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Guest Brokenhearted

Between a rock and a hard place

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Guest Brokenhearted

My partner and I and children (I have just had a baby) have an application in for a visa to Australia. When we first applied the plan was to go to Oz for five years or so, but subsequently my partner has decided he wants to go for life.

I thought I would be able to return to the UK to live at any time (after the five years agreed with my partner), but sadly research has thrown up the Hague Convention which means that despite the fact we are all British, I would not be able to return with my children unless I had my partner's permission which I do not think he would give. My partner is determined to go with or without me and the children. I am now in two minds what to do - on the one hand there is the australian dream of sunshine, beaches and a new start after a turbulent few years where we have not had a lot of luck, but there is the real risk of losing my children if either the relationship does not work out or if I am so unhappy I want to come home or if the rellies are ill etc. On the other hand I could stay in grey Britain with a new life as a single mother, trying to explain to my first born why she does not have a Daddy anymore, but at least I get to keep my children. I will not be able to get any financial help from my children's father as he will be abroad nor obviously any emotional or practical help with school runs and all the things to do with bringing up children. I worry about the children not having their Dad and whether they will blame me in the future for them not going to Australia/being a family.

The visa is imminent and I will need to remove my name and the children's names from the visa which is tortuous as it is so final in terms of the Ozzie dream, my relationship with a man I love so much, and the children having their father around (please excuse the emotion but I have recently given birth and am inevitably feeling more vulnerable and I am very upset at the moment). Whichever way I go, I will wonder whether I have made a mistake? And it will be too late - if I choose to stay in UK now, I wouldn't have enough points if I reapplied in the future to join my partner, if I go to OZ and it all goes pear-shaped, I can't keep my children. If only I had known about the Hague Convention before applying for a visa, or if only the law were not so strict....but if I had absolute trust in my partner like obviously the rest of you have, perhaps I would not be in this predicament at all. By the way, my partner will not sign a legal agreement to say I could keep the children.

Comments or advice please.

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Guest guest30085
My partner and I and children (I have just had a baby) have an application in for a visa to Australia. When we first applied the plan was to go to Oz for five years or so, but subsequently my partner has decided he wants to go for life.

I thought I would be able to return to the UK to live at any time (after the five years agreed with my partner), but sadly research has thrown up the Hague Convention which means that despite the fact we are all British, I would not be able to return with my children unless I had my partner's permission which I do not think he would give. My partner is determined to go with or without me and the children. I am now in two minds what to do - on the one hand there is the australian dream of sunshine, beaches and a new start after a turbulent few years where we have not had a lot of luck, but there is the real risk of losing my children if either the relationship does not work out or if I am so unhappy I want to come home or if the rellies are ill etc. On the other hand I could stay in grey Britain with a new life as a single mother, trying to explain to my first born why she does not have a Daddy anymore, but at least I get to keep my children. I will not be able to get any financial help from my children's father as he will be abroad nor obviously any emotional or practical help with school runs and all the things to do with bringing up children. I worry about the children not having their Dad and whether they will blame me in the future for them not going to Australia/being a family.

The visa is imminent and I will need to remove my name and the children's names from the visa which is tortuous as it is so final in terms of the Ozzie dream, my relationship with a man I love so much, and the children having their father around (please excuse the emotion but I have recently given birth and am inevitably feeling more vulnerable and I am very upset at the moment). Whichever way I go, I will wonder whether I have made a mistake? And it will be too late - if I choose to stay in UK now, I wouldn't have enough points if I reapplied in the future to join my partner, if I go to OZ and it all goes pear-shaped, I can't keep my children. If only I had known about the Hague Convention before applying for a visa, or if only the law were not so strict....but if I had absolute trust in my partner like obviously the rest of you have, perhaps I would not be in this predicament at all. By the way, my partner will not sign a legal agreement to say I could keep the children.

Comments or advice please.

 

:hug: oh dear what a not very nice place to be in at the moment. Youve just had a baby so of course your emotions will be all over the place. Only you will know what is best for you and your little ones but you have done the right thing by getting it out in 'the open' even if its just on a forum.

 

I would just say though that even though you love your OH very much - the fact that he is willing to go to Australia without you or the children would be ringing alarm bells in my head. You really do need to think long and hard about if you could cope being on the other side of the world and not having the legal permissions to leave with your children. Your husband needs to really be looking at his wife's and children's needs before his own Im afraid this time.

 

Sorry cant help more but others will be along who have been in a similar position.

