Is it still worth it?

[pinkpom]

Having a bit of an existential crisis here - please be kind!

I lived in Australia several years ago. Loved it, great quality of life, financially better off, found the healthcare system great, lived by the beach in both WA and Sydney and just generally fell in love with Australia.

Had to return to the UK for various reasons which I won’t go in to here but they are no longer an issue. I have never felt settled in the UK and now want to return, but have picked up a partner and had a baby along the way. I still have a PR visa. I’m aware OH and baby will need a visa and have spoken to migration professionals regarding this. 

I’ve recently had a research trip back to Oz, to Queensland and Sydney, to see where we would want to move back to (have some family/friend support in both places). I’ve been horrified by how much costs have risen without it seems a corresponding rise in salaries.

I’m in healthcare (nurse) and partner is corporate. I’m aware he may well not earn the salary in Oz he earns in the UK but mine will be higher. Essentially we will be financially no better off really and certainly the Australian dream of the house by the beach is pretty much out of reach. Healthcare seems to be going the same way as the UK eg crap and difficult to access, it’s crowded in Sydney and Queensland would be difficult in other ways - namely employment prospects for OH.

I don’t really know what I’m asking for here. Reassurance that it’s still an amazing way of life and definitely worth the move, really. 
 

Anyone moved recently with success stories? There certainly still seems to be people trying - why and what’s made you do it? 
 

Sorry about the long post!!

[Marisawright]

You've hit the nail on the head, I think.  Frequently, I look at would-be migrants and wonder why they're still coming to Australia.  Australia and the UK are very different places, but I wouldn't say one is BETTER than the other -- even at the moment, when things aren't going too well in the UK it seems.  We have members who've come to Australia and love it, but equally we've had members who've gone back to the UK and think it's the best thing they ever did.  These days it's not about which is best, it's about personal happiness, I think.

When I moved to Australia, it was no-brainer.  I arrived and had three job offers within a few weeks, for excellent jobs at a more senior level than I had in the UK.  We got a lovely apartment with a pool in the Eastern Suburbs of Sydney.  We were better off in every way than we had been in the UK.  Nowadays, we see some people arriving and taking several months to find a job, and using up their savings as a result.  And if they come to Sydney, far from getting the big house with a pool, they find themselves squashed into a smaller home than they had in the UK.  However it's not all about money, is it.  If you are really homesick for Australia then maybe a bit of financial pain will be worth it?  How does your partner feel about it?  Will he have to leave family behind and will that be an issue?  Will it cause friction in your relationship if you move and it doesn't work out that well?

@Ausvisitor is one of our most recent movers and can give you an  update on Sydney.  

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Marisawright

[Toots]

I agree with everything @Marisawright says.  I read of people in the UK who have good jobs, nice lifestyle, a comfortable home in a good area who want to come to Australia with no job waiting for them and I think WHY?  Fine if you have pots of money to fall back on and you fancy a bit of an adventure but otherwise   ............  I'd be thinking very carefully as they could be throwing good money after bad.

[pinkpom]

I would have a job before I got here. Employers are snapping my hand off, to be frank ( I was slightly worried one of the hospitals wouldn’t let me leave when I visited ) but certainly I would be funding our lives on my salary for a bit until OH got a job.

Childcare would be less with the subsidy, housing costs would be more in Sydney. It would be doable but tight. I guess as long as my partner got a job fairly quickly (and I know there’s lots of jobs at the moment) we would be ok. Just not as better off as I was hoping!

We are travellers and coming for an adventure is a good way to look at it. OH is definitely up for an adventure!! We are very strong as a couple and aware that the first year or so would be tough. We’ve been honest with each other and I don’t think it would cause friction - or not anything we couldn’t get over.

It’s definitely not all about money. I like the idea of a later school start as I think we start kids too young in full time education in the UK. We’d very likely get private health insurance as a benefit once OH got a job. We are keen for a simpler life, lots of greenery and outdoorsy stuff. I’ve been looking at the upper north shore in Sydney as it seems to deliver a compromise - but no beach

I think it’s just a matter of adjusting expectations really. But then also looking at it through the lens of those adjusted expectations, if you see what I mean. 
 

Still a fair bit to digest and think about. 

[Toots]

2 minutes ago, pinkpom said:

I would have a job before I got here. Employers are snapping my hand off, to be frank ( I was slightly worried one of the hospitals wouldn’t let me leave when I visited ) but certainly I would be funding our lives on my salary for a bit until OH got a job.

