Visa Capping - Senate Inquiry

[Jo_uktooz]

There is enough room in Australia for skilled migrants and refugees, and IMO the only thing holding back humane treatment of both these groups is incompetence on behalf of the minister for immigration who cant seem to be able to organise a country chook raffle if his performance in the portfolio over the last few years is anything to go by.

Australia is fast becoming a laughing stock on the world stage as regards it's treatment of asylum seekers and before long the same thing will be said about the way it processes applications for visas from the people that it needs to get here if it is to continue as a strong,vibrant economy over the next few years-the important thing is that whilst Australia becomes a laughing stock the visa applicants stuck on minister Evans rollercoaster of a visa application system aren't laughing-they are screaming about as loud as they would on any fun fair ride-only most of those only last a few minutes,unlike Senator Evans invention which can take years and costs a hell of a lot more than a couple of dollars,but it still makes you want to throw up!

 

J

[Alan Collett]

There is enough room in Australia for skilled migrants and refugees ... <snip>

 

 

 

All of them? Both current and future applicants? Without an adverse impact anywhere in Australia?

 

It is patently not a black and white issue of the nature you have described, and is - I suggest - an issue of drawing a line in the sand somewhere. That somewhere is a place where equity, fairness, and the interests of the Australia people converge.

 

Best regards.

[Jo_uktooz]

It is patently not a black and white issue of the nature you have described,

Maybe it isn't "black and white" but it surely doesn't have to be as grey as it currently is either Alan!

and as regards the interests of the Australian people well surely those interests are not currently being served by having an immigration minister who seems to change his mind as often as he changes his

socks.

And from an outsider looking in it appears that equity and fairness are two words that the minister

has "capped and ceased" from his dictionary.

[User Name]

Graemsay, you made good points but you have to realise that while the Federal Goverment is trying to fix a broken system, it is acting in the most unethical way right now by trying to acquire powers and intending to use it retrospectively.

 

Its like going to a restaurant, being given a menu, made to wait for say hour or 2 then being told that "no you cant have what you ordered, there is not enough ingredients to make what you ordered".

 

That is just a minor harmless comparison of what is about to unfold, if this bill goes through.

 

The current dillemma faced by Chris Evans is his own making. He openly tries to untangle the link between education and migration, then in education expos overseas he uses PR as bait to bring in overseas students. Is that ethical?

 

I honestly didnt like seeing dodgy colleges spring up, and dodgy students who have no intention of staying in the profession they were studying for. No one is to blame for this aside from the government, they are in charge of running DIAC and hence they take the blame when things screw up as is the case now.

 

Fact is, reforming GSM is good, but treating those who already applied with utter contempt is appalling and disgusting to say the least. Even a corrupt third world government wouldn't stoop this low.

[Farrukh Zeeshan]

Maybe it isn't "black and white" but it surely doesn't have to be as grey as it currently is either Alan!

and as regards the interests of the Australian people well surely those interests are not currently being served by having an immigration minister who seems to change his mind as often as he changes his

socks.

And from an outsider looking in it appears that equity and fairness are two words that the minister

has "capped and ceased" from his dictionary.

 

very well said:notworthy:

[Guest Jamie Smith]

Gill, I agree that it's easy to be smug and philosophical about things now I've got my visa, and particularly when the infamous September 23rd changes were of massive benefit.

 

But (and this is a big but), there are more people wanting to move to Australia than there are visas. And the government will put the country's economic self-interest ahead of the feelings of would-be migrants.

 

I'll stick my neck out and make a few predictions:

 

Not bad. Try these variations:

 

 

• 15,000 to 20,000 outstanding applications will get capped and ceased over the next year. Another 10,000 the next year as the Minister extends the capping and ceasing to non-hairdresser/chef occupations like "nec", adminsitration, office, sales, etc.

• In addition there is the natural extinction of cases for about 10,000 other souls on bridging visas that also cease to exist when the original skills application is deemed not to have been made. The Minsiter has very carefully and quietly avoided discussing that fact.

 

 

 

• Safe after the next election, heaven help us, the Minister shifts his eye and discretionary terminations to family visas, only allowing through the younger, healthier, wealthier.....

