The Voice Referendum

[unzippy 3,874]

17 hours ago, simmo said:

It may be obvious to you in your mind but apart from that, all you are saying is that some people are suffering trauma because of bad white men did bad things many many years ago.  I'm curious about how you think voting yes will change that?

 

I think trauma is still happening.  If all Aussies are equal - and have equal opportunities - why is this happening?

2022 by the way.

"Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people made up 32 per cent of the average prisoner population in the June quarter of 2022, despite only being three per cent of the general population."

 

[simmo 21,836]

1 hour ago, unzippy said:

I think trauma is still happening.  If all Aussies are equal - and have equal opportunities - why is this happening?

2022 by the way.

"Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people made up 32 per cent of the average prisoner population in the June quarter of 2022, despite only being three per cent of the general population."

 

From what I can ascertain, it's as if parts of the wider aboriginal community (I understand there's many tribes) have no intention of ever assimilating with the establishment or a multicultural Australia and if that's what they want, why should they?.  On the other hand, some parts of the aboriginal community are thriving in the multicultural Australia.  Is this because they are different tribes?. 

So, overrepresentation in the prison system. Is it because they simply commit more crime? Or are there other factors. It needs looking into for sure. But I'm struggling to understand what disadvantages they have over anyone else, where is the disparity?  If it exists, then it needs addressing. But I fail to understand how this referendum will make it all better.  To me it looks like virtue signalling on a massive scale with the ramifications being disastrous for a government running a country.  

For those voting YES. How do you envisage this making the "disadvantaged" lives better, what level of "advantage" is the goal?. What will be the tangible benefits? 

 

[Rallyman 4,082]

20 hours ago, simmo said:

Just been reading some more on this "voice" thing.  It appears that if successful unelected groups who might be wise, academic, fair.. or in the other hand may be radical activists with vexatious and destructive goals could be blocking laws laid down by elected bodies.  

Is this accurate?

I think this is the big concern, we don’t have enough details 

Albo sitting on the fence which seems to be the norm can’t get a straight answer even the top legal experts are saying it’s going to roll on for years with legal cases. 
I will wager with anybody that it’s not going to sort the issues out we have seen in media this year 

[Marisawright 10,722]

28 minutes ago, Rallyman said:

I think this is the big concern, we don’t have enough details 

I think we've got all the detail we need.  It's been stated several times that it will be a purely advisory body. Its job will be to comment on how government policies affect Aboriginal people. They won't have any power.

I'm still against it.  Just window-dressing to make it look like they're fixing Aboriginal issues.  All the money that's going to be spent on the referendum, legal advice on the constitution, not to mention all the expenses of the advisory body when it's created -- trips to Canberra, junkets etc.    It would be so much better spent fixing the problems that have ALREADY been identified many many times.   

[HappyHeart 14,320]

6 hours ago, InnerVoice said:

The whole sorry business (to excuse the pun) started with Kevin Rudd saying "Sorry" back in 2008, which like the Voice was just another political stunt. Apologizing for something you didn't do, that you have no recollection of, and that happened years ago is pretty meaningless. Prince Andrew should have taken note.

On the other point, the level of deprivation and the social problems that leads to in many Aboriginal communities is indisputable. I appreciate that a lot of people never get to visit these places, and if you did you'd think you were in the developing world - not Australia.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-13/nt-heatwave-tennant-creek-indigenous-residents-better-housing/101763364

The problem with thia way of thinking is it misses the point.

When you apologise you're acknowledging that the other party is hurt or angry or somehow impacted. That acknowledgement of how somebody is feeling, while it doesnt fix the wrongdoing it does offer some human care to the other party and hearing 'sorry' is usually  better tham not hearing it. In the case of the national sorry, reparations etc I think most people acknowledge that we are not personally apologising for what we or our ancestors have done (which we cannot be held responsible for) we are acknowledging that pain was caused by them and for that we are sorry. I am anyway. That's how I feel. You can call it meaningless but gestures hold meaning. They matter. They are all we have in a lot of cases where we can't undo hurt. 

[Marisawright 10,722]

16 minutes ago, HappyHeart said:

The problem with thia way of thinking is it misses the point.

When you apologise you're acknowledging that the other party is hurt or angry or somehow impacted. 

I agree and I had no problem with Kevin Rudd's apology.  The referendum and proposed advisory bodies are not about saying sorry or even making reparations.

Like I said, let's see how much the referendum and the advisory body, once established, will cost.  Government advisory bodies always cost a lot in printing, accommodation costs, admin support etc. etc.  I think the money would be much better spent paying ACTUAL reparations that make a difference to communities, and there are many First Nations people who feel the same way.

Edited May 21 by Marisawright

[simmo 21,836]

On 19/05/2023 at 11:12, HappyHeart said:

Me too. The way some people are carrying on is disgusting 

Carrying on? How?

[Parley 7,791]

15 hours ago, Marisawright said:

I think we've got all the detail we need.  It's been stated several times that it will be a purely advisory body. Its job will be to comment on how government policies affect Aboriginal people. They won't have any power.

I'm still against it.  Just window-dressing to make it look like they're fixing Aboriginal issues.  All the money that's going to be spent on the referendum, legal advice on the constitution, not to mention all the expenses of the advisory body when it's created -- trips to Canberra, junkets etc.    It would be so much better spent fixing the problems that have ALREADY been identified many many times.   

Aboriginal Activist Richard Bell agrees with you and will be voting No.

https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/why-acclaimed-aboriginal-activist-richard-bell-won-t-vote-yes-20230521-p5d9yk.html

[HappyHeart 14,320]

15 hours ago, Marisawright said:

I agree and I had no problem with Kevin Rudd's apology.  The referendum and proposed advisory bodies are not about saying sorry or even making reparations.

Like I said, let's see how much the referendum and the advisory body, once established, will cost.  Government advisory bodies always cost a lot in printing, accommodation costs, admin support etc. etc.  I think the money would be much better spent paying ACTUAL reparations that make a difference to communities, and there are many First Nations people who feel the same way.

There's a lot of money that could be better spent isn't there? Criminal really. 

[Rallyman 4,082]

41 minutes ago, HappyHeart said:

There's a lot of money that could be better spent isn't there? Criminal really. 

Anything involving government spending is always far less beneficial than if it’s private money. People don’t care on costs as it’s not their money no accountability 

[friedparsley 69]

I thought all had equality anyway.   We are one country under 3 flags.  In Australia the Australian flag cannot be flown unless the Abboriginnal flag and the Torres state flag are both flown beside it.  Three fllags flown together all equal height. Doesn't that mean eveyone is equal. ?

[unzippy 3,874]

23 hours ago, simmo said:

So, overrepresentation in the prison system. Is it because they simply commit more crime? 

Why might that be do you think?

[Lavers 1,447]

4 hours ago, Rallyman said:

Anything involving government spending is always far less beneficial than if it’s private money. People don’t care on costs as it’s not their money no accountability 

So true, I built a vessel in England for MOD to mix various powders together, should have cost £250,000 ended up over 1 Mil.

Amount of paperwork and pointless meetings were unreal.

Kept me busy though.

[simmo 21,836]

1 hour ago, unzippy said:

Why might that be do you think?

Disregard for the law? substance abuse?  

[Blue Flu 1,164]

On 21/05/2023 at 10:00, InnerVoice said:

It's got much worse in recent years with the crime no longer restricted to the 'M' suburbs. To quote one of my colleagues when we were discussing this the other day,

"They've already got a voice. You can hear it at 3am to the sound of breaking glass!"

We have been looking at houses out in Palm Cove. They've become quite pricey. Besides a few northern beaches I doubt I'd consider most other locations. But not even sure if the places listed remain crime free? 

 

[Blue Flu 1,164]

On 21/05/2023 at 10:25, InnerVoice said:

The whole sorry business (to excuse the pun) started with Kevin Rudd saying "Sorry" back in 2008, which like the Voice was just another political stunt. Apologizing for something you didn't do, that you have no recollection of, and that happened years ago is pretty meaningless. Prince Andrew should have taken note.

On the other point, the level of deprivation and the social problems that leads to in many Aboriginal communities is indisputable. I appreciate that a lot of people never get to visit these places, and if you did you'd think you were in the developing world - not Australia.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-13/nt-heatwave-tennant-creek-indigenous-residents-better-housing/101763364

It has been kept under wraps over the decades. The Aussie born, London living John Pilger wrote a book decades back called 'The Secret Country' from memory. Read it ages ago. He comes from The Left, but no matter, elegantly disclosed the disadvantage , but worse lack of any meaningful intervention by government. Pretty much left to own devices, being filed in the too hard basket. 

Since then far more in the public domain, but a lot of symbolic non solutions. 

[Blue Flu 1,164]

6 hours ago, HappyHeart said:

There's a lot of money that could be better spent isn't there? Criminal really. 

A lot of criminal activity on many fronts. Greater accountability in general badly needed and cover up's exposed. 

[Rallyman 4,082]

1 minute ago, Lavers said:

So true, I built a vessel in England for MOD to mix various powders together, should have cost £250,000 ended up over 1 Mil.

Amount of paperwork and pointless meetings were unreal.

Kept me busy though.

Going through it right now it’s the same in uk and Australia 

[InnerVoice 1,013]

2 hours ago, Lavers said:

So true, I built a vessel in England for MOD to mix various powders together, should have cost £250,000 ended up over 1 Mil.

Amount of paperwork and pointless meetings were unreal.

Kept me busy though.

A million quid - that's one expensive bucket!

[InnerVoice 1,013]

2 hours ago, Blue Flu said:

We have been looking at houses out in Palm Cove. They've become quite pricey. Besides a few northern beaches I doubt I'd consider most other locations. But not even sure if the places listed remain crime free? 

We live on the Northern Beaches and the answer to your question is 'no', although there is certainly a lot less crime here than in other parts of Cairns.

I would think long and hard about moving here if you like overseas travel because it's a bit of a cul-de-sac. You nearly always need to fly to Brisbane, or sometimes even Sydney, before you can fly abroad. Mind you, if your idea of paradise is sun, sea, sand, and it being blinking hot nearly all year round, then Cairns is the place for you! Two minutes walk from our house...

Edited May 22 by InnerVoice

[Blue Flu 1,164]

1 hour ago, InnerVoice said:

We live on the Northern Beaches and the answer to your question is 'no', although there is certainly a lot less crime here than in other parts of Cairns.

I would think long and hard about moving here if you like overseas travel because it's a bit of a cul-de-sac. You nearly always need to fly to Brisbane, or sometimes even Sydney, before you can fly abroad. Mind you, if your idea of paradise is sun, sea, sand, and it being blinking hot nearly all year round, then Cairns is the place for you! Two minutes walk from our house...

Much as I feared. But thanks for the confirmation. I did live in Cairns back in 97, but was a lot younger obviously , but even then was glad after several months to relocate. Be like jumping into the fire perhaps if was to return. 

None I knew from those days remain in Cairns. At least those I remained in contact with. All that did stay in contact where originally from elsewhere. Mostly Europe/UK/Ireland. 

 

[HappyHeart 14,320]

22 hours ago, simmo said:

Carrying on? How?

Like headless chooks. Or pork chops. Or great galahs 

[simmo 21,836]

1 hour ago, HappyHeart said:

Like headless chooks. Or pork chops. Or great galahs 

Oh 

[unzippy 3,874]

18 hours ago, simmo said:

Disregard for the law? substance abuse?  

And why might that be?

[Parley 7,791]

32 minutes ago, unzippy said:

And why might that be?

No one has ever said indigenous people are not troubled.

I doubt anyone would claim as such. Asking why doesn't help much either unless you are going to amaze us all with a solution to all their troubles.