Childcare would be less with the subsidy, housing costs would be more in Sydney. It would be doable but tight. I guess as long as my partner got a job fairly quickly (and I know there’s lots of jobs at the moment) we would be ok. Just not as better off as I was hoping!

We are travellers and coming for an adventure is a good way to look at it. OH is definitely up for an adventure!! We are very strong as a couple and aware that the first year or so would be tough. We’ve been honest with each other and I don’t think it would cause friction - or not anything we couldn’t get over.

It’s definitely not all about money. I like the idea of a later school start as I think we start kids too young in full time education in the UK. We’d very likely get private health insurance as a benefit once OH got a job. We are keen for a simpler life, lots of greenery and outdoorsy stuff. I’ve been looking at the upper north shore in Sydney as it seems to deliver a compromise - but no beach

I think it’s just a matter of adjusting expectations really. But then also looking at it through the lens of those adjusted expectations, if you see what I mean. 
 

Still a fair bit to digest and think about. 

 

You seem to have a realistic attitude and having a job is a huge advantage so good luck to you!  

[Bulya]

Blighty or God’s country.  Tough choice..

[Quoll]

If it ain't broke don't fix it. 

[Marisawright]

11 hours ago, pinkpom said:

We are keen for a simpler life, lots of greenery and outdoorsy stuff. I’ve been looking at the upper north shore in Sydney as it seems to deliver a compromise - but no beach

What kind of work does your husband do in 'corporate'?  One of the big downsides of corporate life in Sydney (less so in other parts of Australia) is the culture of very long hours with no overtime pay.  The official workday in many Australian businesses is 8.30 to 5.30 (not 9 to 5), but in many corporates, if you're not at your desk by 8 or leave before 6, it will negatively impact your performance review/bonus.   There's subtle pressure not to take holidays, too.  Google and you'll find plenty of discussions about how, in spite of our "laidback" reputation, Australians (especially men) work longer hours than most developed countries. 

Pick your area in Upper North Shore carefully.  It's real 'Chelsea Tractor' territory, kids go to posh private schools.  If you mean upper North West (Pennant Hills, Cherrybrook), that's a different story -- there's a lot of young families out there, but it is hot, sticky and as you say, a long way from the beach.  Check the commuting times, too (use Google maps and enter the times your oh would be likely to be traveling).

Going south would be cheaper than going North.  We lived in Oatley, which is a lovely village-like suburb (even has a village green and clock).   My MIL lived in Gymea which I also really liked.   Sydneysiders don't visit other suburbs much, and hold a lot of silly prejudices based on outdated perceptions. The St Georges area and Sutherland Shire have a bad name because of the Cronulla race riots, which were 20 years ago!!   Those suburbs can  certainly be a bit staid, but it's less upwardly mobile/what car do you drive/how much is your house worth than the North Shore, which I found a relief, frankly.  Plus it has great beaches and the fantastic National Park on your doorstep. 

 

[pinkpom]

We were actually thinking slightly further north - Hornsby, for example. The train time is 45 mins in the morning according to Google maps,  I’d guess the total commute would be about an hour - we’d have to rent close to the station. And I do know there’s a rental crisis and that might be difficult. We are prepared for the first year to be tough while we establish ourselves. That’s the same as the commute time he does here in the UK. 

I’ve done a fair bit of research and it seems a lot of companies are still offering hybrid working - 2/3 days in the office and the rest WFH. There’s a lot of chat about family friendly policies and flexibility, same as the UK. Is that not the case then? Are they just paying lip service to it? I’m reading articles about how WFH is here to stay and companies are responding to it. 

He’s in the office 2 days a week at the moment and it works well. An hour commute twice a week is fine. But if the job adverts are not being truthful and there’s still a culture of being pressured to come into the office for long hours then yeah, that wouldn’t work for us. 
 

He’s in finance but not hugely high level in a very pressured role. Mid level financial services really. 
 

Thanks for the tip about going south. My family are all north so I was concentrating there to have a bit of support from them, but I’ll have a look down there. 

[Eera]

I'd be very wary of depending on companies  allowing WFH to continue; certainly mine has been OK with it for the last couple of years but talking to managers they're about to pull the pin.  Apparently there are HSE implications for setting up home offices on an effective permanent basis.

I'm in engineering consultancy, and a few years ago my State manager pulled me into the office and effectively said "at your level you're expected to work some Saturdays unpaid, so when are you coming in."

