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Guest Sir Les Patterson
I haven't met a person yet, who has a good word about him.
Well you've met one now. I have met the man on several occasions and he is a top bloke.

Intelligent, articulate and with a sense of history for this nation. A natural Aussie that calls a spade a spade and if you don't like it...stiff sh!t.History will look kindly on Paul Keating and he will be remembered in the future as one of our great Prime Ministers. The economic reforms the Hawke Government started that were continued and expanded by Keating are one of the reasons Australia enjoys such economic prosperity today. Even Howard and Costello grudgingly alluded to this.

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Well you've met one now. I have met the man on several occasions and he is a top bloke.

Intelligent, articulate and with a sense of history for this nation. A natural Aussie that calls a spade a spade and if you don't like it...stiff sh!t.History will look kindly on Paul Keating and he will be remembered in the future as one of our great Prime Ministers. The economic reforms the Hawke Government started that were continued and expanded by Keating are one of the reasons Australia enjoys such economic prosperity today. Even Howard and Costello grudgingly alluded to this.

 

How do you feel about his comments on Gatherings at ANZAC cove?


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Guest sh7t man no way

 

Does anyone else get fed up with these australians continually bleating on about how we shafted them at Gallipoli, an event that took place nearly 100 years ago. Also they lost a total of around sixty thousand during the years 1914 to 1918 we lost 350,000 dead on the Somme July/August 1916. Do you ever here us going on and on and .......
no i dont get fed up with anybody going on about the needless loss of life weather that life be australian or any country that sacrificed there young people for the want of a better world--for me we should alway talk about the human loss in wars,as a stark reminder to what the future may hold

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I wish I could find an article written by an Australian WW1 historian in about 2004, it was called something like "The Ten Myths of Gallipoli" and used to be in the interwebs, but I can't find it for looking now.

 

One of the major points he made was that the "Australian" troops were in the majority first generation English and Irish immigrants, thus they were fighting for their home country, not Australia at all.

 

Another major point that was made, was that there was no fighting for "freedom" or any other abstract; it was an attempt to invade another country in order to create a supply route to Russia. Nothing more. At the time Australia also had expansionary aspirations and used the outbreak of WW1 to invade German held territory in the Pacific.

 

Recently a fantastic article by an ABC journalist came out bsaically saying how sad it is that thousands make a pilgramage there every year, basically knowing jack all about why it was done in the first place.

 

I could go on about the other myths surrounding machine gun fire at Anzac Cove (didn't happen; there were no Turkish machine gun outposts in Anzac Cove at all, later cover from Gebe Tepe caused casualties in later battalions landing, but the beach was seized largely unopposed during the initial landing. It was British troupes landing at Cape Helles who got razed, and the Anzac Cove "myth" springs from that), or that the troops landed on the wrong beach (utterly wrong; an intial mix-up occurred with a jumble of boats in the dark, but come daylight all landed exactly where was intended). The other good one about incompetant British leadership? The landing plan drawn up by General hamilton was acknowledged as being fine, and the landings were delegated to and led by the Australian Maj Gen Bridges and his (Australian) officers.

 

I'm not going to go into this much further; it's not a history lesson, but I would very much encourage anyone who has a passing interest to do a bit of research into the background of the campaign, rather than subscribing to this "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori" that surrounds it. Be proud of the men, but don't regard it as anything more than an invasion of another country's land.

 

I went to the Dawn Service at Anzac Cove a few years ago. I have never seen such a display of utter xenophobia by young Australians, wrapped in national flags and treating the whole thing like a rock concert. there was not a shred of dignity about the whole thing and it depressed me utterly.

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On my ramblings around the internet I found an alternative view on Gallipoli which I found interesting

 

 

 

Just so you understand the background context....

Paul Keating has an alternative view on EVERYTHING :wink:

He enjoys "stirring the possum" whenever he has an ear to bend and has done it continually, both while in Parliament and since losing his position as Prime Minister.

Some ex Prime Ministers have a "lack of attention" deficit disorder :rolleyes:

He was a great performer in this respect while in Parliament but much of what he said there could not be printed here because it would be censored as too crude by the Mods!

