2tigers Posted July 8, 2013 Author Share Posted July 8, 2013 Hello Quoll and Tina2, its been a while...... nice to read you are both here and helping others to see life from different perspectives. cshowell, as both above have very well said - each case is different, it would be completely wrong to assume all of the cases are where a parent misses home and just decides to up sticks and move back to where they came from. Without knowing the fine details of each persons case, your assumptions can be damaging. Each case is complicated, with mental, physical, financial and emotional abuse being aspects that are as damaging as each other. If a parent was going through any or all of these situations, the effect on the child can be even more damaging. A lot of the people who have contributed to this thread have been there in the above situations and some are still there, please have some empathy for those that you have just assumed put only themselves first. I am the initial author of this thread, my aim to was make people aware that they cannot just move back home with the children if their relationship breaks down, that they need to sit down and think about all the possible outcomes, and agree as best as they can, before moving to the other side of the world. Although we cannot predict how we would react in such a situation, it would help greatly to discuss and find out the other persons thoughts before agreeing to move the children. Its a step forward in looking out of the box, to be realistic and not assume that the new life will be a rose garden, the stresses and pressure put on families when they move is tremendous and a lot of people split up due to the pressure. As it is, I know from experience that a lot of people, without realising, put more thought into researching a new home than they do thinking about what if we split up, what would happen to the children? I can guarantee you now, most people who read this have not had the discussion with their partner, their love of their life - what would happen to our children if we split up? It is difficult to predict what you would do, but sensible to discuss it. When in a relationship it is naturally optimistic of us to think about a happy future, not the dowdy negative aspects. When moving, most people do not envision that their lives could be completely torn apart if their relationship fails. Not just themselves, but their children too. This is when it gets very very complicated. This is why this thread urges those who are looking to move abroad with children, or have children when there, to discuss the 'what if's'..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK Waylander Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 I agree. But, separations are so traumatic and contentious for all in involved that they are very rarely able to think or see straight. Speaking from experience you always need to show some self-interest, but, I draw the line at narcissism. I don't agree that just because a couple separates that one (normally the woman but, not always) should be able to up sticks and go back in this case to the UK with the kids leaving the other parent on their own without the ability to directly parent the children. Perhaps one view is that if you cannot agree then you should live in the last place you both agreed to live in which in this case would be Australia. Simplistic and probably not fair to someone in the equation but, it takes away the emotional trauma of moving and separation from the kids. Yes it leaves one or both of the parents unhappy but, their you go. I will add that now sometime down the track I am considering sending the kids to my ex partner now that she has a job and a house and is somewhat more stable. This would give me the flexibility to work/save in order to move back to the UK. As I recognise that despite the intense and fundamental disagreement over this I have with the ex that the children deserve a Mother, Father and stability. Sadly though the pattern of narcissistic self interest is becoming more and more common these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina2 Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 I agree. But, separations are so traumatic and contentious for all in involved that they are very rarely able to think or see straight. Speaking from experience you always need to show some self-interest, but, I draw the line at narcissism. I don't agree that just because a couple separates that one (normally the woman but, not always) should be able to up sticks and go back in this case to the UK with the kids leaving the other parent on their own without the ability to directly parent the children. Perhaps one view is that if you cannot agree then you should live in the last place you both agreed to live in which in this case would be Australia. Simplistic and probably not fair to someone in the equation but, it takes away the emotional trauma of moving and separation from the kids. Yes it leaves one or both of the parents unhappy but, their you go. I will add that now sometime down the track I am considering sending the kids to my ex partner now that she has a job and a house and is somewhat more stable. This would give me the flexibility to work/save in order to move back to the UK. As I recognise that despite the intense and fundamental disagreement over this I have with the ex that the children deserve a Mother, Father and stability. Sadly though the pattern of narcissistic self interest is becoming more and more common these days. Well said waylander, the issue really is the family court tries a one size fits all policy and it is having devastating effects on the children. The court and judges work