I basically told him to f*ck right off: my husband works 7/7 in a mine and I don't have a partner at home running the house for me.  They never brought up the issue again but it does show that in some areas there is that expectation.  Saying that, we've been bought by a large international corporation and their attitude is very much work / life balance is the go, so they'll not be putting that on the table any time soon, so it might be more a specific company thing.

[kevsan]

WFH / Hybrid is still a thing and certainly more companies are open to it. There are some sections of the economy more flexible than others - i think that public sector are keen to get people in more and more.

I work for a large corporate IT company in Melbourne that has offices all over the world and works with a customers across all sectors. All are still accepting WFH / Hybrid is the current normal... I've worked for the last 6 months with a bank and it was all remote except for a 2 day workshop in Sydney that was face to face. Just about to start with a superannuation company and they are talking about up to 2 days in the office - but this is a project specific thing to get people working together and start things off rather than a mandated everyone at their desks kind of thing.

If you can, i would certainly get a WFH/hybrid clause written into any contract going forward so if things change significantly there are some protections - whether that's feasible is on a case by case basis during the negotiation stage, but its definitely a thing.

As above our company is very much work where makes sense for you... hopefully that lasts - only time will tell.

[Marisawright]

2 hours ago, pinkpom said:

There’s a lot of chat about family friendly policies and flexibility, same as the UK. Is that not the case then? Are they just paying lip service to it?

I'm not sure what the truth is post-Covid, but certainly, pre-Covid there was a LOT of chat about family-friendly policies etc, most of it bull****.     WFH may mean you spend less hours in the office, but you are still going to be stuck at a desk all hours and weekends.   It certainly depends on what field you're in and which company you're with.    I notice IT departments seem a lot more open to WFH than, say, finance departments. 

It may partly be due to the availability of skills. Some IT skills are in short supply so companies have to work hard to recruit and look after their IT staff, whereas accountants are ten-a-penny here so there's less need to make an effort, I guess!

Edited March 9, 2023 by Marisawright

[Marisawright]

@pinkpom, this may be a bit left field, but has your oh considered a career change?    As a nurse, you've got the advantage of being able to work in regional areas, where you could still afford a house with a beach/outdoorsy lifestyle.   Your oh obviously can't work in corporate outside the capital cities, but there is a big demand for people with accounting/book-keeping/tax skills in large regional centres (farmers, mining companies, logistics companies, small business) so he could do well if he set  himself up in business.  

If you look at Newcastle, there may even be companies who would need finance staff.   It's a vibrant city with a population of about 400,000.  When I arrived in Australia it was an awful, depressed working-class town and still has that reputation in Australia, but it's changed dramatically.  Housing is half the price of comparable properties in Sydney and everywhere is within a short drive. You're on the doorstep of the Hunter Valley wineries and Port Stephens with its dolphins, oysters and marvellous sand dunes. 

The good thing is that it's less than two hours' drive to the northern burbs of Sydney, so easy to visit family and he could even do the odd contract for Sydney companies.  

I used to work for a company that had a big regional centre in Newcastle. The company got taken over and the Newcastle centre got closed down, with staff being transferred to the Sydney office.  I worked with two of the senior executives, who refused to relocate their families to Sydney because they felt Newcastle was a much better lifestyle for their children, even though it meant a horrible commute to Sydney for them both.  They changed my view of Newcastle completely.

[Bulya]

1 hour ago, Marisawright said:

@pinkpom, this may be a bit left field, but has your oh considered a career change?    As a nurse, you've got the advantage of being able to work in regional areas, where you could still afford a house with a beach/outdoorsy lifestyle.   Your oh obviously can't work in corporate outside the capital cities, but there is a big demand for people with accounting/book-keeping/tax skills in large regional centres (farmers, mining companies, logistics companies, small business) so he could do well if he set  himself up in business.  

If you look at Newcastle, there may even be companies who would need finance staff.   It's a vibrant city with a population of about 400,000.  When I arrived in Australia it was an awful, depressed working-class town and still has that reputation in Australia, but it's changed dramatically.  Housing is half the price of comparable properties in Sydney and everywhere is within a short drive. You're on the doorstep of the Hunter Valley wineries and Port Stephens with its dolphins, oysters and marvellous sand dunes. 

The good thing is that it's less than two hours' drive to the northern burbs of Sydney, so easy to visit family and he could even do the odd contract for Sydney companies.  

