Gbye grey sky Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 So sorry to here this - the law is on your side but you may have a long and painful battle ahead. I honestly think your best option right now is to take some leave and go to where your wife and children are - I don't know how old they are but if they are at an age where they can understand then they need to know from your actions not just your words that they are the priority. As MTT says there are some tough questions you have to answer for yourself - do you want to try and save your marriage? Enough to move back to the UK if that's what your wife wants? Do you really want to force your wife back to Australia by applying the Hague Convention? Where do your children want to be? Would that be the same if their mother has been forced to live there? If your wife refused to returned are you willing (& able) to be a single parent in Australia? Would that be in the best interests of your children? Your heart is breaking right now and I would urge you to tread gently - there is nothing your wife can do that you cannot respond to at a later date with the same outcome, if you respond with heavy threats and lawyers however it may reduce the chance of any kind of negotiated outcome. I hope you have some good friends around you right now. Agree with all this but especially the one I have highlighted in bold and Who do the children want to be with is equally valid to the physical location assuming they are old enough to have a view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coops13 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Thanks for those that have taken the time to respond. By way of an update and a little background I have now been in touch with the ISS who are Australia's International Parental Child Abduction Legal Assistance Service organisation. They provide free legal advice and assist in the preparation of the application for the return of the children through the Hague Convention. Whilst their services are free this means that they have a backlog and it is not expected that my application will be lodged until the end of November with an expectation that the whole process will take in the region of six months. This has been a real blow and the thought of being away from them for so long is just tearing me to pieces. I have had no contact from my wife other than a letter from a solicitor firm offering me some random custody rights should I agree to let them stay. I have not and will not respond to this. My children have been very resilient to date as children often are and I have spoken to then briefly about the situation and assured them that they will be coming home and they should just treat this as an extended holiday. They are both starting school this Friday and it is clear that real efforts are being made to 'settle' them back into some kind of normality which is good but totally unrealistic when they have left their dad, dog, home and friends on the other side of the world with no opportunity to say goodbye. Both have said they want to return but I can see that this could change over a six month period. I have no idea what to do for the best....? Speak with them honestly and openly or try not to include them too much in what is going on as I have been advised that as they are both under 16 they don't have to make the decision as to where they live. In a way, I am pleased about that as no child should be put in such a difficult position. My children are 14 and 10 years old. I have had to continue the 'ruse' of telling friends that they will be staying in the UK for an extended period due to family illness but people aren't silly. Those that do know such as the childrens school have been very understanding but I can't help feeling that I am also being judged. People just won't believe that a mother would run off with the children without there being anything serious wrong. Other than her missing her mother and us having drifted apart there is nothing serious wrong. I am not abusive in anyway at all, I don't drink or have some addictive side. My children are my world and I am at a loss as to what to do. I can't go downstairs as I had filled the front room with camping equipment as we were due to go camping for the school holidays. I can't bear to look at it...... Whilst I have been advised that the return should be a formality.....I am scared for the future and am still just numb that this has happened. I have no idea as to how she is going to fund this either as she has no job and we have very little funds available in the UK and cashflow in Oz is tight. I/we simply cannot afford to run another 'household' in the UK. Thanks again for those that have dropped a note through. One thing that has come out of this is how genuinely good most people are. My work and friends of both my wife and mine have been so supportive......even if I can't actually talk to anyone about the real situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight7 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Some of these cases get a lot of publicity and I am wondering if that might be a route to follow- kind of 'shaming' your wife into returning your children? The danger is that she might go into hiding which coukld prolong things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Hi Coops13 As a father I feel your pain through your words. I don't know if you have said but are you a UK citizen with right of abode in the UK? Though it will be difficult and might feel like a surrender of some sort might it not be possible to work towards a goal of relocating to the UK and finding work here. You could then have a more 'normal' custody/visitation agreement that does not involve one parent or the other being on the other side of the world from the children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Pom Queen Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Thanks for those that have taken the time to respond. By way of an update and a