested sadly. Agreed, see above. Certainly more balanced than now. No time at the moment for why I think we should have a republic.... I'm a 'small c' conservative. If Australia was a republic and there was a referendum to change to a monarchy, I'd vote 'no' to that too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoandJon Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Who is 'frog-boy?' 'Little' Johnny Howard? I must 'Google' or go back thru the threads. I was just reading in an article in The Australian 'Using Rights To Gag Free Speech' a quote attributed to John Milton in 'Areopagitica' in 1644: 'Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.' The article finishes 'If you let them take your right to free speech, how are you going to stop them taking all the others?' I'm afraid I must confess to always using the phrase frog-boy to describe our esteemed ex-prime minister. It all started years ago when I realised it drove my family nuts. Of course then I was unable to call him anything else! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bacardi167 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Hi Bacardiwow, I'm dazzled by your prowess at proving a rather pointless point: if you make an outrageously stupid comment, then people will react!:notworthy: T hank you.... and for my next trick i will be attempting to debate why football is called football (not soccer) and why it will always be better than rugby .......!!:wink: :hug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bacardi167 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 But seriously, I am impressed by the knowledge of those debatinbg the refferendum topic....I obviously dont know any of this..... very interesting views........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 But seriously, I am impressed by the knowledge of those debatinbg the refferendum topic....I obviously dont know any of this..... very interesting views........ I had to do some research as I've never voted in a referendum. I was in the UK for the one on the republic. I remember being surprised that many young people of non-British background were voting no. I had assumed that the 'no' camp would be made up mainly of older people of British stock. Australia has a written constitution so I think a referendum is the only way to make changes to it? I'm not sure how the Americans change theirs - by Amendment? You hear about 'taking the 5th'? In UK we do have referendums sometimes? But we do not have a written consitution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoandJon Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 There was a referendum in the UK last year (or earlier this year i get confused), something about the voting system. I remember the republic referendum was fraught with debate and controversy, mostly because of how the main question was phrased, but also because of the idea of inserting a preamble into the consititution (I think) that included a statement about Australian Identity. I remember much discussion about how unnecessary it was to talk about mateship when it was all blatantly obvious anyway!! It's only been since I left Australia that I really have come to appreciate how much of a distinct identity Australians (en masse) actually do have. And I'm talking about all the Aussies - white, black, pink, purple, short, tall, bald, hairy - even the stupid ones that annoy the beejeezus out of me. So although at the time I was a little bit reticent about having something about mateship in the constitution, now I think I'd actually support it. (Depending on the actual phrase I suppose) Weird how you grow up eventually isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 No one will care but I am so glad the UK did not go into the Euro currency as it is doomed and will be gone in 5 years so the experts are saying this morning, it will cost those in it billions to scrap it and reintroduce their former currencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skani Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 I remember being surprised that many young people of non-British background were voting no. I remember seeing some of them interviewed on TV. They said they were voting no because they thought that their original country had deteriorated after exchanging monarchy for republicanism (eg. Greece). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 I remember seeing some of them interviewed on TV. They said they were voting no because they thought that their original country had deteriorated after exchanging monarchy for republicanism (eg. Greece). Thanks for reminding me - I had a similar thought. And of course that is also why I would have voted 'no'. Ironic too because one of the reasons for becoming a republic is that our ties with Britain are irrelevant to people born overseas. Becoming a republic could well be worse for Australia too, not that the pro-republicans would care - they would have long moved on to 'fix other things that aren't broke!' Reminds me of the way that John Major's Government 'fixed' the railways for us as a going away present. They all got their knighthoods of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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