 

Best wishes to you hun xxxxx:hug:

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Well I am a bit lost for words ot be honest. I really don't know anything about the law or the Hague convention so am not going to even try and comment on that. Just wanted to respond to you as that post made me feel very sad.

 

:hug: to you.

 

I don't even want to give you any advice, because I don't know you or him. But I was deeply troubled by a man who would go to Australia anyway, with or without you or the children and after you have just had a baby. I know a lot of people on here also dream and have dreamt of Australia but that just seems like a case of wrong priorities.

 

My husband is more enthusiastic than I am, but I know if I say no I don't want to do it he will accept it ... and we don't have any children never mind a new baby. So I am puzzled ... perhaps your hormones are all over the place and you are just thinking the worst. I say that, because I can scarcely believe he would be this mean.

 

Good luck to you, look after yourself and make sure your interests are protected before you do anything.

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'Pumpkin' has pretty much said what I was thinking & going to post....:yes:

 

The only other thing I could add, is that I am curious to know why you planned to come back after 5 years? Surely your children (or at least the baby) would have just settled into school etc....

 

I wish you well & Congratulations on your new arrival....:cute:

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Guest thebexta

Don't apologise for your emotion, there's plenty on here! Congrats on new baby, mmm, lots of sleep dep and riotous hormones to keep you super emotional for a while yet w/o your difficult scenario. I really feel for you.

Have no answers for you, obviously, but a couple of thoughts - if your partner is so self-motivated, i.e more concerned for his own welfare than that of his ptnr and child (you say he will go with or w/o you), can you be sure of his support if/when u get here? You mention school runs etc, finances, but what if his desire to live the life he wants means he can't or won't help you even if you're here. Going ONLY by what you have said, his committment to you doesn't seem to be very strong if it exists at all. I'm sorry to say this cos I think this is the last thing you want to hear being so in love with him, and as you say, with him being your baby's father. The Hague Convention is news to me, I shudder to think of not being able to take my kids with me, and for that reason I would say "err on the side of caution". If you get here, if he takes off, if it all goes completely pear shaped btwn u, will you be on your tod? How would u manage being a single mum in a strange country with no relo's to call on? and it's when you've got kids that you find you need ure family heaps (if you get along!). I miss my family so much, it's a constant ache that they don't know my kids, that my kids don't know them, skype is great but you can't hug down a cable. And if the original plan was to only come for 5 years may I ask why? Were you anticipating not liking it here enough to stay permanently? If that's still the way you feel, perhaps best not risk losing your kids.

 

On the other hand ........... u might find your OH is the one wanting to return to the UK after 5 yrs! As I was reading elsewhere on this site tonite, its not all about beaches and sun, if it was you'd want to be wearing some pretty heavy sunscreen :D

 

If you do decide to come, stay tuned on this site, there's a lot of support around for PIO's. Enjoy your bub, they just grow too too fast xx

 

ps. do you HAVE to take your name off the visa anyway? couldn't u let OH go ahead of you and possibly follow later? might give you breathing space to think

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Guest Brokenhearted

Thanks for all posts so far. Cartertucker, my partner originally said five years as he wanted to get away from the CSA who were expecting him to pay a lot of money for his first child by a previous relationship, and apparently in five years time this child would reach an age whereby he would not have to pay anymore. He said he would still pay something but not as much, but I don't know if he would or not. He said we couldn't afford to buy a house here in the UK because of the CSA, but said we could in Australia. That wasn't the only reason - house prices were high here and we liked the idea of a new life in the sun, but perhaps it serves me right for going along with the visa which he perhaps wanted in order to escape some responsibilities to his first family (the irony does not escape me). But as far as schools go, I guess if we had both liked our new life, I thought we would discuss it then and then stay in Oz a bit longer if all were happy, but I did not see it being forever.

 

Pumpkin, it is definite my partner wants to go, he will be gone in less than two months and I am truly devastated and cannot stop crying, but am trying to be as strong as possible for my children plus I need to ensure they have a roof over their heads etc, all very difficult with a newborn.

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Guest VickyMel

Hi

I also can't help as I know nothing on the laws surrounding this and echo some of the sentiments of Pumpkin and Kelly above.

 

From several posts I have read on here it is also quite common for people to get a load of emotions about am I doing the right thing when it is getting close and you are about to make the move - even before you get a new baby hormone rush!

 

But was wondering if you might look to see if there might be some equivalent of the prenuptial agreement that you and your husband could put together stating that if you are not happy to stay after x amount of time and if he did not wish to return that it was agreed that you would have custody of the kids and could return??