 

 

 

• The culls will initally focus on the less skilled applicants as being an easy political sell. The Minister might then have to cease some skilled applciations from Uk as collateral damage if he is not legally able to add in country of origin in his ceasing formula - too discrimniatory and unfair!

• Skilled independent migration will shrink to perhaps 7,000 as a realistic proportion of those with key skills on the SOL who still want to come to Australia, and some 50,000 other migrants will only get in if they can secure state or employer sponsorship.

• The standards for skilled migration in terms of education, experience and language skills will probably rise, and then fall when the goverment finds that they have largely killed the market and employers are screaming for staff. This is screaming is triggered by the exodus of the staff on bridging visas from otherwise good jobs who have made themselves indispensible to the employer (I might lose one of my key staff), and the screaming grows in volume with every other change to migration rules.:realmad:

• Lawyers will make a mint once the clear prospects for legal challenges appear out of the smoke and mist.

 

Making legal challenges against the new legislation is likely to be an expensive exercise and class actions will arise. Why use an agent? They might be the only ones able to cobble together a client base for a class action.

 

Everyone must still plan for an optimistic future and prepare emotionally for the worst. They key thing now is to create choice for oneself:

 

 

• Take another breath and perhaps a bit more time to up ones skills and qualifications to raise one's points score.

• If you don't already have state or employer sponsorship then find a way to secure this without spending 3 months away from family with no income looking for work in Aus.

• If you have a poor IELTS score then study for the exam, and try to get a decent pass. Don't take accommodation with people from your own country, don't only socialise with your countrymen, because above all things you will need to take every opportunity to converse in English and improve one's IELTS score.

• That goes for UK born people too, some of you have terrible English skills! :err:

 

[Guest Gollywobbler]

Gill, I agree that it's easy to be smug and philosophical about things now I've got my visa, and particularly when the infamous September 23rd changes were of massive benefit.

 

But (and this is a big but), there are more people wanting to move to Australia than there are visas. And the government will put the country's economic self-interest ahead of the feelings of would-be migrants.

 

I'll stick my neck out and make a few predictions:

 

 

• A large percentage of outstanding applications will get capped and ceased over the next year or two. Probably more than most people will expect, as the backlog represents 3 1/2 years of visas.

• That said, I suspect that the culls will focus on the less skilled applicants. Someone who's been to a visa mill college to study hairdressing is more likely to be rejected than someone with twenty years experience.

• Skilled independent migration will (virtually) cease, and migrants will require state or employer sponsorship.

• The standards for skilled migration in terms of education, experience and language skills will probably rise.

• The numbers of dependent, parent and other similar visas will fall.

• There will be a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth on Poms in Oz. :arghh:

Making legal challenges against the new legislation is likely to be an expensive exercise, and the very emotive appeals in this thread are likely to be ignored.

 

So my suggestion is to be proactive:

 

 

• Try to get enough points together to meet the requirements for a current 176 visa.

• If you don't already have state or employer sponsorship then try to secure this.

• If you have a poor IELTS score then study for the exam, and try to get a decent pass.

 

 

 

Hi Graemsay

 

I hear you and I think that both sides of an argument have an equal right to be heard.

 

However, I take issue with some of your points, being:

Try to get enough points together to meet the requirements for a current 176 visa.

And when they increase the Points test at the end of 2010, what will happen to the applicant then? Face being culled because he is less skilled than the one that you and the Minister both have in mind? The Bill would allow the Minister to do the cull but the only money that the Minister wants to refund to the hapless applicant is solely the money that he has paid to DIAC. With would be paid eventually, I expect, but the re-payments would not be quick and they would not include any interest for the money that the Aussie Government has "borrowed."

 

A large percentage of outstanding applications will get capped and ceased over the next year or two. Probably more than most people will expect, as the backlog represents 3 1/2 years of visas.

 

Absolutely right. Because the Bill is drafted in such vague, wide terms (which vagueness is deliberate) the Minister would be able to use his new powers to cull every single application that he turns out to have an allergy to.

 

What is worse is that it would not be the Minister who does the deciding. The one who actually decides which applications to cull and which ones to keep might have the wisdom of Solomon or he might be an appalling little Jobsworth who cannot see beyond the end of his own nose. The Bill would prevent the unfortunate applicant from complaining to the MRT if Jobsworth's judgement is wrong.

