Gallipoli

[Skani 5,287]

I was particularly referring to instances like in the article below:

 

 

That was in 2005 and received a lot of criticism from back home in Australia for the same reasons you questioned it. I think the service has become more subdued since then.

 

I also feel that the following is also a illustration of fact that people do not really know the true meaning of the day. The language used is that same as is used for advertising sporting fixtures and trivialises the soldiers sacrifice and seems to be “Cashing in”

 

Some business people will (try to) cash in on anything. But look at some of the responses

 

"Show some bloody respect. Men died there and they want to trivialise it with a football match."

 

"I understand the desire for such a concept, but it seems to me like this would only serve to cheapen the whole Gallipoli / ANZAC Day experience. Anyone who has been there (on ANZAC day or any other day for that matter) would agree it's a time and a place for solemnity, rememberance and reflection. A rugby league test at Gallipoli, on this day, seems well out of place."

 

"no, just plain wrong. disrespectful"

 

It would be a very controversial decision if it proceeds.

 

Funny enough I was thinking about “Irish Wakes” when I was writing my last post

 

Obviously two great minds, Webweazel!!

[Paul1Perth 5,857]

Gallipoli was a disaster of poor intelligence and planning.Maps supplied to the British and Anzacs showed a virtually flat terrain instead of the cliffs hills and ravines that existed,the ammunition of one British regiment didn't fit that of another even though they were 303, they underestimated the Turks and their commander Mustapha Kemal.The architect of the campaign Winston Churchill was forced to resign

 

It was a war and mistakes are always made. I'm sure the commanders and troops all wanted to do the right thing, with the information they had at the time. No-one wants to get people killed, or lose a battle.

 

Everything can be looked at in hindsight, mistakes found, blame given out.

Look how the floods in Queensland have been scrutinised and people blamed for others getting killed. On the day it happened they probably all did their level best to help and put their hand up to help. Months later they have a royal commision and want to blame people for things that happened.

 

The folks that went to help and are now being made to feel guilty must feel terrible. They have to live with that every day thinking "what if I'd done things differently".

 

In war situations where you have limited intelligence, someone has to make a call about what to do. You just can't sit there and do nothing.

Easy to blame people later on when you have time to sit back and analyse everything.

 

I'm all for going back to a "need to know" basis in war situations. It's getting to the point where you would be second guessing yourself in a kill or be killed situation in Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq or other war torn countries, whether to shoot or not for fear of being brought up before a war crimes commission.

 

Who would be a soldier these days?

[tracy123 5,093]

As others have said, you need to understand the reasons behind it.

 

It's not just about the war, but it's about the people and our nation.

 

 

If I have read right?

 

At that point in time Australian's seen themselves as English, this war was only going to be a short holiday, the first conscripts had to be over a certain height and even a missing tooth would see you refused, within a few days Australia had filled it's quoter with brave men.

It was also the first time Australia fought under it's own flag, up till that point we were merged into British units.

 

So you see it's not just about Gallipoli but about the birth of the Australian people standing on their own.

 

I feel very proud of our brave men and I get that through learning about their actions, it starts in school and never leaves you. Learning about this point in time is an important part of Australia's history..

 

Lest we forget! :notworthy:

[Guest guest30038]

"Does anyone else get fed up with these australians continually bleating on about how we shafted them at Gallipoli, an event that took place nearly 100 years ago. Also theylost a total of around sixty thousand during the years 1914 to 1918 we lost 350,000 dead on the Somme July/August 1916. Do you ever here us going on and on and ......."

 

In every school in Bracken Ridge, primary, high, public or private, there is some part of the school dedicated to the Anzac spirit. It may be a donated bench or tree, a mural or a bronze. It may be in the gardens, the hall, or the play area, but it is always highly visible.

 

From the earliest years our kids are taught, not only of those who suffered for our freedom, but also as to how this nation was 'born" of suffering.

 

Those who do not understand, hopefully are ignorant because they weren't taught in the same manner as my kids, but there are those, (I would hazard a guess), who remain ignorant, simply because they choose to be so.

 

I highlight in red the reasons why perhaps you consider it "bleating". It seems obvious to me, that as with so many posts in various forums of this site, problems arise for migrants because they still see "them and us" and never fully accept their new nation or consider themselves part of it. ..................something I find more sad than annoying.