 

I am not sure if they would consider children in that sort of manner - or whether it would even hold up at a later date if you wanted to remove the kids (as the courts would relook at what is in the kids best interests at that time - so probably at most it would show what your hubby had agreed to at the time).

 

Good luck I hope it works out for you and that someone with real expertise in this subject can come and give you some advice.

You never know you may love Oz and your hubby want to return to the UK!

 

VickyMel

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my partner originally said five years as he wanted to get away from the CSA who were expecting him to pay a lot of money for his first child by a previous relationship, and apparently in five years time this child would reach an age whereby he would not have to pay anymore. .

 

 

Australia have their own CSA and it's linked to the UK, they can enforce orders for payment - so he might get over there and find he still has to pay

 

i'm sorry to say but, alarm bells should be going off big time


It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me.

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Guest sarahbunny

hi there, i just wanted to quickly say im so sorry about your situation.

 

However, UK and Australia has child support ties, therefore you can make a appeal with your child support agency in the UK to chase down funds. As long as you have his name, and some sort of contact details like address, his employer or phone numbers - they will try their hardest to make him fork out for child support.

 

I really hope this is a tiny bit of light down the tunnel for you and i wish you the best of luck

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Guest julesey

I am on the other side of your situation... I have been here fiveyears ( and a half ) and am now separated and you are correct under the Hague convention your partner needs to give permission for you to leave ( this applies in pretty much all western countries)

 

If you come to oz with him ... you would have a fight on your hands to go back but I wonder when he has CSA on his back here and for the child in the UK will he fight you or concede?

 

If he comes alone ..... and you follow you could say he set a precedent of leaving you in the lurch but he might maintain he came ahead to forge the life.

 

I would love to talk to you in private and help you with your thoughts..... I am alone here with no relos and as one of the people said , your heart does ache for the kids to have hugs from their grandparents but by the same token I think single motherhood would still be harder for me in the UK.

 

There is no such thing as a pre nuptial agreement, they arent worth very much...

Just to shed another light on the matter... could your partner be trying hard to convince you of this but bluffing because he can feel you are on the verge of cold feet about coming... a pretty silly gamble on his behalf as he has cast a lot of doubt about the committment you have.

 

I am happy to listen and to share my experiences with you... my story is so similar, a little more complicated but it is what it is and I just think every day the sun shines and my kids are healthy then I can be grateful ..... the ultimate plan will be revealed to me!!!

 

all the best with your decision ( listen to your heart and you will know what you want to do , just dont be clouded by advice, truly listen to how you feel about him and the dream you both began)

Julie

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Guest jayde

Congratulations on your baby. What a difficult emotional place to be in, you are right to consider the hormones after a new baby do mess our thinking up a bit, and I am wondering if there is someone you can approach for counselling.

 

Someone outside who can help you to make the best decision. I feel for you, it must be overwhelming to feel you have to make a decision in such a brief amount of time. Breathing time sounds like a great idea.

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I feel very sorry for your predicament but have to be harsh and say do you really love this man. Sounds very controlling and I don't think I would want to go to an unfamiliar place with someone I was so unsure about.

 

The very fact he looks to get out of paying for his first child would ring warning bells for me.

 

I thought that children had to be supported by their parents wherever the parent lived, I seem to recollect that they check this sort of thing at the airport.

 

Its true that both parents have to consent to move a child from a jurisdiction so I would have to be very sure what I was doing.

 

I think you have to seriously think about what you want and what is best for your children. Having two parents is not always the best option for some.


Petals

:ssign15:taking no prisoners :wink:

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You've got some pretty good advice here so :hug::hug:

 

My alarm bells would go off I'm afraid - there sounds like a lot of controlling going on there and although you love him very much I dont see much evidence of the reverse - just someone trying to avoid his obligations to another family (wont work, the Aus and UK CSA talk to each other as others have said).

 

Dont worry about grey sky Britain - I'll bet if you look out the window you will see a riot of colour and if that is where you have the best support network then I would be sticking with it. I speak as one trapped in Australia and not liking it (not because of kids though) - if you cannot escape it makes it very hard to live here and raising kids here when you dont have that support network takes a lot of independence and self sufficiency and a strong relationship.

:hug:

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Guest Brokenhearted

ps. do you HAVE to take your name off the visa anyway? couldn't u let OH go ahead of you and possibly follow later? might give you breathing space to think

 

I think I have to take my name off the visa, to allow his to go ahead, I don't think they can delay mine and the children's, unfortunately.

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Guest Brokenhearted
I am on the other side of your situation... I have been here fiveyears ( and a half ) and am now separated and you are correct under the Hague convention your partner needs to give permission for you to leave ( this applies in pretty much all western countries)

 

If you come to oz with him ... you would have a fight on your hands to go back but I wonder when he has CSA on his back here and for the child in the UK will he fight you or concede?