load is just so high they don't have the time to deal in a one on one type situation with all the cases especially when as you say you have narcissists hell bent on destroying the other party and control freaks who again want to control the Ex partner and eventually the poor kids dragging the ex to court over every tine thing. I don't know what the answer is , maybe make it harder to get married in the first place. That is the place to start, intense pre marrage councilling, and if you are planning a family more intense councilling where these sort of issues could be discussed. Yes some people would refuse to attend but if there was a rule that if you don't attend you cant claim any benefits for any child born that might do the trick. I wish you all the best in finding a job so you can save to return to the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachel Tilley Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 I'm currently helping with support for two English ladies who have been ordered back to Australia with their children under the Hague Convention. Both are going back against their will and will struggle emotionally (and financially). They have no family to go back to and both will be starting legal proceedings to try and relocate to England again as soon as they arrive. Is there anyone in Sydney and Melbourne who could offer some friendship and emotional support? The one lady arrived in Melbourne on Monday and the other lady is having to fly back to Sydney at the end of this month. The lady going to Sydney would really appreciate some contact with people locally as she will feel very isolated. If you can help out and would like to make contact with these ladies privately then please PM me and I will exchange their email addresses with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina2 Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 I'm currently helping with support for two English ladies who have been ordered back to Australia with their children under the Hague Convention. Both are going back against their will and will struggle emotionally (and financially). They have no family to go back to and both will be starting legal proceedings to try and relocate to England again as soon as they arrive. Is there anyone in Sydney and Melbourne who could offer some friendship and emotional support? The one lady arrived in Melbourne on Monday and the other lady is having to fly back to Sydney at the end of this month. The lady going to Sydney would really appreciate some contact with people locally as she will feel very isolated. If you can help out and would like to make contact with these ladies privately then please PM me and I will exchange their email addresses with you. I cant help but my thoughts and prays are with both Ladies. We are Living the night mare every day and it will not end for another 13 years. I just hope people read this thread and make themselves very well informed about the rules of the family court before they move over hear. The love of your life may not be the most loving and caring person when it comes to divorce and who will live where. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoll Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 I'm currently helping with support for two English ladies who have been ordered back to Australia with their children under the Hague Convention. Both are going back against their will and will struggle emotionally (and financially). They have no family to go back to and both will be starting legal proceedings to try and relocate to England again as soon as they arrive. Is there anyone in Sydney and Melbourne who could offer some friendship and emotional support? The one lady arrived in Melbourne on Monday and the other lady is having to fly back to Sydney at the end of this month. The lady going to Sydney would really appreciate some contact with people locally as she will feel very isolated. If you can help out and would like to make contact with these ladies privately then please PM me and I will exchange their email addresses with you. That is so sad! Sorry not in a position to help but it does highlight the draconian court rulings in Aus. I guess it's a shame they didn't do it right or understand the implications of what actions they may have taken. Good luck to both! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachel Tilley Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) The sad thing about this is that the lady who has gone back to Melbourne DID have her ex husband's permission to leave Australia, but 5 months later he changed his mind! After failing to get the lady to take the children back voluntarily he invoked the Hague Convention and the UK High Court accepted he gave permission (there was evidence of it) but decided to order a return anyway on the basis that the Australian Family Court should make the decision about what country the children should live in. In my experience, this is the HC being used wrongly, as it should be about enforcing a return of children who have been removed WITHOUT consent, not to use when someone changes their mind. The lady cannot afford an appeal in the UK so has gone back as per the UK court order and is hoping to be allowed to relocate again via the Australian Family Court. The emotional impact this will have on the children is huge. They had settled in to new schools but not allowed to even finish their first year. Edited June 11, 2014 by Rachel Tilley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoll Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) No! That's terrible! And now she's back she will have Buckleys! It needed a pro bono feminist lawyer there I