[tracy123 5,093]

Lone Pine, Anzac Cove, Turkey

 

[thewebweazel 1,194]

Does anyone else get fed up with these australians continually bleating on about how we shafted them at Gallipoli, an event that took place nearly 100 years ago. Also they lost a total of around sixty thousand during the years 1914 to 1918 we lost 350,000 dead on the Somme July/August 1916. Do you ever here us going on and on and .......

Is there a perception in Australia that the ANZAC's got a raw deal and that it was Britains fault? If it is so, I can understand the OP irritation, no one enjoys faults of the past being rubbed in their faces continuously.

From the earliest years our kids are taught, not only of those who suffered for our freedom, but also as to how this nation was 'born" of suffering.

Now as can be seen from my earlier posts I'm still trying to work out mind set of Australians with regards to ANZAC day so I don't understand why you say that Australia was born out of Suffering?

It seems obvious to me, that as with so many posts in various forums of this site, problems arise for migrants because they still see "them and us" and never fully accept their new nation or consider themselves part of it. ..................something I find more sad than annoying.

I think that migrants are in a difficult situation, it would be great if we could go to a new country and immediately accept and feel part of it. You accent gives it away that you are not from the host country and you continuously get the question "Where are you from?". I find that even after 9 years in the UK I still get referred to as the "South African" even though I tell everyone that I'm a British Citizen. So it's difficult not to feel like a guest. I suppose it will only be my grand children that will feel truly Australian.

[belaroy 55]

Does anyone else get fed up with these australians continually bleating on about how we shafted them at Gallipoli, an event that took place nearly 100 years ago. Also they lost a total of around sixty thousand during the years 1914 to 1918 we lost 350,000 dead on the Somme July/August 1916. Do you ever here us going on and on and .......

 

 

The reason you have the freedom to post this thread is because thousands gave their lives selflessly. I believe Australia lost more soldiers per capita than any other commonwealth country other than Ireland.

The war heros don't ask for anything for their sacrifices, so the least any person with any form of morals can do is give a little respect for what has been given to them. Respect doesn't cost anything and doesn't hurt.

 

If you fell that way maybe you should go to work on ANZAC for normal pay

[Guest guest30038]

 

Now as can be seen from my earlier posts I'm still trying to work out mind set of Australians with regards to ANZAC day so I don't understand why you say that Australia was born out of Suffering?

 

As other posters have alluded to. It was the first time that Australians fought "as a nation" Previously they had fought as 'colonial troops"

 

I think that migrants are in a difficult situation, it would be great if we could go to a new country and immediately accept and feel part of it. You accent gives it away that you are not from the host country and you continuously get the question "Where are you from?". I find that even after 9 years in the UK I still get referred to as the "South African" even though I tell everyone that I'm a British Citizen. So it's difficult not to feel like a guest. I suppose it will only be my grand children that will feel truly Australian.

 

Even after 16 yrs I still get asked the same and I'm still affectionately known (by those who have known me a long time) as "the whingeing pom". It's how you perceive the questioning though, that will shape how you feel about your "belonging". I see the questioning as curiosity and genuine interest and in now way does it make me feel like a "guest" Just the opposite in fact. If they showed no interest, I would be less likely to feel accepted. I think it's a "natural reaction" to pose questions to those who you are acquainted with, that are from a different ethnic background. I do it all the time. It's my way of letting the person know that I am interested in them and their culture. To show no interest is discourteous (IMHO) it's simply a way of showing that you "recognise and accept" their difference

[heyyu 178]

''my father was with the 6th Division in WW2 and fought in North Africa and New Guinea".

so was mine [he was a pom]

[fish.01 2,566]

Is there a perception in Australia that the ANZAC's got a raw deal and that it was Britains fault? If it is so, I can understand the OP irritation, no one enjoys faults of the past being rubbed in their faces continuously.

 

...

 

Yes there is and I can understand the frustration as well. I do think though that if the OP looks into Australian culture a little deeper they may understand it better and not read it as the simple put down it might at first appear to be.

 

Like others have said each newer nation chooses a defining moment where they became a nation to themselves. In Australia that moment was Gallipoli. The sheer horror of it when reports came home to Australia of the casualties and then the reports of the Australian commanders calling out the faults of the British commanders was probably just the right mix at the time for the people to suddenly feel more Australian than British. It had to happen sometime and it was inevitable that mother Britain would bear the brunt of the separation in Australians minds - otherwise how would the separation occur?