little background I have now been in touch with the ISS who are Australia's International Parental Child Abduction Legal Assistance Service organisation. They provide free legal advice and assist in the preparation of the application for the return of the children through the Hague Convention. Whilst their services are free this means that they have a backlog and it is not expected that my application will be lodged until the end of November with an expectation that the whole process will take in the region of six months. This has been a real blow and the thought of being away from them for so long is just tearing me to pieces. I have had no contact from my wife other than a letter from a solicitor firm offering me some random custody rights should I agree to let them stay. I have not and will not respond to this. My children have been very resilient to date as children often are and I have spoken to then briefly about the situation and assured them that they will be coming home and they should just treat this as an extended holiday. They are both starting school this Friday and it is clear that real efforts are being made to 'settle' them back into some kind of normality which is good but totally unrealistic when they have left their dad, dog, home and friends on the other side of the world with no opportunity to say goodbye. Both have said they want to return but I can see that this could change over a six month period. I have no idea what to do for the best....? Speak with them honestly and openly or try not to include them too much in what is going on as I have been advised that as they are both under 16 they don't have to make the decision as to where they live. In a way, I am pleased about that as no child should be put in such a difficult position. My children are 14 and 10 years old. I have had to continue the 'ruse' of telling friends that they will be staying in the UK for an extended period due to family illness but people aren't silly. Those that do know such as the childrens school have been very understanding but I can't help feeling that I am also being judged. People just won't believe that a mother would run off with the children without there being anything serious wrong. Other than her missing her mother and us having drifted apart there is nothing serious wrong. I am not abusive in anyway at all, I don't drink or have some addictive side. My children are my world and I am at a loss as to what to do. I can't go downstairs as I had filled the front room with camping equipment as we were due to go camping for the school holidays. I can't bear to look at it...... Whilst I have been advised that the return should be a formality.....I am scared for the future and am still just numb that this has happened. I have no idea as to how she is going to fund this either as she has no job and we have very little funds available in the UK and cashflow in Oz is tight. I/we simply cannot afford to run another 'household' in the UK. Thanks again for those that have dropped a note through. One thing that has come out of this is how genuinely good most people are. My work and friends of both my wife and mine have been so supportive......even if I can't actually talk to anyone about the real situation. Thank you for keeping us updated, it helps other parents know they aren't alone. I have a question and don't know if you have considered it. My ex once turned up at the school and took mine away, the school said they have no legal right to stop him unless I have a court order saying as much. I am wondering if you could do the same. Fly back to the UK and bring the children back. The only issue I see with this is that the poor children are not going to know if they are coming or going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MovingtoTasmania Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Thank you for keeping us updated, it helps other parents know they aren't alone.I have a question and don't know if you have considered it. My ex once turned up at the school and took mine away, the school said they have no legal right to stop him unless I have a court order saying as much. I am wondering if you could do the same. Fly back to the UK and bring the children back. The only issue I see with this is that the poor children are not going to know if they are coming or going. I agree with this. Others may not, but I bet if it was the mother posting, not the father, then they maybe would be encouraging this. Coops, you are right that it's a lot of pressure for your children if they have to make the decision but seems to me that they have both said to you that they want to return. Now, it may be that they are telling you what you want to hear, but it also may be that they really do want to return. They have settled lives in Australia and ultimately, while your wife may miss her mother, the children equally will be missing their father. Don't feel that people are judging you. Why would we? Why would anyone? Spouses leave marriages every day of the week and there doesn't need to be drink or abuse involved, it can be as simple as they no longer want to be there. Seems to me that your wife only left because she wants to be near her mother. Don't feel any embarrassment or shame. Focus on getting your children back. See if you can find a lawyer to help you who might allow you to make payments monthly or something if you can't afford lump sum payments (there are some like that around but far and few between). Email and write to your children as often as you can, so that they know you DO love them and want them, especially if your wife is making phone contact difficult. Don't however put anything in writing that could be used against you but do stress to them that their friends etc., in Australia are all missing them and that you miss them. Please keep us updated :hug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Thank you for keeping us updated, it helps other parents know they aren't alone.I have a question and