 

If he comes alone ..... and you follow you could say he set a precedent of leaving you in the lurch but he might maintain he came ahead to forge the life.

 

I would love to talk to you in private and help you with your thoughts..... I am alone here with no relos and as one of the people said , your heart does ache for the kids to have hugs from their grandparents but by the same token I think single motherhood would still be harder for me in the UK.

 

There is no such thing as a pre nuptial agreement, they arent worth very much...

Just to shed another light on the matter... could your partner be trying hard to convince you of this but bluffing because he can feel you are on the verge of cold feet about coming... a pretty silly gamble on his behalf as he has cast a lot of doubt about the committment you have.

 

I am happy to listen and to share my experiences with you... my story is so similar, a little more complicated but it is what it is and I just think every day the sun shines and my kids are healthy then I can be grateful ..... the ultimate plan will be revealed to me!!!

 

all the best with your decision ( listen to your heart and you will know what you want to do , just dont be clouded by advice, truly listen to how you feel about him and the dream you both began)

Julie

 

It would be great to talk to you to hear your story, thank you. I am still not quite sure, but everyone's posts have helped a lot. Do you mean pm or skype or what? Sorry am new to this.

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Guest Brokenhearted
Hi

I also can't help as I know nothing on the laws surrounding this and echo some of the sentiments of Pumpkin and Kelly above.

 

From several posts I have read on here it is also quite common for people to get a load of emotions about am I doing the right thing when it is getting close and you are about to make the move - even before you get a new baby hormone rush!

 

But was wondering if you might look to see if there might be some equivalent of the prenuptial agreement that you and your husband could put together stating that if you are not happy to stay after x amount of time and if he did not wish to return that it was agreed that you would have custody of the kids and could return??

 

I am not sure if they would consider children in that sort of manner - or whether it would even hold up at a later date if you wanted to remove the kids (as the courts would relook at what is in the kids best interests at that time - so probably at most it would show what your hubby had agreed to at the time).

 

Good luck I hope it works out for you and that someone with real expertise in this subject can come and give you some advice.

You never know you may love Oz and your hubby want to return to the UK!

 

VickyMel

 

Thanks for pointing out that it's common to get cold feet when the move is getting closer, as it has made me think, but what's really getting to me is that the Hague Convention kicks in as soon as you touch down in Australia, there doesn't seem to be any six months or twelve months afterwards about it, so there's no time to see if I might like it. With hindsight, I should have done a reccy beforehand. Plus I really did not expect the law to be so strict, I wouldn't want to buy a house or start a job without knowing I could sell the house or leave the job if I wanted to, but then as I 've said before, with the right partner and trust between you, the Hague Convention should not matter. In terms of the legal agreement, from what I can gather the only way this could work would be to cancel the visa, go out on a tourist type visa, and then if I wanted to stay, I would have to start again with a proper visa, which would take time and money! In any case, my partner will not sign anything or even discuss it!

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I think I have to take my name off the visa, to allow his to go ahead, I don't think they can delay mine and the children's, unfortunately.

 

 

You don't have to remove your names. If you leave them on you will be granted the visa BUT if you don't go to OZ in the specified time (usually 12 months from date of medicals- the validation period) your visa will no longer be valid but if he goes his will be.

 

In other words you can all be on the visa grant but not all of you need to go to Oz. You not going will not stop him from going.


So many wineries ......so little time :yes:

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Guest DOUBLE BOGEY

Hey Brokenhearted,

 

I read your post and understand where you are right now as My Wife and I are in the process of metally adjusting to a new life proposed!!.

 

A couple of things that may help you. Firstly, your Husband may seem to "Controlling" you but I suspect that as he has committed to making a new life for YOU ALL in Australia he is probably sh***g himslelf that he may end up alone, with your combined dreams in tatters.

 

People say stuff in the heat of the moment to try and make others understand how resolute they feel. I have been married for 24 years, and several times in our marriage strong views have had to be expressed, sometimes ultimatums and often tantrums just to get things moving along.

 

You need to decide if you love this man enough to follow him across the globe. If you do, take a deep breath and get going cos life my friend is just to short to sit and wait it out. This is not a rehearsal, you only get one shot at it and there are no gaurentees. The best you can do is place your trust in the one you love, keep your family together and start looking forward to a brave new life in a fantastic Country.