 

We are also regularly told that British troops were subject to the same poor planning and suffered huge casualties at Gallipoli though some of us may not listen or be interested in that part. Like someone said, class comes into it. We weren't so much separating from Britain but just from the British ruling classes, from where the British command was drawn, in an effort to demonstrate the worthiness of having our own rulers. That process continues even today as it will until we become a republic and the separation is complete and Australia stands as an equal and fully independent nation next to the nation that started us on this journey.

[Guest Sir Les Patterson]

so was mine [he was a pom]

 

Small world ain't it. My dad was in the 16th Brigade. I remember him saying North Africa was a walk in the park compared to New Guinea (he was "mentioned in dispatches"). He was typical of his generation....when I got back from Vietnam he was so relieved I had come back safely but sill said that us young ones had it easy compared to him and his mates back in WW2 (tongue in cheek I might add). He always said what they could have done with some helicopter gunships and L1A1 SLRs back in his era. Geez, he was a good bloke.

[heyyu 178]

Small world ain't it. My dad was in the 16th Brigade. I remember him saying North Africa was a walk in the park compared to New Guinea (he was "mentioned in dispatches"). He was typical of his generation....when I got back from Vietnam he was so relieved I had come back safely but sill said that us young ones had it easy compared to him and his mates back in WW2 (tongue in cheek I might add). He always said what they could have done with some helicopter gunships and L1A1 SLRs back in his era. Geez, he was a good bloke.

My old man said they chased the Italians from one end of Nth Africa to the other then the Germans came and chased them back again.He also mentioned fighting the french foreign legion in either Syria or Lebonon.

I See your in Cairns,i lived in Redlynch for twenty years.My mates were in 2RAR

[thewebweazel 1,194]

On my ramblings around the internet I found an alternative view on Gallipoli which I found interesting

<style type="text/css"> <!-- @page { margin: 2cm } P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm } H1 { margin-bottom: 0.21cm } H1.western { font-family: "Times New Roman", serif } H1.cjk { font-family: "Droid Sans Fallback" } H1.ctl { font-family: "Lohit Hindi" } --> </style> Anzac Gallipoli gatherings misguided, Keating says

 

Antonette Collins

Updated October 31, 2008 07:02:00

 

 

Former prime minister Paul Keating says he thinks it is misguided for people to gather each year at Anzac Cove to commemorate the 1915 landings at Gallipoli.

Speaking at a book launch in Sydney, Mr Keating said Australia's decision to go to Gallipoli during World War I was influenced both by loyalties to Great Britain and a desire to become more independent.

He said while Australia wanted to prove itself to Great Britain, the nation also resented being dragged into a war which did not threaten it or its people.

He said he has never been to Gallipoli and never will because it is nonsense to think the nation was born again or redeemed there.

"The truth is that Gallipoli was shocking for us," he said.

"Dragged into service by the imperial government in an ill-conceived and poorly executed campaign, we were cut to ribbons and dispatched and none of it in the defence of Australia."

He said the sacrifice of soldiers was simply testament to the nation's lack of confidence and ambivalence about itself.

"Who were we and what we had become. If our sons suffered and died valiantly in a European war, such sacrifice was testament to the nation's self worth," he said.

"In some respects we are still at it; not at the suffering and the dying but still turning up at Gallipoli, the place where Australia was needily redeemed.

"Without seeking to simplify the then bonds of empire and the implicit sense of obligation or to diminish the bravery of our own men, we still go on as though the nation was born again or even, redeemed there. An utter and complete nonsense."

The RSL's national secretary, Major General Bill Crews, says there are many Australians who would disagree with Mr Keating's comments.

"He's correct in recording that we were there as part of the empire, when the British empire went to war Australia went to war, no matter where it was. That's why we were at Gallipoli and yes it was tragic in many senses but let's look at what happened in Gallipoli and what Australia did to prove itself and I think that's what's important to many Australians today," he said.

 

 

What this article seems to high light is that Australia has an unfortunate need to prove it's self worthy, which I find a bit bizarre.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I also found a cool website about the Gallipoli campaign from the ANZAC prospective http://www.abc.net.au/innovation/gallipoli/

[Guest guest30038]

On my ramblings around the internet I found an alternative view on Gallipoli which I found interesting

 

 

What this article seems to high light is that Australia has an unfortunate need to prove it's self worthy, which I find a bit bizarre.

 

 

 

It's Keating that's a bit bizarre. This is the bloke who put his arm around the Queen..............What a two-faced crawler. I haven't met a person yet, who has a good word about him.

[Guest guest37336]

It's Keating that's a bit bizarre. This is the bloke who put his arm around the Queen..............What a two-faced crawler. I haven't met a person yet, who has a good word about him.