don't know if you have considered it. My ex once turned up at the school and took mine away, the school said they have no legal right to stop him unless I have a court order saying as much. I am wondering if you could do the same. Fly back to the UK and bring the children back. The only issue I see with this is that the poor children are not going to know if they are coming or going. I can see plenty of reasons why this is not a good idea, not the least of which is the one you highlighted. What about their clothes, favourite toys etc. This is treating children as mere possessions to be removed by either partner. Currently the law at least is on his side but abducting the children might change that. I really see no merit in this course of action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieMay24 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I can see plenty of reasons why this is not a good idea, not the least of which is the one you highlighted. What about their clothes, favourite toys etc. This is treating children as mere possessions to be removed by either partner. Currently the law at least is on his side but abducting the children might change that. I really see no merit in this course of action. Not having their passports would be a huge issue. As tempting as it would be to reciprocate, I imagine this would only make things worse. I feel for what you must be going through, but I think it's best to let the system to run its course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jac2011 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I wish I could do more to help, I am from a broken marriage and as much as I call him at times I understand he is there father and we support each other the best way we can even when what we want are completely different things. Your wife has been selfish and cruel and I cannot imagine any parent being able to do that. One day your children will be old enough to understand what happened and you will have the right to tell them your side too. Is there anyway way you can print out details of the hague convention or get newspaper reports on children that have been extradited back to their other parent and send all this to her? I think, if she has ignored any correspondence she is past doing this amicably. I am presuming you are ready to carry on to protect your children, but you have chosen to end your marriage. Is it possible to contact the local newspaper in her village/town/city? They are always grasping at stories. How about a Facebook petition? These are all extreme measures but without a long legal battle I dont know how else to get her to realise what she has done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight7 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 If you did have the children would you be able to look after them whilst working to support them at the same time? If the answer is 'yes' I would pull out all stops to get them back- would your wife return to Australia if she was forced to do so by the Hague Convention? How old must a child be before he/she makes up their own mind where to live? I'm thinking if they want to return to you by the time they are mid teens they will certainly make life very difficult for their mother- teenagers have a way of doing that. Essentially , though, don't lose touch with them, even if you have to fund all phone calls etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coops13 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 My wife has the passports so this isn't an option although, if I'm being totally honest I would have considered it. I have again had to sit through another Skype call with my son sobbing as he wants to come home and doesn't understand why he's not allowed to. He said he feels trapped and like a prisoner and that any time he mentions Australia to anyone they all start saying why it's such a horrible place. I just want to clarify a couple of things that have come up in conversations with some on this site both on this thread and off it. We moved to Australia to provide our family with a better life. One with financial security, good education (I don't want a debate on this point. Suffice to say my children were both in very good schools), and a better lifestyle which is largely related to the weather and access to a more outdoors life. We have achieved all this as I have a well paid and secure job that provides me with plenty of flexiblity, we live on the Mornington Peninsula which is a stunning part of the world and the schools are great, and we have extended family here as well as the UK. The 'option' of moving back to the UK just isn't a viable one. The area where I would have to move back to is classed as 'deprived area' with poor schools, high crime and little if any real job prospects. My wanting to have my children returned is not a selfish one as I 'just prefer it here'. I want them here because it is the only place that I can provide for them and it ultimately will provide them with more opportunities going forwards. I have lived in the UK for 20 years and the for the last 10 of those I wanted to come back to Australia. My wife didn't so we couldn't. At no time did I consider abducting my children and forcing her to come. What example am I setting....! I would like to again thank you for the comments and support. I have decided to 'go public' with what's happened and will be speaking with our mutual friends both here and in the UK and letting them form their own opinion and just hope that maybe some of them will speak with her. I am struggling to cope with this on my own and people are offering support without even knowing the truth and I need to take it. My sons classmates have all asked if they can do a fortnightly skype video to send over which is great and it's this sort of thing that will make a world of difference to them . Thanks again.... :notworthy: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MovingtoTasmania Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Thank