Peter Maroti Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Hello everyone! Just a little question you might help me with, i´ve searched these forums high and low but no one seems to have asked this before... I´m wondering about the skill assessment process when it comes to people with creative jobs, say photographers, webdesigners, illustrators, entertainers, or as in my case; architectural illustrator or visualiser as it´s called sometimes. Trades that are based more upon talent, skill and experience, rather than academic studies and diplomas. People who find jobs and recognition based on their portfolios, job-credits, personality and experience, and where employers usually don´t really care about what schools you attended and for how long, as long as you are really good at what you do and your references show it. This can´t be THAT unusual, right? Or am i the first hopeful emigrant to Oz who´s in these categories? Could it really be that unfair, that a talented, experienced, recognised and respected person in any of the above trades (and there are quite a few more), who could probably easily find work down under for that matter, simply must rely on finding a sponsoring company, as the assessing authorities ONLY care about skills with diplomas? I have a two year advanced vocational education in my trade from a few years back, but i suspect it´s not nearly enough to impress the authorities, often many of these kinds of occupations don´t even have higher forms of education, you just have to "go out and start working with it". Just wondering if someone could shed some light upon this for me, as i´m about to start the first steps towards the application process, and this part of of the puzzle, which i know is the most important part, the skills assessment that is, really worries me and there is no information anywhere to be found on the matter. Maybe you guys have some info out there. Thanx! -Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest proud2beaussie Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Hi Peter, Perhaps a good first step would be to contact a company in Australia that specialises in your field? I found this company- Gold Coast Architectural Illustrators, Fine Artworks, Surf Photography and Greeting Cards, Envision Illustration using Google. Perhaps send them an email and ask if they have any advice for people in your situation. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydee Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Hi Peter, Just to let you know that you are not the only person going through this as we are in a similar position. My husband is a Graphic Artist, doing artwork and animations for computer games, tv ads, music videos etc. He has 17 years experience (most of this at a senior level), has a portfolio and great references and has even written and had published 2 books on the subject but has no degree! This has never been an issue before and he is feeling so frustrated about it. After talking to migration agents, we have been told effectively that all his experience means diddley squat and that the only way we are likely to get in is by securing an Employer Sponsored Visa.It seems absolutely crazy that there appears to be no way of assessing these sorts of careers where, the reality is, qualifications are almost secondary to the skills someone possesses. We are still investigating other avenues but not having much luck at the moment. Perhaps we could share any info we get that may be of use? Anyway, good luck in your search! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Hello Peter Welcome to Poms in Oz. Are you the guy who produces the water colour of what the finished housing estate, office building or whatever will look like? (The guy who gives me hope when I need wellies to tramp round nothing but mud, foundations etc?) If so, do you also build the scale model in the glass showcase? You say: I have a two year advanced vocational education in my trade from a few years back, but i suspect it´s not nearly enough to impress the authorities, often many of these kinds of occupations don´t even have higher forms of education, you just have to "go out and start working with it". Please tell me more about this qualification. What is its name and by what means did you obtain it? How long have you been doing this work for? Please see this list: A-Z Occupations List - Australian Skills Recognition Information Interpreting it requires lateral thinking in many cases. It also requires careful study of the ASCO Code which is the detailed, authoritative description of the occupations listed in the ASRI list above. ASCO is here: 1220.0 - Australian Standard Classification of Occupations (ASCO) Second Edition, 1997= It seems to me that it might be possible to say that you are an Architectural Associate? 1220.0 - Australian Standard Classification of Occupations (ASCO) Second Edition, 1997 Don't worry too much about the requirement for an AQF Diploma or its overseas equivalent. The Diploma does not have to be directly relevant to your work. The idea of it is only that it represents a form of tertiary education. AQF Diplomas can be obtained if needed or your existing qualification might be enough: Orion Training and Performance Management | Brisbane Training and Managment The AQF Diploma in Business Admin from Orion is all done by distance learning on-line, costs $1,520 and takes most people no more than two to three months. Vetassess is the skills authority for this occupation and all that they do is check to see whether or not the actual qualification held is either an AQF Diploma or its overseas equivalent. In the latter case they merely consult the Country Education Profile for the UK. You can buy a copy for $45 AUD if you wish (around £30.) Country Education Profiles Have a look at the sample for the United Arab Emirates. It simply lists all their Colleges etc, says what qualifications these colleges award and says what the AQF equivalents of those qualifications are. The whole thing has been reduced to "monkey see, monkey do" so that poorly paid civil servants and quasi civil servants can do the day to day work. I have a friend on here. I have not seen his CV