feel! Edited June 11, 2014 by Quoll added thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina2 Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) This also allows vindictive ex partners to use this to emotionally destroy the ex wife ( punishment for a failed marrage at its best ) how can anyone settle into a new life wether they move overseas or interstate knowing that at any given time the ex can turn around and change there mind and the wife and children have to again pack up and move back to where they came from. It can also be use to "control" the ex wife - do exactly as I say and give me exactly what I want or I will make you move back. Money is another major issue, men often still have a job after seperation so money to fight with, many women have given up work to care for the home and children so they have no job, no money to hire lawyers so one person in court with lawyers and barristers and one in court self representing. Totally wrong. Edited June 11, 2014 by Tina2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 There are 2 sides to every story. I'm sure if it was the husband who took the children and flew back to the UK with them, you would think very differently. The rule of law has to be equal for men and women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina2 Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) There are 2 sides to every story.I'm sure if it was the husband who took the children and flew back to the UK with them, you would think very differently. The rule of law has to be equal for men and women. WOW for once I agree with you ! The issue is this, pre 1993 the law was very much on the side of women, it was almost automatic that women got the kids and dad was at the mercy of "some" women who were spitful and did not want dads involved with the kids. Then a chap called Barry started the mens rights movement, it has been like a wheel on level ground that then reaches a down hill section rapidly gaining momentum. Now it is 150% the other way. Women have little or no rights. The Family Courts state - everything must be child focused but that is far from what is happening. You really need to be involved and go through the family courts to understand what is happening now. As I said many women have no legal representation, they often dont have a job, which is the opposite for the men. It is very much about "money" simple as that when it should be about the children. I know of men who have openly lied in court and still ended up winning. Men on the witness stand for 30 minuets while mum is up there for 4 hours while the ex laughs and tells his council to "rip her apart" and "nothing" is done to stop it. I totally agree it should be "fair" but I assure you that is a long way off what is currently happening. Edited June 12, 2014 by Tina2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoll Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) There are 2 sides to every story.I'm sure if it was the husband who took the children and flew back to the UK with them, you would think very differently. The rule of law has to be equal for men and women. I agree with you too - I've seen men and women behave quite inappropriately in these sort of cases with nice reasonable blokes being smeared with slurs of sexual abuse and women being condemned to live in particular suburbs they can ill afford with no support through the vindictiveness of their ex. OTOH I've seen some utterly screwed up kids whose parents took the law at its word and shared the kids equally (night and night about in one case, kids didn't know if they were Arthur or Martha!) I just just think that if courts in UK, which also profess to consider the rights of the child, can weigh up what is best in the removal from jurisdiction then an Aussie court should be prepared to do the same but they don't. They just will NOT allow removal from jurisdiction even if the OH is the biggest drop kick of all time, drug abusing, violent, whatever. In the case Rachel mentioned where permission was given, the kids moved then permission rescinded is all about control and revenge and absolutely should not have been allowed to happen IMHO. I can certainly see the point of invoking the HC if a kid was snatched and permission had not been given - that's quite different. Unfortunately, in most cases the woman is the primary care giver and the one most in need of support in raising the kids and if they are thousands of miles away from that support it gets very hard especially when that role means they are financially restricted by employment limitations. It'd be lovely if marital splits were nice and amicable but, sadly, the majority aren't and the venom and spite can be measured by the barrel. Edited June 12, 2014 by Quoll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina2 Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 I agree with you too - I've seen men and women behave quite inappropriately in these sort of cases with nice reasonable blokes being smeared with slurs of sexual abuse and women being condemned to live in particular suburbs they can ill afford with no support through the vindictiveness of their ex. OTOH I've seen some utterly screwed up kids whose parents took the law at its word and shared the kids equally (night and night about in one case, kids didn't know if they were Arthur or Martha!) I just just think that if courts in UK, which also profess to consider the rights of the child, can weigh up what is best in the removal from jurisdiction then an Aussie court should be prepared to do the same but they don't. They just will NOT allow removal from jurisdiction even if the OH is the biggest drop kick of all time, drug abusing, violent, whatever. In the case Rachel mentioned where permission was given, the kids moved then permission rescinded is all about control and revenge and absolutely should not have been allowed to happen IMHO. I can certainly see the point of invoking the HC if a kid was snatched and permission had not been given - that's quite different. Unfortunately, in most cases the woman is the primary care giver and the one most in need of support in raising the kids and if they are thousands of miles away from that support it gets very hard especially when that role means they are financially restricted by employment limitations. It'd be lovely if marital splits were nice and amicable but, sadly, the majority aren't and the venom and spite can be measured by the barrel. 