 

You should also understand that, historically, Australia had a very strong Irish Catholic anti-British subculture - arising from the many Irish who migrated here at the time of the potato famine and remembered it for generations - and Keating, as a descendant of Irish immigrants, particularly enjoys sticking the boot into the British.

He has a penchant for collecting French clocks and Italian suits but I doubt if he would eat an English biscuit if it were offered to him.

 

What this article seems to high light is that Australia has an unfortunate need to prove it's self worthy, which I find a bit bizarre.

 

He was talking about a country which was 14 years old at the time - not much older than East Timor is now as a sovereign state. Any country just emerging from colonial status to independence wants to prove itself.

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I wish I could find an article written by an Australian WW1 historian in about 2004, it was called something like "The Ten Myths of Gallipoli" and used to be in the interwebs, but I can't find it for looking now.

 

One of the major points he made was that the "Australian" troops were in the majority first generation English and Irish immigrants, thus they were fighting for their home country, not Australia at all.

 

Another major point that was made, was that there was no fighting for "freedom" or any other abstract; it was an attempt to invade another country in order to create a supply route to Russia. Nothing more. At the time Australia also had expansionary aspirations and used the outbreak of WW1 to invade German held territory in the Pacific.

 

Recently a fantastic article by an ABC journalist came out bsaically saying how sad it is that thousands make a pilgramage there every year, basically knowing jack all about why it was done in the first place.

 

I could go on about the other myths surrounding machine gun fire at Anzac Cove (didn't happen; there were no Turkish machine gun outposts in Anzac Cove at all, later cover from Gebe Tepe caused casualties in later battalions landing, but the beach was seized largely unopposed during the initial landing. It was British troupes landing at Cape Helles who got razed, and the Anzac Cove "myth" springs from that), or that the troops landed on the wrong beach (utterly wrong; an intial mix-up occurred with a jumble of boats in the dark, but come daylight all landed exactly where was intended). The other good one about incompetant British leadership? The landing plan drawn up by General hamilton was acknowledged as being fine, and the landings were delegated to and led by the Australian Maj Gen Bridges and his (Australian) officers.

 

I'm not going to go into this much further; it's not a history lesson, but I would very much encourage anyone who has a passing interest to do a bit of research into the background of the campaign, rather than subscribing to this "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori" that surrounds it. Be proud of the men, but don't regard it as anything more than an invasion of another country's land.

 

I went to the Dawn Service at Anzac Cove a few years ago. I have never seen such a display of utter xenophobia by young Australians, wrapped in national flags and treating the whole thing like a rock concert. there was not a shred of dignity about the whole thing and it depressed me utterly.

 

While his points may be relevant to the facts of the event itself I don't think they change the significance of what the event was used for in Australia's history. i.e. the separation from mother country. While interesting in themselves the details of the event are mostly irrelevant in that context.

 

That excessive flag waving jingoism of some young people was encouraged in John Howard's era and the legacy of that 10 year period remains today. Hopefully it will die down to the more moderate level it held before that. Many Australians dislike the excessive flag waving that some have been manipulated into. I suspect he encouraged it to provide a bulwark against the calls for a better flag. An over-reaction to Keatings anti British establishment attitude. Thankfully it hasn't overtaken anzac day in Australia which remains mostly a family occassion.

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I have to admit that I always have time for Paul Keating. He is very outward looking for an Australian, and a great thinker. He and Hawke brought many of the changes to Australia that Thatcher brought to the UK, without setting the country's people at war with each other.

 

You will note that the Obama's also touched the queen, and then wasn't nearly as much fuss as when Keating did it. 'Hands off Cobber!'

 

I was always told that the biggest mistake with Galipoli was to run battleships up and down the coast bombarding the forts, and then wonder why they weren't taken by surprise? But it was a crap war anyway. Much like the American civil war, which they should have learnt from, the weaponry had gone far ahead of the tactics. This resulted in wholescale slaughter.


Nearly there! Don't drop the ball now guys! Vaccines are weeks away. Stay safe!