myself. From what he told me about his job during a chat on the phone, I earmarked him as a "Computer Wizard" which is the sum total of my knowledge about IT. I am not a migration agent and even if I were I would not get involved with people offering IT skills because I simply have zilch understanding of what they do. However he consulted a migration agent in Sydney called George Lombard: Profile | George Lombard Consultancy Pty. Ltd. Apart from an impressive CV of his own I think George has been a migration agent since about 1996 and he was involved with immigration before that, working with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. Obviously my friend Andrew - dealing with computer systems in schools as I understood it from my chat with him on the phone - sent his detailed CV to George. Andrew said later that he had obtained a skills assessment as a Building Associate. God knows how but George got this idea to stick to the wall all the way down the line and Andrew migrated to Oz last month. I think you should send your detailed CV to George, including chapter & verse about your qualification, plus a DETAILED description of your duties in your job. I can't promise that George can find you an ASCO label to hang round your neck but if anybody can do it, he can. Best wishes Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Maroti Posted June 9, 2009 Author Share Posted June 9, 2009 Thank you all for your responses! NIGELINOZ, thanks for the link you shared, and yes, that could be one of many companies that are in my field of work. Most architectural firms (like the one i work for now) are starting to employ architectural illustrators "inhouse" to interpret their "dry" blueprints and drawings into pretty, photorealistic pictures and animations. So, i believe that with the development boom that is going on in many parts of Oz, i shouldn´t have to go without work, especially once this global economic crises starts to turn. JAYDEE, it really IS nice to see that there are others out there in a similar situation, not that it makes it any easier for either of us, but yes, exchanging ideas and experiences would be great! If what the agents explained to you, that skills and experience "means diddley squat" really is the case, which i´m starting to feel is true, then my hope lies in if my defacto partners skills and qualifications (process manager in banking) will be sufficient and that she then can be the main applicant, and i tag along. Is this not a possibility in you and your husbands case? GOLLYWOBBLER, yes, i used to be the guy with the water colours and the models back in the days, though these days the standard (and often the requirement) is the computer generated images and animations that you see on the tele and in the brochures and on billboards. So it might sound exotic to many people, but in reality you usually see my kind of work every day on the streets and in the media. I´ve done lots of research over the last year or two and i belive my closest definition would be as „illustrator” (ASCO code 253319), and not as one of the countless computer professional occupations listed, which makes Vetassess my assessing authority. I might ask George Lombard as you suggested, i have already had contact with GoMatilda, but the thing is that if it wasn´t for this "discrimination", as JAYDEE also says, of skills and careers that simply don´t fit the regulations, then i would gladly do the whole process by myself, as i don´t mind the researching that it takes to do the applications and everything else around it. So therefore the fees that these otherwise very competent and sympathetic agencies take for their services, are way more than i would want to spend, especially if the case is as JAYDEE mentioned, that skills like ours don´t have a chance towards Vetassess anyway. Your question about my qualifications; i´m not a "pom", i lived in Sweden for most of my life, and i have a diploma certificate from a two year advanced vocational education i did as a "computer graphics artist". I´ve done this kind of work for about eight years, four of these since my certificate. I purchased a "Country education profile" for Sweden from AEI, but didn´t really get much wiser, the conclusion in the end was that "vocational education" as the one i have, will be "assessed on a case-by-case basis", if assessed at all. So the hazy, grey mist is still there :-/ Once again i have to agree with JAYDEE in my frustration. But i´ll continue looking around, the worst i can get is a "no". Thank you all again for your input and advice! -Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydee Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Hi Peter, How useful is this forum?! I have only recently joined and am amazed by how eager people are to help and offer their help and suggestion - Gollywobbler in particular is a star. We are continuing to try and get some clarity on the situation but are rapidly drawing to the conclusion that there is no way around this. I think it is a great idea to keep in touch through this on any changes though - perhaps two heads may be better than one eh?! Perhaps the simplest way for you may be tagging on your partner's skill if that is a 'wanted' one? We are in a bit of an awkward situation as I have a degree but, due to being a mum to 2 young children, work term-time only in a clerical role. This is not an 'in-demand' vocation and, if it were, I do not do enough hours to qualify anyway! If we weren't so set on going out there, I would feel that things were conspiring against us.:frown: We are still exploring the route of being Employer Sponsored but this seems to make you quite vulnerable. I would love to get out there on our own merits and not be so dependent on others if that makes sense. We have also heard from companies that are interested but just not willing, or able, to do the leg work to get you out there. It is all getting very frustrating! I wish you luck with your search though and keep us posted on how you are getting on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Mighalls Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Hi Jaydee, My husband is a Graphic Artist, doing artwork and animations for computer games, tv ads, music videos etc. He has 17 years experience (most of this at a senior level), has a portfolio and great references and has even written and had published 2 books on the subject but has no degree! This has never been an issue before and he is feeling so frustrated about it. If all that can be adequately substantiated to an appropriate and satisfactory level I would be happy to take him on with a view to lodging an application for a Distinguished Talent Visa (Subclass 124). If you would like me to take a look at it send a highly detailed CV to me and I'll tell you whether or not I think it will fly. If so, I'll send you a costs estimate for us to do it for you. The email address is les (at) migrationassistance (dot) com (dot) au. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydee Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Les, Thank you so much for this. I will send you over his current cv asap via the email address. It is pretty detailed but we can of course provide more if required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scotty Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I'm pretty much in the same boat. I studied art and graphic design over three years but stopped at diploma level and got a job rather than continue to a degree level. These days I work as a designer/illustrator and I've worked for myself for the past two years. The problem is that as a graphic designer or an illustrator I need a degree. I have a portfolio website, a blog, I've written illustration tutorials, been interviewed by several design sites and as a twist of irony many of my clients are in Australia. Still that lack of a degree holds me back. I know a fellow illustrator who made the move to Australia on a Distinguished Talent Visa but he is pretty well known and I never thought I could be classed as a "Distinguished Talent". Maybe it's worth another look? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Hi All I know a fellow illustrator who made the move to Australia on a Distinguished Talent Visa but he is pretty well known Details of the subclass 124 Distinguished Talent visa are here: Distinguished Talent Visa (Offshore) (subclass 124) The Nominator is crucial: Distinguished Talent Visa (Offshore) (subclass 124) The first question the Nominator would be asked is, "Why doesn't your organisation simply offer this person a job and back him for an ENS 121 visa in the usual way?" Distinguished Talent Visa (Offshore) (subclass 124) The criteria for assessing the applicant are very stiff indeed: Distinguished Talent Visa (Offshore) (subclass 124) 211 Distinguished Talent visas were granted in 2007/8. In the same period, 23, 762 Employer sponsored visas were granted, about 50% of them to people already living and working in Oz on 457 visas. 78,000 skilled independent visas were granted. http://www.immi.gov.au/media/statistics/pdf/report-on-migration-program-2007-08.pdf The figures are on Pages 17 & 18 or thereabouts in the pdf file above. If Les Mighalls is willing to do a shed load of work for you for free then well & good. Unless a Nominator of suitable standing - national standing in Australia - has already been identified, I think nobody should get their hopes up unduly. Best wishes Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Mighalls Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Hi Gill, No-one is getting anyone's hopes up unduly, least of all me. There is far more to being a migration consultant than the mere filling of forms. If someone does not fit in with the 'tick box approach' then one needs to look outside the square for other approaches to helping people. You can't help people by restricting yourself to only those whose cases are straightforward. A realistic assessment still has to be made, but that assessment has to be made in the possession of as many facts as possible. I know this forum is principally frequented by GSM applicants but there is far more to migration consultancy than that and one has to approach everyone's situation with an open mind. The first question the Nominator would be asked is, "Why doesn't your organisation simply offer this person a job and back him for an ENS 121 visa in the usual way?" You are quite wrong in that. That statement is very much based on the closed mind-set of general skilled migration. The nominating person or organization does not have to be in the position of being able to offer employment to the DTV applicant. I'll give you an example. One of my favourite nominations was for a Lebanese belly dancer. Try fitting her into one of the GSM boxes. And, yes, she was successful. Cheers, Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Maroti Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 Went straight to the horse´s mouth yesterday, wrote an open, clear and straightforward letter to Vetassess and iquired some info about the matter, explaining what i explained in this forum earlier. Wasn´t hoping for any miracles, just some information, i´m sure they get loads of letters from people, some of whom might even ask about similar things as i did. Unfortunately the answer, even though the sender had a name, was more like if a robot had quoted a few paragraphs from their webpage, rounded of with a couple of "Please refer to..." -s. Sad, because i kind of hoped for just a liiiiittle human dialogue, even if they had just told me to get lost. Though, i guess that´s what they did in their own way :-) Anyways, i wish and hope that mr. MIGHALLS´s solution with the DTV would be an alternative, but just like SCOTTY mentioned, no matter how good or selfconfident i might be, but "internationally recognised for exceptional and outstanding achievement", i don´t know about that, especially if i have to back up such claims with written proof. But otherwise the part about "The nominating person or organization does not have to be in the position of being able to offer employment to the DTV applicant." did sound interesting. Well, i´ll get down there one way or another :-) and thanx for your help along the way! -Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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