100% agree Quoll, its the poor kids that this really effects they become like a piece of furniture that is moved from place to place on a weekly basic. Kids off to school on Fridays school bag in one hand and SUITCASE IN THE OTHER . Ask these kids and where do you live ? and watch the heads go down and look at the floor ! They have NO HOME they just have 2 houses. The other issue is child support, the more time you have the children the less you pay, so 50/50 means do one pays, or they pay a very small amount. As said by Rachel men who are self employed are the worse they hide there income, who suffers ? Yes of course the poor kids. On one side you have the parent with an established career often moving quickly into a new relationship so the bills are shared and income is combind, on the other side you have the other parent who has zero family support so even if offered a job 8 - 5 they cant take it. I have grave fears for the thousends of single parents when the removal of Tax B comes into force, there is no way many will be able to keep a roof over there heads. Both sides should be forced to be reasonable and do what is best for the child. Neither side should be allowed to refuse relocation on the grounds they are not prepared to travel to see the children, in effect condeming the other parent to a life of total povety. Forcing a parent to live in isolation be that interstate or overseas for 18 years is worse than a jail sentance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 WOW for once I agree with you ! The issue is this, pre 1993 the law was very much on the side of women, it was almost automatic that women got the kids and dad was at the mercy of "some" women who were spitful and did not want dads involved with the kids. Then a chap called Barry started the mens rights movement, it has been like a wheel on level ground that then reaches a down hill section rapidly gaining momentum. Now it is 150% the other way. Women have little or no rights. The Family Courts state - everything must be child focused but that is far from what is happening. You really need to be involved and go through the family courts to understand what is happening now. As I said many women have no legal representation, they often dont have a job, which is the opposite for the men. It is very much about "money" simple as that when it should be about the children. I know of men who have openly lied in court and still ended up winning. Men on the witness stand for 30 minuets while mum is up there for 4 hours while the ex laughs and tells his council to "rip her apart" and "nothing" is done to stop it. I totally agree it should be "fair" but I assure you that is a long way off what is currently happening. Are you talking about the UK or Australia ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachel Tilley Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 It's happening all over the world, but Australia and New Zealand are the most common places where I'm supporting women who are trapped there. There is a case in NZ involving a British family who have separated and the child has been ordered to remain in NZ. The mother can't get a visa to remain there and is due to be deported later this month (it's at appeal stage at the moment) but her child is to remain in NZ. There is another lady who is now back in England and the same happened to her too and she has to fly to NZ to collect her daughter, bring her back to the UK for a holiday and then fly her back again! I was ordered back to Australia with my son even though me, my ex and our son were ALL on temporary visas (457) and I had no right to remain there once we'd separated. The Hague Convention of International Parental Child Abduction 1980 was introduced because, at the time, there were many fathers (and I stipulate "fathers"), predominantly of Asian nationality that were taking their children away from the mothers back to Pakistan, Bangladesh, India, never to be seen again. Mothers were having their own children kidnapped and there was nothing that could be done about it. This law was created to have the child (once found) returned to it's country of "habitual residence" as quickly as possible, and back then, the country of "habitual residence" was where the child was born and likely to grow up. Over the past 34 years, the world has become a smaller place and movement has become easier. We can now move and live around the EU without the need for visas - even without having to change our currency in some cases! TV programmes lure us to the other side of the world, mainly on the belief it's always worth giving it a go for a few years to try an idyllic new life style. People utter the words "give it a go/what have you got to lose/if it don't work out you can always come home again" etc. BUT, what families are not realising is that by moving to another country, even for a very short amount of time (19 weeks