Commuting to Sydney

[northernmanc]

Hi,

I’m seeking some guidance on commutable areas around Sydney.  I currently have about an hours commute into London and whilst I would love to reduce that when I move to Sydney, I know it’s not going to be realistic with the prices of houses.  I’m looking for an area that I would call leafy with about an hours commute into Sydney, ideally by train, and within about a 30 minute drive to the coast.  
 

I only really know Sydney itself and want to start looking on Realestate for houses but not knowing the areas I don’t know if they’ll be nice or not.  I have a budget of around the $2 - $2.5 and am hoping that if I go slightly further out I could find a nice property with a garden.  I probably won’t be asked to work from the office everyday, hence I won’t mind a longer commute but just want to find the nice areas to look at.

All help would be more than appreciated at this stage in my planning.

[Marisawright]

The 30 minute drive to the coast is what creates the challenge.  If you were willing to accept being a long way from the beach, you'd have a much wider choice.  That said, the further inland you go in Sydney, the hotter and stickier it gets, so personally I'd say, stick to your criteria.  Note that going south of the Harbour is cheaper than going north, in general.  Also public transport to the north coast is mainly buses (or the ferry) so a lot of people end up driving to work, with all the hassle that involves. People who love the Northern Beaches lifestyle will tell you it's worth it  -- I'm not a big beach person so it's not worth it for me!

An hour's commute by train is easy to work out, just look at the train timetables (https://transportnsw.info/travel-info/ways-to-get-around/train#/)

I suggest looking at the Illawarra line. The suburbs from Penshurst onwards get quite leafy and open, and you are very close to the coast and to lots of parks.  I lived in Oatley which I loved; it has a real village feel to it, which is unusual for Sydney (most suburbs outside the inner ring are rather bland and faceless).  The train commute was about 40 minutes; it's about 20 minutes drive to the CBD early on Sunday morning, but over 2 hours in peak hour.

https://www.realestate.com.au/nsw/oatley-2223/

If you're willing to consider a townhouse or duplex (I've forgotten all my British property terms but I think you'd call a townhouse a maisonette and a duplex is two properties on one block, semi-detached), then you'll widen your options. 

Once you cross the Georges River on the Illawarra line, you're into 'leafy' territory but you also get more for your money.  The downside is that you have fewer amenities -- you're going to have to drive a long way for your groceries.  Places like Como, Bonnet Bay, Kareela.  Also be alert for flood risk!  

Check out homely.com.au for suburb reviews.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Marisawright

[Marisawright]

I should add that another of your challenges will be the fact that all real estate agents in Sydney are crooks.  You'll notice, when searching on realestate.com.au, that prices are often not quoted.  Either that, or the property is being sold by auction.  When you enquire about the price, they will give you a figure, but it's a lie.  They always, always, always under-quote. 

The tactic (as they explain it to the person selling the house) is that they tempt the buyers with a low price, then once you've fallen in love with the place, they'll be able to negotiate the price up to the figure the seller really wants. The result, as anyone with any sense would know, is that the pretence creates endless frustration and wastes everybody's time. 

There is a law against under-quoting, but all that has achieved is that real estate agents will never put the figure in writing.  If they tell you verbally, it's your word against theirs so they're safe. 

[Skani]

Another possibility is the North Shore.  The Real Estate "Sold"  page will often show the price of recently sold properties.  For example,  if you select a suburb like Turramurra there are some houses with gardens in your price range and a 40 minute train journey to Central Station. 

  https://www.realestate.com.au/sold/in-turramurra,+nsw+2074/list-1?includeSurrounding=false&activeSort=solddate

[Toots]

21 minutes ago, Skani said:

Another possibility is the North Shore.  The Real Estate "Sold"  page will often show the price of recently sold properties.  For example,  if you select a suburb like Turramurra there are some houses with gardens in your price range and a 40 minute train journey to Central Station. 

  https://www.realestate.com.au/sold/in-turramurra,+nsw+2074/list-1?includeSurrounding=false&activeSort=solddate

I'm now way out of touch re the cost of houses in Sydney but just had a look at the cost of houses where we used to live in North Ryde.  Good grief!  We lived very happily there for years but the prices are now just ridiculous and I really can't see how they are worth that sort of money.

At least here in Tassie you get your money's worth.  Houses here are clearly advertised for sale with the price and sell in approx 3/4 weeks sometimes quicker than that.  Sydney is a rip off but I supposes that's where the work is.

[Marisawright]

30 minutes ago, Skani said:

Another possibility is the North Shore.  The Real Estate "Sold"  page will often show the price of recently sold properties.  For example,  if you select a suburb like Turramurra there are some houses with gardens in your price range and a 40 minute train journey to Central Station. 

  https://www.realestate.com.au/sold/in-turramurra,+nsw+2074/list-1?includeSurrounding=false&activeSort=solddate

Wow I'm surprised to hear there's anything on the North Shore that's similar pricing to the areas I mentioned down south.  Glancing at some of the $2m properties on that link, though, I can see that you'd have to drive or bus to the station rather than walk, so that has to be kept in mind.  