I used to work for a company that had a big regional centre in Newcastle. The company got taken over and the Newcastle centre got closed down, with staff being transferred to the Sydney office.  I worked with two of the senior executives, who refused to relocate their families to Sydney because they felt Newcastle was a much better lifestyle for their children, even though it meant a horrible commute to Sydney for them both.  They changed my view of Newcastle completely.

One of only two places I’d live in Australia.  Oh it it was never awful and depressed and I was there in the mid 70’s. 

[GeeBee]

My partner is a nurse. I work in IT (remotely 3-4 days a week). Been here in Sydney 4.5 years and loved every minute. Live in the northern beaches. Living the dream. 
 

only downside is we rent. We’re waiting for citizenship and when that happens if we stay we need to look to buy, but in Sydney the prices are ridiculous. Currently been looking at ‘rentvesting’ in regional areas but not sure yet and fist time buyer perks are forfeited. 
 

one thing to consider as a nurse (you’ll walk into jobs): my partner’s colleagues have moved to regional hospitals through an agency on short term nursing contracts. The nurses are getting paid more than in Sydney AND free rent (they are desperate for staff). Something to consider to get a foothold and an experience. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by GeeBee

[Blue Flu]

I would not count on 

11 hours ago, Bulya said:

One of only two places I’d live in Australia.  Oh it it was never awful and depressed and I was there in the mid 70’s. 

So not quite Gods Own Country as you often like to recite then? Just two small parts worthy of living considerations in Australia. (not that I disagree) But Newcastle did have a reputation back in the day. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Blue Flu

[Blue Flu]

On 08/03/2023 at 18:36, pinkpom said:

Having a bit of an existential crisis here - please be kind!

I lived in Australia several years ago. Loved it, great quality of life, financially better off, found the healthcare system great, lived by the beach in both WA and Sydney and just generally fell in love with Australia.

Had to return to the UK for various reasons which I won’t go in to here but they are no longer an issue. I have never felt settled in the UK and now want to return, but have picked up a partner and had a baby along the way. I still have a PR visa. I’m aware OH and baby will need a visa and have spoken to migration professionals regarding this. 

I’ve recently had a research trip back to Oz, to Queensland and Sydney, to see where we would want to move back to (have some family/friend support in both places). I’ve been horrified by how much costs have risen without it seems a corresponding rise in salaries.

I’m in healthcare (nurse) and partner is corporate. I’m aware he may well not earn the salary in Oz he earns in the UK but mine will be higher. Essentially we will be financially no better off really and certainly the Australian dream of the house by the beach is pretty much out of reach. Healthcare seems to be going the same way as the UK eg crap and difficult to access, it’s crowded in Sydney and Queensland would be difficult in other ways - namely employment prospects for OH.

I don’t really know what I’m asking for here. Reassurance that it’s still an amazing way of life and definitely worth the move, really. 
 

Anyone moved recently with success stories? There certainly still seems to be people trying - why and what’s made you do it? 
 

Sorry about the long post!!

I'd suggest if working mainstream the quality of life has deteriorated over several years. Life is not more relaxed in Australia , we have about the same crime stats, high rate of drugs, a lot of mental health issues that has increasingly become recognized, ambulance ramping, nurses protesting, same with teachers and police.  indeed we have among the highest priced housing and costs in the world. 

But I know most only want reassurance so won't say too much, except I think it more a country for people outside of UK /EU these days. Better placed in some cases for those from the neighbourhood, due to a range of reasons, that don't necessarily apply to UK. 

 

[Ausvisitor]

Wading in to this discussion.

We had a much better life (in terms of "keeping up with the Jones") in the UK. Huge house, nice cars well paid job.

Moving to Oz (Sydney) for the adventure we managed to retain one of the three (the well paid job) but as all the other costs have rocketed we are much worse off (don't cry for us though we aren't in poverty, we just aren't saving as much).

Sydney is great but if you are moving to escape the London rat race look elsewhere I can't see much difference. WFH is being faded out for a number of reasons (won't ever go back to full office life though)

1) they are about to enact legislation that makes your employer responsible if you get a "workplace injury" even if that workspace is your bedroom 

2) most orgs have instigated "glue days" or "core days" basically 3 days a week you are expected in the office (note these generally include Monday and Friday)

3) the quality of the training the younger team gets is abysmal so we need people to be together

 

If you are basing your plans on WFH be very careful I reckon what most people call WFH will be gone by XMAS (I sit on the workplace planning exec for the company I am with and that's over 15k people)

[Bulya]

3 hours ago, Blue Flu said:

I would not count on 

So not quite Gods Own Country as you often like to recite then? Just two small parts worthy of living considerations in Australia. (not that I disagree) But Newcastle did have a reputation back in the day. 