you for the update @Coops13. Tbh, imo, you don't need to justify why you don't want to move back to the UK, but with what you have said, I'm not sure that I would want to live in this area either! And I don't live in a "fancy" place either. How absolutely heartbreaking for you and your sons. It sounds as if they settled in really well and I think that your wife was only ever thinking of herself when she decided to relocate them to the UK without any warning. I wonder if your wife was depressed? Keep that contact going as the boys need to know that you are there for them. Get legal advice and start the ball rolling to have them returned. Please don't delay on this but be careful who you tell as you don't want your wife "disappearing" with the kids. :hug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elm86 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Where can I get more info? Does the same rules apply if your baby is born in aus 2 australian father whilst mother is here awaiting PR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy1 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Where can I get more info? Does the same rules apply if your baby is born in aus 2 australian father whilst mother is here awaiting PR? The baby cannot go back to the UK without the permission of the Australian Father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elm86 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Even if baby has british passport? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy1 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) Even if baby has british passport? It makes no difference. The baby cannot relocate to the UK without the permission of the Father. Edited October 28, 2014 by Sammy1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elm86 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 so if father gives verbal consent then changes his mind maipulating the situation what rights do mothers have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy1 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) so if father gives verbal consent then changes his mind maipulating the situation what rights do mothers have Why the bold print? Verbal is really worth nothing in the case of international relocation. I believe you would need to get a written declaration witnessed by a lawyer at the very least, or if the Father refuses, then the permission of the courts to relocate.Otherwise you will be in violation of the Hague Convention and mostly likely the child be removed and sent back to Australia. Unfortunately this happens to many women time and again when they move to Australia or many other countries. The baby was also born here, lives here and is an Australian citizen. The law is clear that relocation cannot happen without permission. Edited October 28, 2014 by Sammy1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elm86 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Sorry didnt realise its coming in bald print im on my phone... Thanks for your help. Though its left me feeling physically sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy1 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Sorry didnt realise its coming in bald print im on my phone...Thanks for your help. Though its left me feeling physically sick. Yep, it's a horrible situation. I have lived through it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elm86 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Really. I thought both being commonwealth thered be a bit more common sense involved. Nice us mothers left stranded to deal with men who turn out to be now what u thought and who can manipulate yoirs and your babies life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MovingtoTasmania Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Really. I thought both being commonwealth thered be a bit more common sense involved. Nice us mothers left stranded to deal with men who turn out to be now what u thought and who can manipulate yoirs and your babies life It's not only Australia that has these rules, it's any country that is party to the Hague Convention. An Australian woman living in the UK with a man, regardless of his citizenship, would not be able to remove his children from the UK to permanently relocate elsewhere, without his written permission, or as Sammy says, the permission of the Courts. If a child is settled in one country, it may be seen that it is too much upheaval to remove that child to relocate overseas, which may also mean cutting family ties with the father/father's family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elm86 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 My babies 3 months old so shed know no different. Im absolutely gutted trying to absorb this info. My partner promised I could go home any tine untill it came to it. Then he obviously changed his minf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MovingtoTasmania Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 My babies 3 months old so shed know no different. Im absolutely gutted trying to absorb this info. My partner promised I could go home any tine untill it came to it. Then he obviously changed his minf I'm so sorry sweetheart but I'm afraid that the only recourse open to you is to seek legal advice and get the Court to give permission. If you remove the baby without his consent, he could say you've kidnapped her. I'm really sorry :hug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy1 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 My babies 3 months old so shed know no different. Im absolutely gutted trying to absorb this info. My partner promised I could go home any tine untill it came to it. Then he obviously changed his minf I am so very sorry. It's a truly horrible situation. I would try and get something written down if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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