 

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Guest Sir Les Patterson
How do you feel about his comments on Gatherings at ANZAC cove?

 

He is entitled to his opinion and in some respects I agree with it. I have been to ANZAC Cove but not on Anzac Day ( I even have a little bottle of sand from the beach). I have though attended the Anzac Day ceremonies at the Australian War Memorial at Villers-Bretonneux which to me is far more significant as that is where my grandfather fought as part of the 33rd Battalion.

Keating did say that Australians should place far more emphasis on the New Guinea campaign than Gallipoli and in this I agree with him wholeheartedly. This is from a family perspective as this was where my father was after coming back from North Africa. If you want to see a reasonably accurate portrayal of what it was like I recommend the movie Kokoda. I walked the Kokoda Track in the early 90's and I was quite fit guy in my early 40's and I struggled. I saw jungle warfare in Vietnam and it is not a pleasant thing but it was nothing like what my father and the rest of the Aussie troops must have went through, and I did it in the dry season.

In the closing epilogue of the movie Kokoda there is this message

"The massively outnumbered Australians were eventually forced to withdraw from Isurava and fight a series of desperate rearguard actions back along the Kokoda track. After three more weeks of bloodshed, the Japanese, stretched to breaking point, were forced to retreat even though they were now in sight of their goal, Port Moresby the capital of Papua New Guinea. For the first time in the Second World War the Japanese army had been stopped. Australia would not be invaded. Chiselled into the memorial at the village of Isurava are four words: - Courage - Endurance - Mateship - Sacrifice - "

.......and some of you may wonder why I love this country so much

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Guest Sir Les Patterson
My old man said they chased the Italians from one end of Nth Africa to the other then the Germans came and chased them back again.He also mentioned fighting the french foreign legion in either Syria or Lebonon.

I See your in Cairns,i lived in Redlynch for twenty years.My mates were in 2RAR

 

Heyyu, I remember Dad saying the Italians were pretty easy but the Germans were another matter.

Redlynch.....nice suburb..my partner almost bought a coffee shop at the Redlynch shopping centre.I am mostly between Port Douglas (winter) and the Gold Coast (summer) when I am home and at work Hong Kong/Middle East/Asia/USA and Europe but it's always good to get home.

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How sad you are.You really cannot be serious to put a post on here like that!A life is a life regardless of how many died from one country or another.Those young men actually gave their life for what they believed in,and you have the audacity to sit smugly and question why they are revered here,:wacko: Also,whether it was 90 odd years ago,or 90 odd seconds ago,what has that got to do with your point?This post makes me want to vomit!Those men had families who grieved over their loss till they died,sounds to me like you couldn't even comprehend all this though.How sad you are.

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Guest guest36187

You know what's missing from this thread.....the original poster! Wnder if they have anything further to

add....

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Guest Sir Les Patterson
You know what's missing from this thread.....the original poster! Wnder if they have anything further to

add....

 

Yes, I was wondering that myself....pity I was going to personally invite him to a Vietnam Vet's gathering on Anzac day to say a few words of appreciation. lol

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You know what's missing from this thread.....the original poster! Wnder if they have anything further to

add....

I think posts like Rockola's may have chased him / her away

 

 

 

How sad you are.You really cannot be serious to put a post on here like that!A life is a life regardless of how many died from one country or another.T hose young men actually gave their life for what they believed in,and you have the audacity to sit smugly and question why they are revered here,:wacko: Also,whether it was 90 odd years ago,or 90 odd seconds ago,what has that got to do with your point?This post makes me want to vomit!Those men had families who grieved over their loss till they died,sounds to me like you couldn't even comprehend all this though.How sad you are.

 

 

To play devils advocate here, the OP did complain about the being “fed up with these Australians continually bleating on about how we shafted them at Gallipoli”. To be fair its that fact that Britian is being blamed for Australia's loses seems to irritate (understandable) them, not the ANZACs commemoration itself, although it is only speculation on my part, it would be only fair to have their view before slagging them off!