 

That said, I suspect that the culls will focus on the less skilled applicants. Someone who's been to a visa mill college to study hairdressing is more likely to be rejected than someone with twenty years experience.

 

I think that this is exactly what the Minister's own vague idealism plus his unseemly haste imagines is possible. However, DIAC's sole job is to process visa applications, deal with compliance issues etc. They do not have the experience, the expertise or the competence to decide which college was a "visa mill" and which one was not. So on what basis would the subjective value judgement concerning the college be made? If DIAC cannot be given criteria which are absolutely transparent, objectively fair and also challengeable by the applicants in case DIAC's civil servants make a mistake (which they regularly do. as proven by the number of appeals to the MRT in which DIAC's conclusions have been overturned by somebody with a more rational, dispassionate mind than the one that Jobsworth possessed.)

 

The Minister says vaguely that, "Honest, Guv. I have no intention of using these powers to attack elderly Parents." My attitude to that is, "Good. Then there won't be any objections from you when I amend this Bill of yours so as to make bluddy sure that you cannot attack any Parent applicants, will there? Re-drafting your Bill competently - a feature which the present draft lacks completely - will take more than a couple of weeks, though, so you will just have to shut up and wait whilst the rest of us sort this out properly."

 

The Minister says (I quote from the Second Reading Speech:)

In particular, the proposed amendments will allow the minister to make a legislative instrument to determine the maximum number of visas of a specified class or classes that can be granted in a financial year to visa applicants with specified characteristics. Similar to the current power, the amendments will also allow the minister to treat outstanding applications for the capped visa as never having been made.

Characteristics that may be specified include the occupation nominated by the applicant, or the time at which the applicant made their application. The characteristics will be objective, and relate to information that is provided to the department when an application for a visa is made.

 

ParlInfo - Title Details=

 

My attitude to that is, "This is simply extremely vague rhetoric. What 'characteristics'? Come on. Pony up and tell me what you think these exact 'characteristics' ought to be. If I think they are reasonable then I will specify these 'specified characteristics' in your new Bill, to make bluddy sure that you cannot be tempted to stray from the paths of virtue and righteousness, my old son."

 

But apart from spending 10 minutes on barking at the bloke to make sure that he gets the general idea, I would chuck his present Bill out in its entirety. I would tell him to take it away, re-draft it properly and bring it back when it contains at least 300 pages of tight, safe Law for me to read about, together with some coherent and adequate safeguards for the bloke with the money - the visa applicant - not this half-witted, mindless gibberish that the average kangaroo could have scribbled out in ten minutes flat.

 

If the Minister wants absolute certainty for the Australian Government alone then there is a very simple way to achieve it. HALT the migration program completely for everybody who does not already have a visa application in the system. Then treble all the quotas. That will get rid of the backlog in 12 months. With no future visa applicants to worry about, the Minister will have to put up with the applicants he already has. He'll love them all dearly and will want them all mightily when faced with that scenario and his various allergies will be cured overnight into the bargain.

 

In short, I would tell him to take this Bill of his and to go forth and multiply with it elsewhere. Elsewhere may be defined as "Out of my sight." Christmas Island is a luvverly place according to the Minister, so he might like to go there with his Bill?

 

Cheers

 

Gill

[SHANO7]

Or if the bill gets rejected I will gladly take a day trip over and shove it right up his ar%* !!!!

 

Excuse my French but the whole procedure is starting to do my head in

[George Lombard]

The Government has released the text of the Bill this morning at COMLAW Bills - Migration Amendment (Visa Capping) Bill 2010 () and apart from the text of the legislation, which one expects has been carefully drafted, there is a statement in the explanatory memorandum which repeats the suggestion that the government is moving from supply-driven to demand-driven skilled migration, and certainly that is a concept worth thinking carefully about.

 

The outline is as follows:

 

OUTLINE

 

 

The Migration Amendment (Visa Capping) Bill 2010 (the “Bill”) amends the Migration Act 1958 (the “Act”) to enable the Minister for Immigration and Citizenship (the “Minister”) to cap visa grants and terminate visa applications based on the class or classes of applicant applying for the visa.