in my case) changes the child's country of "habitual residence". So when relationships break down, and people split up and one parent has no support network in that country any more, the natural thing to do is want to return home. And that's when a parent (and in the majority of cases, it's the mum) finds that they cannot return 'home' because the new country is unwittingly now 'home' and if they leave they are prosecuted for child abduction under this outdated law. They then become trapped. The sad thing is, verbal agreements between parents before or during the move are not valid and do not stand up in court. So all this "yes darling, if you don't settle there and miss your family of course we'll just go home again" is actually a load of b*llocks. There are many women who move abroad (and some men too) to support their spouse/partner in a career move, or just for a 'trial' period, and then for some reason the relationship breaks down. This may be because of domestic abuse, affairs, whatever, but the parent who does not want to return to the home country then holds all the cards and controls where the other parent lives. Often, it is the 'offending' parent that holds the cards, leaving the other parent trapped in a situation they don't want to be in but are legally stuck in and can't find a way out of. Legal costs to fight this are extortionate and the court procedures take years. So, a law that was designed to bring a child back to the mother is now being used to trap a mother in a situation that they can't get out of - unless of course, they want to go and leave their child behind! Sometimes, a mother is deported from a country because she has no right to remain, but cannot legally take her child with her because the courts have ruled the child must remain in it's country of "habitual residence". Everyone who is considering a move abroad needs to know about this law, and TV programmes such as Wanted Down Under and A Place In The Sun should make this known when broadcasting. It is worth knowing that there is no such thing as a 'trial period' before you make a decision about living in a country full time. Once you get there, unless the other parent agrees that the children can leave again - they can't! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina2 Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Are you talking about the UK or Australia ? Australia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MovingtoTasmania Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 This happens in the UK too. I know of people who have come to the UK, to try it out and see if they like out, as skilled migrants, mother doesn't fit in or whatever and wants to go home (and it happens very often believe it or not) and dad agrees. Dad's family then pressure him because it looks bad that mum and kids are back home and dad revokes permission, goes to Court and the UK courts will order the return of the child. That is because the UK are also bound by the HC, and any country that is bound by the HC HAS to return the child by law. This isn't only an Australia/New Zealand issue, this is a Hague Convention issue. It's really very wrong as although we might think that UK, Australia or wherever is the bees knees to live, there are people that come over from other so-called third world countries and really don't like it and are stuck here. There's a lot of mental health issues such as depression amongst these women as they feel that they don't want to continue here and yet, can't go home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina2 Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Unless you see this happening first hand people really cant understand what this feels like, and you are right mental issues that not only effect the person who desperately wants to go home but also the flow on effect to the children. This is worse than a jail sentance, because at least in Jail you get 3 meals a day and a decent roof over your head, and access to medical and mental health free of charge. The feeling of total loss and isolation for many in this situation is beyond words. Imagine this, you cant get a job, so struggle to pay rent on what you get from welfare payments, but know you could get a job, cheaper accomadation and a fresh start 2 hours away but you are not allowed to move, or you could go back to your own country, where there is family support, a job and you would not have to struggle and live in povety any more but you cant go because the ex says no, and no matter what you offer in the way of access and skype access again the answer is no. Its like the carrot om the stick dangling right in front of you but you know you will never be able to access it. Not just the HC that needs to be looked at but the family court in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MovingtoTasmania Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 It really is completely wrong and of course, this veil of silence that surrounds all family court proceedings, so that Joe Public really doesn't know what is going on and is unaware of the situation that some families find themselves in. It's absolutely so wrong and whilst yes, both parents should be able to have equal access to the child, not if that child is subject to living in poverty for the sake of a weekend per month to see the absent parent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SallyKay Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Hi everyone, I was very fortunate to have my wonderful mum inform me about this as she had done some research so i was made aware nice and early. We are emigrating this summer and I have seeked legal advice on this issue from two sources now just to ensure I received the correct information. I was advised that unfortunately there isn't an existence of a document that would be legally binding with this particular issue, however, there is something you can have written up which is called a Memorandum of Understanding. This WILL NOT hold any guarantees tho but it MAY help your case. As is always the case it isn't cheap! I was quoted around £500 and we felt that as it wouldn't guarantee anything ( this was highlighted several times from both lawyers ) it pretty much said to me that they know it's fairly useless!! If anyone has any more info on this having seeked legal advise I would be really interested in hearing it. I'm sure what I've been told is correct but I just can't believe there's nothing that is legally binding on this very serious issue!! I'm not prepared to spend such a lot of money for a piece of paper that is not going to be of much use!! I hope this may have been helpful to a few of you. You'd like to hope this wouldn't happen but I guess you just never know! I'm pretty sure my husband would never be so cruel as to leave me stuck in a country I hate and we have agreed that he wouldn't stop me coming home. We may just write something up ourselves and sign it. May leave a copy here with my mum. Will no doubt be useless too but I'll do it anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachel Tilley Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Hi SallyKay, Thank goodness you are aware of this BEFORE you move and have looked in to it. At least you are now going in to this with your eyes wide open. It's disappointing that in this day and age something like this will still not stand up in court. An American lady had something similar in writing when she moved to New Zealand with her husband and child, but when the marriage broke up the NZ courts ignored it and the child had to remain in NZ and the mum had to return to America because she couldn't support herself alone in NZ. I would invest the £500 and get this done though, as it can be submitted in evidence and a decent judge should consider that you had a prior agreement that has been legally acknowledged. Anything that MAY help your case is better than nothing! Although applying for a Relocation Order is very expensive and takes a long time, myself and 2Tigers who started this thread were both successful in being able to leave Australia, but apart from one other case I was made aware of a few days ago I don't know of anyone else who has been. I strongly believe what went in my favour was the fact I only had a temporary visa (not sure what 2Tigers had), but everyone else I know who has PR has not been allowed to take their children and return to their home country. (If anyone else reading this thread has been successful please correct me). If you do go ahead with the agreement, make sure that you detail the reason for your move ie. a temporary move to see if you both like it, a trial for a set period of time, and that the migration is NOT considered permanent at the time of leaving the UK. Hopefully, that sort of detail will cover the fact that this move was never a 'for ever' trip and that people are entitled to change their mind about living in a different country and never have to be trapped there! I believe there should be a time limit of 2-3 years to allow people to adjust, so you could add a time period to your MOU if you feel the need, and that if you wanted to return to the UK within that time limit you can. I know that £500 is a lot of money, but these things are worth trying - you never know, if you ever needed to use it you could become the first person from the UK to use this sort of document and become a stated case! Hopefully, the fact that your partner is willing to go to this length to assure you that he would come home again if you didn't settle means you would never have to use it, but better to be prepared than not. If you do get one, please keep us posted with what happens as your advice will be very valuable to others. Good luck and I hope your move is successful x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SallyKay Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 My mum has very kindly offered to pay for it so we will be going ahead. I will keep you posted! We will get it done in the next month or so. As my mum and yourself rightly said if it gives a little help towards such an awful situation it is worth it! I would suggest that if anyone else chooses to go ahead to ensure you have a copy left in the UK with a trusted relative. Things are so easily lost in transit! I'm very grateful to my mum, I'd have never even known about this!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SallyKay Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 And thank you so much Rachel, I will ensure we state that the move is initially to just see if we like it so not permanent. I would not have known to mention this so thank you. X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachel Tilley Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 And thank you so much Rachel, I will ensure we state that the move is initially to just see if we like it so not permanent. I would not have known to mention this so thank you. X You're very welcome :hug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina2 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 The truly heart breaking side of what happens in an international custody battle. http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/article/8876240/theft-victim-turns-vigilante-sleuth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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