[Toots]

35 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

Wow I'm surprised to hear there's anything on the North Shore that's similar pricing to the areas I mentioned down south.  Glancing at some of the $2m properties on that link, though, I can see that you'd have to drive or bus to the station rather than walk, so that has to be kept in mind.  

The train takes 25 mins from North Ryde into the city via Chatswood.  From where we lived we would have to get a bus to the station.  I just took the bus from outside our house into the city which took approx 35 minutes depending on traffic and if there were any holdups on the freeway or harbour bridge.

[northernmanc]

Thanks for these comments its most appreciated.  

As mentioned my knowledge of Sydney isn't great beyond the airport to the CBD and Market Street down to Circular Quay and  the ferry trip to Manly so I just wonder whether there's a big difference in terms of living North vs South and whether there are nicer suburbs in the North or South or if they're about the same ?  

I love the beach but my wife isn't a huge fan hence why being close to the beach isn't a priority although we would like to be 30-35 mins drive so we can go for a walk when we want too.

Coming from London where my commute is by train everyday, the thought of getting a bus isn't great, so are these express buses/coaches or just regular buses and at peak times do they tend to get overcrowded etc ?

It's a fun time to plan, but the house prices do scare me but you only live once and with more flexible working, it does open up a wider selection of areas than otherwise might have been there if I had to commute everyday.

 

[FirstWorldProblems]

This is a quick primer on the Sydney region https://www.livingin-australia.com/where-to-live-in-sydney/

A quick comment on beaches as I think it’s worth keeping access in mind as well as proximity. 
Our favourite beaches are in the north shore area - Balmoral and Clontarf. 20 years ago when we left Sydney for the U.K. you could park at each of these easily and normally in the main car park.  With each passing year (we visit annually) the parking has become harder and harder and now unless you are there super early, I find myself dropping everyone off and having to park 15-20min walk away.  on top of the traffic to get there it makes the whole thing a hassle rather than a delight.   I’m sure not all beaches are like that and local knowledge will be key. 

[Marisawright]

4 hours ago, northernmanc said:

I just wonder whether there's a big difference in terms of living North vs South and whether there are nicer suburbs in the North or South or if they're about the same ?  

You'll get a lot of opinions about Sydney from Sydneysiders themselves, but like in any city, there are prejudices.  For my first 25 years in Sydney (yes, I do mean 25), I thought civilisation ended about Manly to the north, Summer Hill to the West and Maroubra to the South.  It wasn't until I met my husband that I moved further west for a while, and eventually down south, and discovered there were some great places outside the inner burbs. I'm sure I still have blind spots, but here's my summary:

The North Shore is the posh side of the Harbour.   The Lower North Shore (closer to the Harbour) is full of Sydney's equivalent of Sloane Rangers, but it also has nice restaurants and pubs etc and is very handy for the city, if you don't mind living in a flat.  Upper North Shore is executives in big houses.  The Northern Beaches are a bit more of a mix, because there's also a sizeable population of surfers and, I believe, it's popular with Brits because of proximity to the beach -- however getting to the city is a pain as there are no trains, only buses (which are actually quite fast when everything's going well, but of course they're more subject to traffic holdups and weather than trains).

South of the Harbour, you have to distinguish between the East and the West.   In the Eastern suburbs you have an eclectic mix of super-posh and backpackers and nothing in between.  I loved living there but it's unaffordable these days and the public transport sucks, unless you're close to  Bondi Junction station.  The Eastern Suburbs stretch to about Maroubra.

The Western suburbs are divided into Inner West and the rest.  The Inner West is where trendy young professionals live.  Lively, everything on your doorstep. Hard to say where the exact boundary is, because it keeps moving as house prices rise.  I'd say as far out as Five Dock and Concord still have quite an "inner west' vibe about them and would be within your time limit.

The outer West is beyond your 30 minute limit anyway, but for completeness: it's popularly seen as being full of bogans (Australian word for chavs). There are certainly some rough suburbs out there, but there are some nice pockets and it's cheaper to live.  he downside is that it gets bloody hot in summer -- several degrees hotter than the coast -- and the trains are super-busy.  

The Southern suburbs are seen as rather boring and ordinary. They used to be seen as very Anglo-saxon but Hurstville, for instance, is so Chinese the restaurants don't even have menus in English, and several suburbs in the St Georges area are becoming quite Middle Eastern.  

[Marisawright]

4 hours ago, northernmanc said:

I love the beach but my wife isn't a huge fan hence why being close to the beach isn't a priority although we would like to be 30-35 mins drive so we can go for a walk when we want too.

Coming from London where my commute is by train everyday, the thought of getting a bus isn't great, so are these express buses/coaches or just regular buses and at peak times do they tend to get overcrowded etc ?