 

 

In particular, the Bill will enable the Minister to make a legislative instrument to determine the maximum number of visas of a specified class or classes that may be granted in a financial year to visa applicants with specified characteristics, and treat outstanding applications for the capped visa as never having been made.

 

 

The proposed amendments are intended to address issues relating to the General Skilled Migration (GSM) visa program. A shift in Australia’s skilled migration program from demand-driven to supply-driven has created a situation where there is greater demand for GSM visas than there are places available in the program. There has also been a noticeable skew of GSM applicants who nominate certain occupations, making it increasingly difficult for the GSM program to deliver the broad range of skills the Australian economy requires. The proposed amendments will address these issues by allowing for effective and targeted management of the GSM program.

 

 

In addition, a large number of GSM visa applications (approximately 146 000), including applications made by both primary and secondary applicants, remain unfinalised. In some cases, the number of applicants for a GSM visa significantly exceeds the number of places available in the migration program each financial year. The number of places available in the migration program are set by government. To ensure that applicants are not waiting for long periods of time for their application to be finalised, the proposed amendments will allow visa applications to be terminated and the relevant visa application charge to be refunded to the applicant.

 

While the proposed amendments will address issues that have arisen in relation to the GSM visa program, the mechanism for capping and terminating visa applications and ceasing visas that is introduced by the proposed amendments could apply to all visa classes, subclasses or streams within a subclass. The purpose of providing a mechanism which is not limited to GSM is to provide the government with a tool for the targeted management of all aspects of the migration program which will be available as the need arises.

 

 

The Bill also includes consequential amendments to ensure that, where a bridging visa or a temporary visa would have ceased when a related substantive visa application has been either granted or refused, a bridging visa or temporary visa will also cease to be in effect if a substantive visa application is taken not to have been made due to a cap on visas.

 

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

George Lombard

[sedgecl]

oh here we go again !!! i am sick of people slagging off hairdressers and cooks there are alot of people that came here to train to do the job and still doing it !! do you think that it is fair that the people that work in the profession noninated e.g. hairdressing since completing college then get a 28 day notice ??? i am a hairdresser and i feel very badly done to followed the rules and worked in my job and i could just get thown out. i am very annoyed as when i applied jan 09 my job was in demand so what i dont understand why should i not get my PR, immigration took my money, my application and now look where following the rules get you !! no-where

 

Hi

 

I just wanted to support lost pom, by saying that some hairdressers (including myself) have only ever been a hairdreser. I have worked really hard to be where I am today, I own a salon and am an Assessor and am now working towards my teaching exams and was recently teaching at the local college. This is the only thing that I know and this is the skill that I am hoping to enter Oz with.

 

It does sadden me that people think that we will come into the country and not work in this trade again, it also saddens me that when I do receive my visa, that my family could get sent home through no fault of our own. Most people are giving up a lot to start a new life in Oz and support the country.

 

Sorry for the whinge, and good luck to all...Guess we are all in for a long wait.

 

Also, sorry if I have upset anybody....

[Guest ouseun]

So i would think that the Minster would use his power to cap and kill most applications that the jobs that were on the skills list .

If this is happening why could they not have been open from day one and said no more applications rather playing with peoples lives and loads could save money on all the extra's they require to make an application which they will not pay back if the kill your application :arghh:

[Graemsay]

• 15,000 to 20,000 outstanding applications will get capped and ceased over the next year. Another 10,000 the next year as the Minister extends the capping and ceasing to non-hairdresser/chef occupations like "nec", adminsitration, office, sales, etc.

• In addition there is the natural extinction of cases for about 10,000 other souls on bridging visas that also cease to exist when the original skills application is deemed not to have been made. The Minsiter has very carefully and quietly avoided discussing that fact.

 

Actually I think that you're being optimistic there Jamie.

 

At present the skilled migration queue stands at nearly 150,000, and these are being processed at a rate of around 40,000 per year.

 

I don't know if the figures given for the queue refers to the number of applications for a visa, or the number of applicants named in these applications, but a worst case scenario is that it'll take just over three years to clear the backlog. That's roughly consistent with DIAC's processing times for those not on the CSL.