 

We men are not very good at expressing our feelings or supporting those we love when they are suffering, and you may just be suffering from a little bout of baby blues (not depression - thats a term invented by health care professionals just to make you feel inadequate).

 

I am not a religious person but I remember well from my wedding service the words of Saint Paul in his letter to the corinthians. "There are three great virtues, FAITH, HOPE AND LOVE and the greatest of these is LOVE"

 

With all the crap life throws at you, if you have the love of a man and you love him, that will be enough wherever you end up.

 

Good luck.

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Guest chris955

I'm sorry but if I was in your situation there is no way in the world I would follow this man to the other side of the planet. He is trying to escape his responsibilities to another child and has told you he will go regardless of your decision.

It is quite possible you wont settle here as many don't and then you will quite literally be trapped somewhere you don't want to be.

My advice for what it's worth is stay were you have a family network and find a man capable and willing to commit to you and your child.

The sunshine and beaches wont make you happy in the long-term.

Again I am sorry to be frank but I see this as an untenable situation to be honest.

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Hi

Why not let him go on his own, just say to him I want you to be established before I come over with the kids, this is what we did, my husband came first for 4 months Then when he is out of the picture see how you feel a couple of months down the line.

 

Your doubts must be telling you something, especially the reason he is coming so he can get away from the CSA what a man. You have your children now, they need a happy mum, if you have a good family around you and support network, please think very carefully, you will be totally dependent on him for everything, and the days can get very lonely in oz with young kids, especially in the beginning, when your oh will be at work and you are home all day.

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Guest Brokenhearted
You don't have to remove your names. If you leave them on you will be granted the visa BUT if you don't go to OZ in the specified time (usually 12 months from date of medicals- the validation period) your visa will no longer be valid but if he goes his will be.

 

In other words you can all be on the visa grant but not all of you need to go to Oz. You not going will not stop him from going.

 

Thanks, that's really useful to know. That would give me a breathing space to see how well the children and I cope on our own and how we all feel, the only thing it would stop me from doing, is going out there to see if I like it for a couple of months this summer before my child starts school in the UK (due to the Hague Convention kicking in as soon as a visa is validated).

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also other posters have mentioned that they have had to put a non-migrating child on their visa application, have you had to do that. you haven't mentioned this that's why I am asking? he seems to be denying this child exists which sounds very scary to me, just my opinion and good luck in what you decide to do


Hoping to move to OZ one day!!::daydreaming:

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OOh not spotted that one!!

 

Yes he should have included his other child in the application as a non migrating dependent and that child would require a medical (even though not going to OZ) They are the rules.


So many wineries ......so little time :yes:

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Guest Brokenhearted
also other posters have mentioned that they have had to put a non-migrating child on their visa application, have you had to do that. you haven't mentioned this that's why I am asking? he seems to be denying this child exists which sounds very scary to me, just my opinion and good luck in what you decide to do

 

Yes, my partner did have to put his child from a previous relationship down on the visa as non-migrating. The mother refused the medical and the case officer accepted this (it was proven through solicitor letters). The only thing remaining on our/his application is the medical for our new baby. I have managed to delay this whilst I think about my two possible choices and what is best for the children (and thanks to everyone on PIO for their helpful comments), but I can't delay it any longer or my partner will not be able to go to Oz (well, he would probably find a way to go even if I also refused). It's his choice to go anyway so I guess next week I have to take three of us off the visa, and allow the medical, then the dream for three of us is truly over.

My poor daughter can't comprehend that Daddy is going to Australia (I had to tell her he might to prepare her but not frighten her, even though he will), she thinks it's a joke or that she can visit him any day of the week. That's one reason why I've really been struggling to make the right choice. We are not married, we are engaged but nothing has come of it, and to be honest, I would not be surprised if he soon had a new family in Australia!!

By the way, is there any risk to me in allowing the medical as my partner is cross with his first child's mother and says he is going to get the daughter he never sees out to Australia to live when she is sixteen as revenge on the mother, and he has told me that it won't be long before our children can choose who they want to live with?

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It sounds like your OH is a right one and playing mind games with you. I f he was a committed man, you are engaged after all, he wouldnt be playing these games with you. I am in a situation that in a few more years we will need to make another life changing decision (once we are in Aus, its got to do with the future mother in-law) and we have spoken about it and its a decision we will make together. He is being very self centered and not very fair on you. It sounds like he is a very shallow man and only in it for himself and is not worried about what others think. Hence him trying to get away from child support for his first child and I bet he would do the same for you.

 

Do what your heart says and try not to over analyse your decision once you have made it. You will have to make a decision one way or another and only you can do that.

 

Good luck

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