It was fantastic then, different now.  Got lost last time I drive up there in the dark it’s changed so much..

Edited March 10, 2023 by Bulya
Typo

[pinkpom]

Thanks so much for the replies everyone. You’ve given me lots to think about.

@Ausvisitor if you don’t mind me asking - where did you live in the UK? We are in the south east, so costs are very high in the UK anyway, but yes I’m totally aware how high costs are particularly in Sydney. Housing and food would be higher for sure. I’m just wondering if we would notice the increase as much as someone who moved from regional UK. 

We have neither a big house (just a standard 3 bed) or a nice car, but to be honest we’re not very interested in cars (totally happy with cheap but reliable second hand) and are aware we’d have to live in a unit while starting out. We live a fairly simple life in the UK and would be looking to continue that. My salary would pretty much double by moving over so we could take a little bit of a hit on OH’s and still be slightly better off financially particularly with the childcare subsidy I think. Just been having a conversation with my cousin about rates and our council tax works out double to what hers are in Queensland!

I think I’m pivoting to maybe Brisbane. Also have some family and friends nearby. I don’t think OH would go for a career change, but I will speak to him about everything that’s been said on here. I’ll also get him to look at maybe doing a qualification over here that might lead to some better job opportunities. 3 days in the office would be ok but we’d need to look carefully at the commute times.
 

@GeeBee we would also think about rentvesting! It’s interesting how rent prices (although they’re astronomical) don’t really translate to mortgages, so you can rent a house for much less than buying. I suppose it’s because they are mortgage free. How did you find the move and setting up? Do you have children? 

[Marisawright]

7 minutes ago, pinkpom said:

we would also think about rentvesting! It’s interesting how rent prices (although they’re astronomical) don’t really translate to mortgages, so you can rent a house for much less than buying

You are absolutely right, but it's not because the rented places are mortgage-free. Usually they have big mortgages, in fact.  The tax system here encourages people to buy property and rent it out.  The snag is that the main tax benefits come from owning a property that's less than 5 years old, so a lot of investors buy new and sell 5 years later (at which time it's more likely to be sold to an owner occupier).  If you're renting, it means you're likely to have to move on. That's the main downside of rentvesting.

[Ausvisitor]

In answer to your question, Camberley in Surrey in a pretty large 4 bed on around half an acre plot.

To get that within the same commuting distance of the city offices in Sydney, you are looking at 3m+ (so about 1.75m GBP)

[Blue Flu]

On 10/03/2023 at 11:43, Bulya said:

It was fantastic then, different now.  Got lost last time I drive up there in the dark it’s changed so much..

I agree it has changed almost beyond belief. The ruthlessness that became all too evident in London during the eighties and ninties, that in fact drove me out, is in full swing in OZ now. Greed and self interest now prominent,

I'm shocked how the drug cartels hold such sway and few seem to care. Drug making has become mainstream and see it several times a day in very middle class localities. Like I say, no interest from those who could make a difference. It is everywhere in WA anyway and even picked up by tourists after a few days arrive at the conclusion we have a serios drug problem or as a younger European that stayed with us recently, that Perth is full of crack heads. A certain ethnic group heavily involved. 

Sad thing being of course is that the present situation is enticing those from other places to WA which must result in less than desirable circumstances further down the road. 

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Blue Flu

[Ausvisitor]

Not seen any indication of a drug culture in Sydney at all, or Melbourne.

Some pockets as there always will be, but it's no where near the US or UK.

I think maybe @Blue Flu needs to move to a better locality if they are seeing this level of drug culture as it certainly isn't the norm

[Toots]

5 minutes ago, Ausvisitor said:

Not seen any indication of a drug culture in Sydney at all, or Melbourne.

Some pockets as there always will be, but it's no where near the US or UK.

I think maybe @Blue Flu needs to move to a better locality if they are seeing this level of drug culture as it certainly isn't the norm

Maybe Perth is particularly bad as far as the drug culture is concerned.  Either that or Blue Flu lives in an area rife with the manufacturing and selling of drugs and apparently nobody can do a thing about it which seems very strange to me.  There are drugs here too but same as anywhere else a certain type seem to be involved and the police hopefully are on top of it.  Certainly nothing like that going on in our neck of the woods.