 

So the question is what sort of processing time does DIAC want? My guess would be 12 to 18 months. That's consistent with capping and ceasing 70 to 100 thousand applications.

 

Like I said, I think that people are seriously underestimating how big the numbers will be.

[Jeffster]

Hi

 

I just wanted to support lost pom, by saying that some hairdressers (including myself) have only ever been a hairdreser. I have worked really hard to be where I am today, I own a salon and am an Assessor and am now working towards my teaching exams and was recently teaching at the local college. This is the only thing that I know and this is the skill that I am hoping to enter Oz with.

 

It does sadden me that people think that we will come into the country and not work in this trade again, it also saddens me that when I do receive my visa, that my family could get sent home through no fault of our own. Most people are giving up a lot to start a new life in Oz and support the country.

 

Sorry for the whinge, and good luck to all...Guess we are all in for a long wait.

 

Also, sorry if I have upset anybody....

 

A lot of hairdressers and cooks are getting upset at all the finger pointing, many of you are not in Australia and therefore have little exposure to what has been going on here the past few years, so let me explain;

 

Thousands of, mostly, Indian students came to Australia to study cooking and hairdressing at, mostly, shonky fly-by-night colleges in order to gain PR and, likely, never work in the industry again. This resulted in a huge number of applications for hairdressers and cooks - about 30-40,000 of the current applications I think - which has helped contribute (along with the GFC) to the current visa crisis.

 

Before anyone starts taking aim at me I want to point out this was not the fault of the people applying for the courses and then PR, who were following an entirely legitimate path to residency. It was the Government allowing dodgy College owners to rip off students, Australia's addiction to the $15 billion international student industry (it's second largest export after mining) and the Government allowing this link between studying and migrating to perpetuate and be exploited.

 

The mess that this created here has been horrific, not just in the area of immigration. Case in point, later today I will be making my SECOND submission to a Senate Inquiry in the space of 9 months that has involved International Student welfare.

 

Obviously, many legitimate hairdressers and cooks have been caught up in this and do intend to come here and work in those jobs permanently. So please don't take offence when people start talking about hairdressers and cooks getting the chop first.

 

Ironically, I think if you are an offshore applicant you will have a better chance of not getting the chop than those who came here to study.

[Ozmaniac]

The Government has released the text of the Bill this morning at COMLAW Bills - Migration Amendment (Visa Capping) Bill 2010 () and apart from the text of the legislation, which one expects has been carefully drafted, there is a statement in the explanatory memorandum which repeats the suggestion that the government is moving from demand-driven to supply-driven skilled migration, and certainly that is a concept worth thinking carefully about.

 

George Lombard

 

George, I read the outline as actually saying that while there has been "A shift in Australia’s skilled migration program from demand-driven to supply-driven", that isn't what the government wants and that the current moves are intended to shift the emphasis back to 'demand driven'. Perhaps I've misunderstood what you were getting at.

[Guest rajinmelb]

Hi All, few days back a girl comitted sucide after she came to know that she cannot apply for PR after 8th Feb 2010. she was so stressed that she din't even thought abt her few months old child and her husband, Don't know if the capping rule is passed how many more people will commit sucide because these people came here with a dream, some of them put everything on stake. God help those poor souls

[yc1ten]

Hi All, few days back a girl comitted sucide after she came to know that she cannot apply for PR after 8th Feb 2010. she was so stressed that she din't even thought abt her few months old child and her husband, Don't know if the capping rule is passed how many more people will commit sucide because these people came here with a dream, some of them put everything on stake. God help those poor souls

 

How sad if it is true. :confused:

 

I guess u r in Melb?. I have never heard this news.

 

GOD BLESS HER SOUL

[Guest rajinmelb]

yes its true, it happened in Melbourne and it was never reported as a main headline

[Farrukh Zeeshan]

Hi All, few days back a girl comitted sucide after she came to know that she cannot apply for PR after 8th Feb 2010. she was so stressed that she din't even thought abt her few months old child and her husband, Don't know if the capping rule is passed how many more people will commit sucide because these people came here with a dream, some of them put everything on stake. God help those poor souls

 

Can you please tell me the source of the news? When and where this incident happened exactly, so that I can search it on Google.