 

 

 

I wish I could find an article written by an Australian WW1 historian in about 2004, it was called something like "The Ten Myths of Gallipoli" and used to be in the interwebs, but I can't find it for looking now....................................I went to the Dawn Service at Anzac Cove a few years ago. I have never seen such a display of utter xenophobia by young Australians, wrapped in national flags and treating the whole thing like a rock concert. there was not a shred of dignity about the whole thing and it depressed me utterly.

 

 

It would be interesting to see that article. I also read some where that they lost only 2 men in the evacuations.

 

 

I can totally understand being depressed by antics at ANZAC Cove, wrapping yourself in a flag is reserved for sporting events and in my view is not befitting of ANZAC Cove which is effectively a cemetery

 

 

 

He was talking about a country which was 14 years old at the time - not much older than East Timor is now as a sovereign state. Any country just emerging from colonial status to independence wants to prove itself.

 

 

It still seems like Australia is still trying to prove itself, or at least that is the way the media portrays Australia. I find this sad, and as far as I'm concerned completely unnecessary.


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History gave the italians a rather raw deal. They are always depicted as cowards who surendered at the first opportunity. But I have recently read that the Germans stole all their armour, fuel, transport and ammunition - so they didn't really have a lot of choice.


Nearly there! Don't drop the ball now guys! Vaccines are weeks away. Stay safe!

 

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Heyyu, I remember Dad saying the Italians were pretty easy but the Germans were another matter.

Redlynch.....nice suburb..my partner almost bought a coffee shop at the Redlynch shopping centre.I am mostly between Port Douglas (winter) and the Gold Coast (summer) when I am home and at work Hong Kong/Middle East/Asia/USA and Europe but it's always good to get home.

Surmising your a pilot , mate of mine was head of the pilots assoc in Hong Kong before the take over by China ex QANTAS left after pilots strike [graham humphries] to fy frieght Hong Kong to Manchester

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History gave the italians a rather raw deal. They are always depicted as cowards who surendered at the first opportunity. But I have recently read that the Germans stole all their armour, fuel, transport and ammunition - so they didn't really have a lot of choice.

this was before the germans arrived,they commandeered the italian equipment when they landed in nth africa.The italians heart was not in it as i have been told by an italian veteran of that time as according to him there fathers had been part of the allies in ww1and only a small minority supported Mussolini.

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Guest peacock

My grandfather fought at Galliopli, he was in the KOSBs, then went on to fight at the Somme. he lost a lung in a gas attack, but lived on well in to his eightys, they are all brave men and and deserve our respect for what they went through.

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I also read some where that they lost only 2 men in the evacuations.

 

 

Well, that would be a blessing after already suffering 34,100 killed and wounded Anzacs (Australians and NZers).

 

It still seems like Australia is still trying to prove itself, or at least that is the way the media portrays Australia. I find this sad, and as far as I'm concerned completely unnecessary.

 

The view from Shropshire must be very different to the view from Tasmania.

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[it would be interesting to see that article. I also read some where that they lost only 2 men in the evacuations.]

thats because they came up with an ingenious method to fool the turks that they were still there.they rigged thier rifles with a water setup where one bully beef can would drip water into another attached to the trigger thus firing the weapon when there was nobody there

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Can't find a copy of it but I think this is the reference for the article that's been mentionned, if someone finds a direct link to it, could they post it here?

the essay "Exploding the myths of Gallipoli" by Australian War Memorial historian Ashley Ekins (The Bulletin, April 27, 2004).

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[it would be interesting to see that article. I also read some where that they lost only 2 men in the evacuations.]

thats because they came up with an ingenious method to fool the turks that they were still there.they rigged thier rifles with a water setup where one bully beef can would drip water into another attached to the trigger thus firing the weapon when there was nobody there

 

They had been gone for 3 days before the Turkish realised wasn't it?


Kind Regards

 

Geoffrey (32, an aussie!!), Tracy (35), Jake (7), Jessica (2) & Joseph (1) :jiggy:

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RockDr, that's like the one I remember, except there were more "myths" explained, I'm certain it was 10.

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they must have done something right the Imperial War Museum dedicates a section to the Aussies

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