 

I've got a good word for him Kev, but this is a family forum after all.:cool::wink:

[Paul1Perth 5,857]

Paul Keeting just loves to be controversial and also loves the sound of his own voice. Why do people bother asking his opinion on things? He had his time. I guess one of the reasons is he always has an opinion, usually guaranteed to put him in the press again for a few days.

 

I think he has a problem with getting old and fading away quietly.

[Guest siamsusie]

Does anyone else get fed up with these australians continually bleating on about how we shafted them at Gallipoli, an event that took place nearly 100 years ago. Also they lost a total of around sixty thousand during the years 1914 to 1918 we lost 350,000 dead on the Somme July/August 1916. Do you ever here us going on and on and .......

 

No I dont become fed up at all:mad: I am sorry it bores you!

[Guest guest37336]

It's Keating that's a bit bizarre. This is the bloke who put his arm around the Queen..............What a two-faced crawler. I haven't met a person yet, who has a good word about him.

 

A rather unknown 'fact' about this incident Kev is what the Queen whispered to him.

 

'Don't touch the cloth you feckwit'.:yes::biglaugh:

[fish.01 2,566]

On my ramblings around the internet I found an alternative view on Gallipoli which I found interesting

 

I also found a cool website about the Gallipoli campaign from the ANZAC prospective http://www.abc.net.au/innovation/gallipoli/

 

I'm not sure that he actually disagrees that much with the main line. Lines like "He said the sacrifice of soldiers was simply testament to the nation's lack of confidence and ambivalence about itself." was exactly the point. It was the symbol for the beginning of the change of this attitude. I agree with some of Keating's opinions and he is credited with some good decisions as prime minister but I don't follow the logic here between his assertions and conclusions.

 

What this article seems to high light is that Australia has an unfortunate need to prove it's self worthy, which I find a bit bizarre.

 

I find it totally normal. You see the great and powerful nations doing it all the time so a smaller developing nation like Australia would not be immune.

[fish.01 2,566]

A rather unknown 'fact' about this incident Kev is what the Queen whispered to him.

 

'Don't touch the cloth you feckwit'.:yes::biglaugh:

 

I was amazed at the time people were so upset about it....even some Australians. Bizarre.

[Guest guest37336]

I was amazed at the time people were so upset about it....even some Australians. Bizarre.

 

In all honesty Fish, I think more Aussies were upset than us poms, I was in OZ at the time and all hell broke loose. I 'think' it may have a lot to do with Keating himself, more than the 'actual' act.:wink:

 

Cheers Tony.

[thewebweazel 1,194]

I find it totally normal. You see the great and powerful nations doing it all the time so a smaller developing nation like Australia would not be immune.

 

Australia seems to do it more then most but it might be the fact that I'm more interested in Australia then other countries at the moment! I just hope in reality when I get to Oz it's not like that!

[fish.01 2,566]

In all honesty Fish, I think more Aussies were upset than us poms, I was in OZ at the time and all hell broke loose. I 'think' it may have a lot to do with Keating himself, more than the 'actual' act.:wink:

 

Cheers Tony.

 

He certainly upset a lot of the more conservative voters so that was a good thing. :biggrin:

[fish.01 2,566]

Australia seems to do it more then most but it might be the fact that I'm more interested in Australia then other countries at the moment! I just hope in reality when I get to Oz it's not like that!

 

I'm not sure what you are referring to so not sure. It certainly isn't the same as the stereotype sometimes painted of it when living in Britain if that is what you are basing it on.

[Guest guest37336]

Lets face it, Australia has a lot to be thankful for and to celebrate, as with a whole host of nations. I am also very aware that in the same breath it has got some 'history' that is not wholly positive,:no:

 

But it does rile me to a degree when I see the Aussies (most countries in fact) be accused of 'jingoism' and the like. Nothing wrong in my opinion in celebrating just 'being' is all.

 

As I mentioned in my first paragraph, Australia has some deeply concerning issues with it's past, and if truth were known these facets of Australia are OFTEN highlighted, so why not the more positive aspects as well.

 

Most Aussies are well aware of their past and what it has done and will do, and these facets are highlighted all the time, so in fairness and to balance it up, go for your life if you feel the need to celebrate what you have achieved, what others have sacrificed and what you can become.

 

Just a shame that many countries (UK included) ALWAYS knock themselves, yes us poms have a lot to be ashamed about, but we also have a lot to celebrate as well.

 

Cheers Tony.:wink: