Take the visa while it’s there and emigrate to an unknown life in a country you love, or stay where you have good, solid income in a country you don’t love?

[palmtrees]

A question I do have which I’ve read mixed answers for is is it harder to get a mortgage when on PR than when you are a citizen, and would it likely affect maternity leave etc. not being a citizen? I’ve done lots of googling but have read mixed answers! This would be a big decider for us I think.

[InnerVoice]

29 minutes ago, palmtrees said:

We’ve packed up and done this move a few times. Each time it didn’t stick for one reason or another- but not always our fault/choice and due to sponsorships ending etc. Every time we are in the UK we want to be back, when we are there we love it but miss the UK. The classic! 

So how many times have you lived in Australia already, and if you don't mind me asking - apart from your sponsorship ending - why did you return to the UK ?

Edited March 22, 2023 by InnerVoice

[palmtrees]

It was just missing the UK and family I think, missing the food, kidding ourselves with rose-tinted glasses that the UK is great etc!

The UK is great in some ways but I guess we are more outdoor people which suit Australia, we currently live in Scotland so it’s beautiful but very cold to do much!

But a big one was that we never had PR so it just felt so hard to do a lot of things. We’ve come to the conclusion there’s pros and cons to both but really worry about turning down this opportunity. I think we’ll be worried we’ve made the wrong decision either way but ideally would have liked to of waited a few years until we made the move, it’s just the risk of not being able to get PR again later on.

Edited March 22, 2023 by palmtrees

[FirstWorldProblems]

It’s better to regret something you have done than regret not doing something. 
 

Occasionally people post here that they made the move, regret it and are trapped because they can’t afford financially to move back. That doesn’t sound like your circumstance in which case…….It’s better to regret something you have done than regret not doing something. Go for it!

[InnerVoice]

3 minutes ago, palmtrees said:

It was just missing the UK and family I think, missing the food, kidding ourselves with rose-tinted glasses that the UK is great etc! The UK is great in some ways but I guess we are more outdoor people which suit Australia.
But a big one was that we never had PR so it just felt so hard to do a lot of things. We’ve come to the conclusion there’s pros and cons to both but really worry about turning down this opportunity. I think we’ll be worried we’ve made the wrong decision either way but ideally would have liked to of waited a few years until we made the move, it’s just the risk of not being able to get PR again later on.

@palmtrees I totally relate to this. I went back the UK for 3 years (2008-2011) because I was also missing 'home' at the time, and knew my mum and older relatives wouldn't be around for much longer. Fortunately I was already a citizen by then and I also had a government job to return to, so it was an easier decision. However, after a couple of years I knew I wanted to return to Australia and I've been happy here every since.

Your dilemma is that if you start a family in the UK there's no guarantee that you'll be able get back to Australia in future, and the reality is that you'll probably just stay in the UK. If you think it's a hard decision now, imagine how hard it would be to leave that established support network behind when you have a young family? Conversely, if you have a family here, you're not going to be able to go back to the UK very often 'for a fix' as you have done previously. I think the best approach is to imagine a scenario where you have to stay in one country, forever - with no opportunity to ever return to the other one. If you can answer that question from the heart then you'll be able to make this decision.

[Drumbeat]

1 hour ago, palmtrees said:

A question I do have which I’ve read mixed answers for is is it harder to get a mortgage when on PR than when you are a citizen, and would it likely affect maternity leave etc. not being a citizen? I’ve done lots of googling but have read mixed answers! This would be a big decider for us I think.

No different for a mortgage and I don’t believe there is any difference for maternity leave as long as you have been employed for the qualifying period. 
I have a friend who’s country of birth doesn’t allow dual nationality so she has been PR for over 30 years.

[Toots]

6 hours ago, Blue Flu said:

Of course the selling of $1.6 Billion worth of Australian property to Chinese has further aggravated the matter. In a time of housing stress, overseas buyers should be barred from buying housing .  

Foreign ownership of property happens in most countries.  e.g. Foreign owners hold 9.7 billions pounds worth of property in the UK.  45 billion pounds worth of property in London alone.  Shouldn't be allowed.

[Ausvisitor]

9 hours ago, Toots said:

Foreign ownership of property happens in most countries.  e.g. Foreign owners hold 9.7 billions pounds worth of property in the UK.  45 billion pounds worth of property in London alone.  Shouldn't be allowed.

Of course it should be allowed.

People should be free to buy property where they choose.

It isn't just Russia and China buying up the UK and AUS, our own billionaires and companies but huge swathes of other countries property too.

Just because we can't afford to do it ourselves doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed...

[palmtrees]

20 hours ago, Ausvisitor said:

I would agree, I run a whole practice on data management here in Sydney, we must have (not all work for me) at least 200 consultants actively working on this, and each of the other big-4 have similar numbers (in Sydney alone).

Every client I speak to is hiring data protection people at a furious rate (the only qualification at the moment seems to be able to say data protection).

It's probably the hottest career and topic in Australia at the moment - you can thank Optus and Medibank for that.

If you can't get a job in data protection in 2023 you never will, the market has never been hotter...

If course we don't (and most client orgs don't either) advertise these roles, we head hunt them and recruit direct from masters courses. If you are offshore you will almost certainly never see an advert for DP here, and if you did we'd take one look at the fact you aren't onshore and ignore the application we all need people to start yesterday not some point in the future.

If you are serious about working in that sector in AUS then get over here quickly - as a side note the sorts of salaries being paid for DP people here right now is in the 130k-180k range, so between 2&3 times what you are getting in the UK 

Ausvisitor, thank you for your advice with the demand for DP roles at the moment, it has been on my mind as I’ve heard this from others- apologies if I’m asking for too much information but a big blocker for me in getting on board with the move is fear of giving up my UK job that pays pretty well and has progression for the uncertainty. I have an unrelated degree and no masters (although I am looking at cybersecurity or law, probably cybersecurity) masters, this will take a while though so I’d hope to find a DP role beforehand. I have about 4 years DP exp but well distributed across NHS, government agencies and private companies so like to think I’m ‘relatively’ in the know, obviously no where near at the top of my game though! 
I know you said a lot of ads aren’t online- but all the ones I do see want 10+ years experience, or law degrees etc. which I don’t have.  I’ve seen the proposed reforms and the plan to introduce data subject rights amongst other changes which is exactly what I do here.

With the headhunting would you suggest just calling around agencies on arrival if we make the jump? Just really unsure where I’d start as all my contacts are in the UK, I’ve never done DP while in Oz unfortunately.

And thanks again everyone for all of your advice so far, we are leaning towards going I think! Even though yesterday it was the opposite. It will probably change tomorrow- oh the joys!

[Drumbeat]

41 minutes ago, palmtrees said:

Ausvisitor, thank you for your advice with the demand for DP roles at the moment, it has been on my mind as I’ve heard this from others- apologies if I’m asking for too much information but a big blocker for me in getting on board with the move is fear of giving up my UK job that pays pretty well and has progression for the uncertainty. I have an unrelated degree and no masters (although I am looking at cybersecurity or law, probably cybersecurity) masters, this will take a while though so I’d hope to find a DP role beforehand. I have about 4 years DP exp but well distributed across NHS, government agencies and private companies so like to think I’m ‘relatively’ in the know, obviously no where near at the top of my game though! 
I know you said a lot of ads aren’t online- but all the ones I do see want 10+ years experience, or law degrees etc. which I don’t have.  I’ve seen the proposed reforms and the plan to introduce data subject rights amongst other changes which is exactly what I do here.

With the headhunting would you suggest just calling around agencies on arrival if we make the jump? Just really unsure where I’d start as all my contacts are in the UK, I’ve never done DP while in Oz unfortunately.

And thanks again everyone for all of your advice so far, we are leaning towards going I think! Even though yesterday it was the opposite. It will probably change tomorrow- oh the joys!

https://search.jobs.wa.gov.au/page.php?pageID=160&windowUID=0&AdvertID=322109

This link is for a position with WA health, hope it helps to give you an idea of what’s around

[palmtrees]

9 minutes ago, Drumbeat said:

https://search.jobs.wa.gov.au/page.php?pageID=160&windowUID=0&AdvertID=322109

This link is for a position with WA health, hope it helps to give you an idea of what’s around

Thank you, I’ve had a read through and it looks like a really interesting role but I think I’d need to have done some further cyber security study / gain some IT knowledge to get to a role like this one unfortunately.

I have worried/ noticed a lot of the jobs in DP in Aus atm look to be quite broad with it incorporating IT, data management etc., potentially as DP isn’t ‘currently’ such a huge task for businesses as it is here with our legal response timeframes, responsibilities to keep records and conduct assessments etc. For reference the type of role I do is something like this: https://www.reed.co.uk/jobs/data-protection-manager/49770531 which I was thinking might not have a huge calling for in Aus at the moment as a lot of these responsibilities are due to GDPR laws and guidance we have to comply with or risk legal action/ huge penalties. Without this to worry about I think my current team could be a one/two man band/ or mixed into IT or Legal’s remit.
 

Anyway I digress! I’m aware I’m going way too far into my work side of things and don’t want to bore everyone with my worries on it, I’ll have to do some more research Thank you again for the link, it’s really helpful as it’s definitely where I’d like to be going long term!  

[calNgary]

Some posts have been removed for going off topic, please respect the OPs post and remember this isnt CTF.

  Cal x

[InnerVoice]

15 hours ago, palmtrees said:

A question I do have which I’ve read mixed answers for is is it harder to get a mortgage when on PR than when you are a citizen, and would it likely affect maternity leave etc. not being a citizen? I’ve done lots of googling but have read mixed answers! This would be a big decider for us I think.

You can definitely get a mortgage with PR. I don't think maternity leave would be affected because that it a right everyone has under employment law, so assuming you were legally employed you'd be entitled to it. Here is a list of PR entitlements taken straight from the Immigration & Citizenship website. Hope this helps...

https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/permanent-resident/entitlements

As a permanent resident of Australia, you generally can:

• remain in Australia indefinitely
• work and study in Australia
• enrol in Australia’s national health scheme, Medicare
• apply for bank loans to buy property
• sponsor eligible relatives for permanent residence
• apply for Australian citizenship, if eligible
• travel to and from Australia for as long as your travel facility permits.
• attend free English language classes provided by the Adult Migrant English Program
• work in New Zealand
• You may also qualify for other government benefits and services.

Unlike Australian citizens, a permanent resident generally cannot:

• have an Australian passport
• vote in Australian Government elections unless you enrolled (as a British subject) before 26 January 1984
• access student loans
• join the Australian Defence Force
• obtain ongoing work in the Australian Government
• return to Australia from overseas without a valid travel facility (you do not have automatic right of entry to Australia)

[Jon the Hat]

2 hours ago, palmtrees said:

Thank you, I’ve had a read through and it looks like a really interesting role but I think I’d need to have done some further cyber security study / gain some IT knowledge to get to a role like this one unfortunately.

I have worried/ noticed a lot of the jobs in DP in Aus atm look to be quite broad with it incorporating IT, data management etc., potentially as DP isn’t ‘currently’ such a huge task for businesses as it is here with our legal response timeframes, responsibilities to keep records and conduct assessments etc. For reference the type of role I do is something like this: https://www.reed.co.uk/jobs/data-protection-manager/49770531 which I was thinking might not have a huge calling for in Aus at the moment as a lot of these responsibilities are due to GDPR laws and guidance we have to comply with or risk legal action/ huge penalties. Without this to worry about I think my current team could be a one/two man band/ or mixed into IT or Legal’s remit.
 

Anyway I digress! I’m aware I’m going way too far into my work side of things and don’t want to bore everyone with my worries on it, I’ll have to do some more research Thank you again for the link, it’s really helpful as it’s definitely where I’d like to be going long term!  

I would say it is worth being ambitious when you arrive, as there is a shortage of talent at the moment. I was prepared to take a step backwards, but in the end with a little patience I got a role at a higher level in a new industry which ticked all the boxes for my next career step.

[Cheery Thistle]

I say do it now. You’re both young enough to start again. I’ll tell you one thing, if you have a family in the UK it will be far far harder to move. The longer you leave it, the more settled and established you will be and the harder it is to leave! 
 

 Also I wouldn’t worry too much about your job. You are skilled and hard working, you are young and can top up qualifications. I’m 42 and on to my 3rd career! There’s plenty of time. 

[Lavers]

On 22/03/2023 at 08:30, palmtrees said:

Apologies in advance for the long post but after some advice or people’s opinions, in case we are missing something or being crazy here. Myself and my partner have been back and forth from Australia for the last 7 years or so, probably have spent 4 years total over there.

Currently back in the UK, have a permanent visa application approved (186) and when we applied for said visa, intended our current life in the UK (jobs, house etc.) to be temporary until it’s granted. We’ve unexpectedly been doing ok and are reasonably happy. Would we rather live in Australia (we love the country, weather, outdoor life etc), sure…. but we both earn quite well and are comfortable in the UK at the moment, partner has own business where he’s earning what he’d earn in a week in Australia in a day in the UK, I’m on 40k at 28 which I never thought I’d earn right now, and have some promising further career progression in the next few years. We are renting a nice place in a nice area and could probably buy in a couple of years. 

 

Our end game is to be in Australia, but if we had it our way we’d do it in a few years once we’ve had a baby in the UK (with family nearby), got in a better financial position and felt completely ready, and maybe got an investment property in the UK under our belts for back up in future if ever needed. Unfortunately the visa won’t wait longer than a few months from now. 

 

For a bit more context we are both wanting to start a family soon due to age (28 F and 37 M) of my partner mainly. Also keen to get a house and settle or make a base somewhere.

 

Our permanent visa application was successful as partner’s old Aussie job agreed to sponsor the permanent visa, but if we reject it now it will be on me and some further education/ work to apply for a permanent visa in a few years when we’re ready, as all his Aussie work experience we used to get the visa will no longer be valid by then. Of course a risk exists that if the  skilled lists/ anything else changes before I have everything needed, we might not tick the right boxes in future and lose the chance altogether.

 

The other factors we are considering are that the work I do is quite niche and isn’t really a big thing in Australia at the moment (data protection), and the company he has to work for for a couple of years as a condition of the permanent visa, isn’t great so it will be a bit of a slog until he can leave and until Australia catch up in data protection to create more jobs in the field for me. In the meantime I’d most likely have to pick up unrelated work or struggle for a while to find something. I also love working remotely which I do currently, and heard this is much less common in Australia compared with the UK.

 

The big question is, do we throw this visa opportunity away, which has taken years to get and is notoriously hard to get granted and stay in the UK with the risk of not being able to apply again in future, but be able to settle for a while, have a child and get in a better financial position- or- do we say ‘you only live once’ close partner’s business, quit my job and move to australia with unknown job prospects and feeling not quite ready but loving the country we live in? 
If we had it our way, we’d put the visa ‘on hold’ for a while as our end game will always be to end up in Australia as we simply love it, as it seems crazy to jump right now but also a risk to wait and throw away this visa.

 

I know only we can truly know all the ins and outs and make the decision, but opinions are very much welcomed as we are totally stuck and worried we are missing something or the bigger picture!

 

To jump or not to jump?

 

Thank you for reading if you got this far

Hiya

like you say only you can answer that really, it depends what is important to you and your family.

I was earning a lot more money in the UK than I am in Aus, but I was also working 6/7 days a week where as in Aus I work 3 days and we can still live a comfortable enough life.

For us as a family money isn’t that important it’s about having the time together in what I believe is a better environment for raising a family.

[Lavers]

On 22/03/2023 at 21:26, Drumbeat said:

No different for a mortgage and I don’t believe there is any difference for maternity leave as long as you have been employed for the qualifying period. 
I have a friend who’s country of birth doesn’t allow dual nationality so she has been PR for over 30 years.

Correct no different regarding mortgages but for paid May leave you have to be in the country for 2 yrs.

[InnerVoice]

13 hours ago, Lavers said:

Correct no different regarding mortgages but for paid May leave you have to be in the country for 2 yrs.

@Lavers Good point!

https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/newly-arrived-residents-waiting-period?context=22191

[palmtrees]

Hi all, thanks again to everyone who’s given such fab advice, it’s so appreciated as you can imagine it’s all we talk about at the moment trying to make a decision. Doesn’t help we’re both so damn indecisive

I’m personally struggling with the fact that we really like our house/ area we’re living here for the first time ever… it kind of feels like home. I haven’t written where we actually live in the UK just to avoid giving away too much, but we live in what I feel is a (pretty nice) holiday destination in the UK and have good beaches, lovely scenery etc (for the UK anyway). The house we’re renting will be going up for sale some time in the future and while it’s a stretch I can see our futures in this house or nearby, at the moment I am so struggling to see our futures in Aus and I wish I could! Maybe as we haven’t been there for a while now. Not too long ago we’d of sold our kidneys and done just about anything to get back down under! I do miss a lot about Australia, the gorgeous scenery, generally more positive and lovely people, the smell after it rains, the weather, the birds, the coffee (!!), the beaches and bush trails, waterfalls, being able to get a doctors appointment without being number 387 in the queue at 8:30am, and McCafe/ being able to get McDonald’s breakfast all day, lol.

Re. the replies on earning potential- money, possessions and a house to us are certainly not the be all end all in life but we both grew up in struggling families and this has driven us to want to do our best for ourselves and future kids. We are keen to get a mortgage sooner rather than later. Overall money and what we’ll earn is not that important to us- but I do appreciate how money can buy freedom in some ways and would like to be comfortable. If I’m completely honest with myself rightly or wrongly, if we got settled in Aus and in the end could only afford a unit in an area we weren’t keen on, I’d be a bit sad we gave up what we had/ could of had in the UK, even with the better weather, lifestyle and beaches in Aus. The house prices/rent in Sydney are terrifying at the moment! Not sure if it’s due to drop like is predicted in the UK coming years… more research we need to spend some time on for sure.

We are going to think it over for a little while longer as we have some wiggle room before we jump- just feel so incredibly lucky to have been given this opportunity and trying to think about our future children and the lifestyle Australia could give them. Either way we’ll update this forum with what we decide because you’ve all been amazing with the advice 

Edited March 25, 2023 by palmtrees

[Lavers]

6 hours ago, palmtrees said:

at the moment I am so struggling to see our futures in Aus and I wish I could!

All the best with making a decision but you have probably just answered your question there.

We had never been to Aus before we moved here but it was always in my head for some reason to try living here.

My biggest fear of moving here was not moving here (if that makes sense). I didn’t want to end up like most the guys I worked with in 20 years time saying I wish I had done that.

Your only here once and our old life in the UK will always be there if ever we wanted to go back, but there will be no more “what ifs” as we will have at least tried living here.

We came here (Me,Wife & 2 girls 10 & 5) with no job offers, nowhere to live and didn’t know anyone. We had a plan and luckily we nailed every step of it and soon settled in.

Fast forward 3yrs we are all happy, have an extra addition to the the family who is 1 and also should have our house which we have had built finished in 6 weeks time.

If you are struggling to find reasons to move here then there’s no point fighting it, if you stay in the UK I’m sure you will still have a good life, it will just be different that’s all.

[steveshe]

On 22/03/2023 at 13:54, Bobj said:

Here we go again! Same garbage spouted when a young couple want to start a new life in a country they love.

@Blue Flujust put a sock in it, mate, all you seem to do is whinge about everyrhing Austalian and then rabbit on about global politics.

Get out of the rut and enjoy life, there’s a good lad.

Cheers, Bobj.

I agree , so much negativity all the time . When we get as bad as the UK then its time to worry,  but we are nowhere near like that . 

[Manrug]

Hi Palmtrees - your situation rang a chord with ourselves. In 1988 my wife and I were both young similar ages to yourselves, We had 2 young kids. We were doing very well in the UK. I had my dream job, a nice house within walking distance to my job and good schools.

We always had the intention of emigrating to NZ, but friend of ours visited us from Canada and sold as the idea of emigrating to Canada. We applied in 1989 and got accepted to emigrate to Canada. We sold the house and gave away or sold the furniture, etc and emigrated. We only lasted  6 months we realised we had made a mistake and came back. It was most daunting to come back but it was the best thing we ever did and this country was so good to us, I managed to retire at a very young age, my children both flourished in the UK and went on to have successful careers.

In 2023 we are now emigrating again we have our 143 visa for Australia. Sorry for the long story. The reason why I am sharing this story is we were faced with the same dilemma . We decided to take the risk and emigrate to Canada . Now in our old age and looking back we do not regret it for one moment, at the time it was tough. We returned to UK after only 6 months and we have done better in the UK then we could have done anywhere else in the world.

 

So my two pence worth is take a deep breath and go for it. If things don't work out if you decide to come back, your situation may be even better than the one you let behind.

Best of luck for whatever you decide to do.

[Bulya]

4 hours ago, Manrug said:

Hi Palmtrees - your situation rang a chord with ourselves. In 1988 my wife and I were both young similar ages to yourselves, We had 2 young kids. We were doing very well in the UK. I had my dream job, a nice house within walking distance to my job and good schools.

We always had the intention of emigrating to NZ, but friend of ours visited us from Canada and sold as the idea of emigrating to Canada. We applied in 1989 and got accepted to emigrate to Canada. We sold the house and gave away or sold the furniture, etc and emigrated. We only lasted  6 months we realised we had made a mistake and came back. It was most daunting to come back but it was the best thing we ever did and this country was so good to us, I managed to retire at a very young age, my children both flourished in the UK and went on to have successful careers.

In 2023 we are now emigrating again we have our 143 visa for Australia. Sorry for the long story. The reason why I am sharing this story is we were faced with the same dilemma . We decided to take the risk and emigrate to Canada . Now in our old age and looking back we do not regret it for one moment, at the time it was tough. We returned to UK after only 6 months and we have done better in the UK then we could have done anywhere else in the world.

 

So my two pence worth is take a deep breath and go for it. If things don't work out if you decide to come back, your situation may be even better than the one you let behind.

Best of luck for whatever you decide to do.

You’ll find Australia very different than Canada.  Think of the Australian states/territories as a franchise and hence the diversity.  As an oldie myself I wish you the best..

[InnerVoice]

On 26/03/2023 at 06:43, Lavers said:

All the best with making a decision but you have probably just answered your question there.

We had never been to Aus before we moved here but it was always in my head for some reason to try living here.

My biggest fear of moving here was not moving here (if that makes sense). I didn’t want to end up like most the guys I worked with in 20 years time saying I wish I had done that.

Your only here once and our old life in the UK will always be there if ever we wanted to go back, but there will be no more “what ifs” as we will have at least tried living here.

We came here (Me,Wife & 2 girls 10 & 5) with no job offers, nowhere to live and didn’t know anyone. We had a plan and luckily we nailed every step of it and soon settled in.

Fast forward 3yrs we are all happy, have an extra addition to the the family who is 1 and also should have our house which we have had built finished in 6 weeks time.

If you are struggling to find reasons to move here then there’s no point fighting it, if you stay in the UK I’m sure you will still have a good life, it will just be different that’s all.

@Lavers agree with you on all this, although I think it depends how long you're out here whether your 'old life' will still be waiting for you should you return.

After a couple of years you can probably slot right back in as that's pretty much working holiday territory, but any longer than that and you'll start to notice the cracks. I went back to the UK for 3 years after being here for 13 years. My immediate family were happy to see me of course, but most of my friends had moved in one way or another. It's fair enough really, you can't expect people to put their lives on hold for years and then just be able to slot back in as though you never left. There was also this unpleasant combination of apathy and resentment from those, as you said, wished they'd done it 20 years earlier, so don't expect too much sympathy should you ever return!

[ramot]

7 hours ago, Manrug said:

Hi Palmtrees - your situation rang a chord with ourselves. In 1988 my wife and I were both young similar ages to yourselves, We had 2 young kids. We were doing very well in the UK. I had my dream job, a nice house within walking distance to my job and good schools.

We always had the intention of emigrating to NZ, but friend of ours visited us from Canada and sold as the idea of emigrating to Canada. We applied in 1989 and got accepted to emigrate to Canada. We sold the house and gave away or sold the furniture, etc and emigrated. We only lasted  6 months we realised we had made a mistake and came back. It was most daunting to come back but it was the best thing we ever did and this country was so good to us, I managed to retire at a very young age, my children both flourished in the UK and went on to have successful careers.

In 2023 we are now emigrating again we have our 143 visa for Australia. Sorry for the long story. The reason why I am sharing this story is we were faced with the same dilemma . We decided to take the risk and emigrate to Canada . Now in our old age and looking back we do not regret it for one moment, at the time it was tough. We returned to UK after only 6 months and we have done better in the UK then we could have done anywhere else in the world.

 

So my two pence worth is take a deep breath and go for it. If things don't work out if you decide to come back, your situation may be even better than the one you let behind.

Best of luck for whatever you decide to do.

Good luck with your move. We retired here 20 years ago, there was a retirement visa then, had no immediate family here, wanted a bit more of an adventure and thought we would stay for 2-3 years, just not ready to go back to UK after living in Brunei as expats for 10 years. We never left! Love our retired life here, and  2 of our children followed us here.