 

Thanks

[Ozzieland]

Hi

 

I just wanted to support lost pom, by saying that some hairdressers (including myself) have only ever been a hairdreser. I have worked really hard to be where I am today, I own a salon and am an Assessor and am now working towards my teaching exams and was recently teaching at the local college. This is the only thing that I know and this is the skill that I am hoping to enter Oz with.

 

It does sadden me that people think that we will come into the country and not work in this trade again, it also saddens me that when I do receive my visa, that my family could get sent home through no fault of our own. Most people are giving up a lot to start a new life in Oz and support the country.

 

Sorry for the whinge, and good luck to all...Guess we are all in for a long wait.

 

Also, sorry if I have upset anybody....

 

I agree, I think they should look at the number of years the person has put in their respective profession before assuming that it is a profession that has just been obtained just for PR. I am sure that a person with so many years of experience will definitely fulfill the skill requirement of the country.

[John Gilfillan]

A lot of hairdressers and cooks are getting upset at all the finger pointing, many of you are not in Australia and therefore have little exposure to what has been going on here the past few years, so let me explain;

 

Thousands of, mostly, Indian students came to Australia to study cooking and hairdressing at, mostly, shonky fly-by-night colleges in order to gain PR and, likely, never work in the industry again. This resulted in a huge number of applications for hairdressers and cooks - about 30-40,000 of the current applications I think - which has helped contribute (along with the GFC) to the current visa crisis.

 

Before anyone starts taking aim at me I want to point out this was not the fault of the people applying for the courses and then PR, who were following an entirely legitimate path to residency. It was the Government allowing dodgy College owners to rip off students, Australia's addiction to the $15 billion international student industry (it's second largest export after mining) and the Government allowing this link between studying and migrating to perpetuate and be exploited.

 

The mess that this created here has been horrific, not just in the area of immigration. Case in point, later today I will be making my SECOND submission to a Senate Inquiry in the space of 9 months that has involved International Student welfare.

 

Obviously, many legitimate hairdressers and cooks have been caught up in this and do intend to come here and work in those jobs permanently. So please don't take offence when people start talking about hairdressers and cooks getting the chop first.

 

Ironically, I think if you are an offshore applicant you will have a better chance of not getting the chop than those who came here to study.

 

 

Offence already taken.

 

Thanks for cheering up all the Cooks, Chefs and Hairdressers on here mate.

[SHANO7]

Is there any way of finding out how many of the Haidressers that HAVE lodged are offshore as opposed to Onshore ?

 

My reason for asking the question is if there is a cap imposed what is likely to be the figure as obviously states do require Haidressers and WA need it statewide. So lets say he caps Hairdressers at 5000 (wishful thinking !!) if WA and Queensland require the most would these states get say 30-35% of the cap i.e would the proportion of visas from the capped amount be relative to the actual amount each state requires.

 

I think this could be a way of ensuring that those people sponsored by a state get a visa because that state has looked through that applicants file and said " That is an applicant we would like to sponsor based on his/her application and experience and TRA pass "

 

I dont know if thats more my thoughts or wishes

Shane

[Guest paulandtara]

I would hope that would be the case Shane, however the 'leaked' WA SMP list doesn't have hairdressers on it despite there being overwhelming evidence of a state wide demand. The while thing stinks to be honest, it's obvious that there is a goverment vendetta against hairdressers so who knows what they'll come up with next.

I read a post saying that with regards to the capping they might use English language ability along with age criteria to pick and choose which applications they wish to grant visas to.

Hopefully things will becme clearer on July 1st.....

[SHANO7]

Hi Paul & Tara

 

I did read about the age thing aswell. My wife and I are both 37 and our daughter is 16. What would they class as to old. I dread to think !!

 

Shane

[Guest paulandtara]

Well hopefully not 37, I'm only a few years off that! But seriously I think if they want experience then that comes with age, you're still young enough to have a long working life in Australia but 'old' enough to have the experience.

[crispysince70]

Well hopefully not 37, I'm only a few years off that! But seriously I think if they want experience then that comes with age, you're still young enough to have a long working life in Australia but 'old' enough to have the experience.

 

 

Lol @ 25 being only a few years off of 37.

 

I wish :biggrin:!