As @FirstWorldProblems says, it's not the drive to the beach that's the problem, it's getting parked.  I've had similar problems at the beaches on the North Shore and the Eastern suburbs. It has often taken me longer to park than it did to get there. It's especially annoying if you've gone to the beach to cool off;  you get to the beach, park, go and have a nice cool swim, then get all hot and sweaty again schlepping back to the car. 

When we lived in Oatley, we used to drive to the Botany Bay beaches (Brighton, Dolls Point) in about 20 minutes and parking was fairly easy.  Botany Bay beaches are not as impressive as the harbour beaches or ocean beaches (no surf) so they're less popular, but they do have white sand and they are a great place for a long walk. If you want more of a resort-style beach suburb, note that Cronulla has a train station near the beach.

As for the buses:  yes, there are express buses from some parts of Sydney and the service varies from place to place.  For instance, I used to catch an express bus from Randwick to the city.  However I had to walk back two stops to catch the bus, because if I waited at the stop near my home, the bus would be full before it reached me.  On the other hand, I used to catch the express bus from Naremburn (lower north shore) and always got a seat.  As another example, when I lived in Five Dock, the buses were not express, I always got a seat but traffic made the journey time unpredictable. 

[FirstWorldProblems]

21 hours ago, Marisawright said:

when I lived in Five Dock, the buses were not express, I always got a seat but traffic made the journey time unpredictable. 

@northernmanc this is another good example of the importance of local knowledge. I lived in the next suburb over, Drummoyne, which is separated from Five Dock by Victoria Road, a main artery from the western suburbs.  Catching a bus on Victoria road was a nightmare.  They came every few minutes but there was never any room on them.  I gave up and took the ferry even though it was twice the journey time and eventually bought a motorbike and used that instead.   Sorry to add to the number of factors to consider, but I think it’s worth bearing in mind. 
 

If proximity to beaches becomes less important then it might be worth looking at the new light rail network. Suburbs proximate to that would make for a good commute. 

[GrandpaGrumble]

Stanwell Park is leafy, on the beach, 70 minutes on the train to Central, and within your price bracket.  Not many facilities though.  Helensburgh, about 10 minutes drive inland, has more facilities and is also about 10 minutes closer by train but probably isn't as nice (though I don't really know the place).

The trains are extremely slow and fairly cramped / uncomfortable, but not particularly crowded by UK standards except possibly at the very peak of the rush hour.

[Tychen]

$2-2.5m is a healthy budget in today's market. You'll definitely find places that tick all of the boxes. Within the range of possibilities, the trade off will be between commute and coast. One question is, does "coast" mean ocean only, or can it include river/harbour to you? 

To give you a concrete example: the northern end of the Inner West, close to the river/harbour, is popular with British migrants / returning expats because they tick many of the same boxes you have. Prices vary, but $2.5m can probably get you a reasonable house with a garden, though on a small plot (<500sqm), around Concord / North Strathfield / Homebush South, all of which are reasonably leafy areas with neat villages, local cafes etc etc - this is the far end of the Inner West per MarisaWright's formulation, before it shades into (proper) Western Sydney. Your commute into the City will be around 15 minutes from Strathfield station (which is a major interchange about 10-15 minute walk from Homebush South), or 5 minutes longer if you use Concord West / North Strathfield stations. You may or may not get a seat, but it won't matter for such a short trip. Strathfield has express trains about every 2-3 minutes at peak hour. Where this area might fall down for you is beach proximity. The nearest ocean beaches are the ones on Botany Bay, such as Ramsgate Beach, which is about 30 minutes drive away on a typical weekend, but the other side of this bay is the airport and oil refineries, not the prettiest scenery. To get to any other reasonable ocean beach, let's say Bondi Beach or Balmoral Beach, you will only make it within 30 minutes when traffic is quiet (and realistically it'll be more like 45 minutes on say a Saturday morning). The consolation prize is that you are only a few minutes drive from reasonably pretty bay/harbour front areas, including a few river beaches, such as around Hen & Chicken Bay, Cabarita Beach or Abbotsford.

At the other end of the trade-off between commute and beach, I second Oatley - also Penshurst and Mortdale (in between). These are popular areas for British migrants / returning expats, because they tick most of the same boxes you have. You can get a reasonable to nice house with a garden - possibly even on a fairly large plot. It's not as trendy as the inner west, but there are leafy parts (especially in the heritage conservation areas). The part of Oatley closer to the water is "leafy" in a different sense: it essentially shades into wilderness here. You are around 35-40 minutes from the City by train. Trains are frequent at peak hour - maybe every 5 minutes. You are only a few minutes from the riverfront (Georges River, not Parramatta River) or Ramsgate Beach, and you will easily get to the excellent beaches around the Cronulla peninsula in sub 30 minutes. The Royal National Park is also sub 30 minutes from this area.