Confused UK

[Jes11]

I've been looking on this site for a few days now and am very impressed with the help provided especially from Marisawright. Our  children want us to move to Australia to join our daughter who has PR. I'm currently aged 65 and my wife is 63.Can we apply for a subclass 143 offshore or do we have to have held the Investor visa since 2018? Our only other option seems to be the subclass 864. Am I right in thinking that we have to go to Australia to apply for this and then have to stay there basically as an unlawful resident on a bridging visa until the visa is processed? Our  children have had a discussion with an Agent who says the 864 process takes 3 to 4 years. The government waiting times site appears to suggest 6 to 7 years, but others say it could be 10 to 15 years. I'm confused. Marisa, could you help or could you recommend an agent? 

[wrussell]

If you are on a bridging visa you are not unlawful.

From what you have posted, you do not qualify for an 864. Any of the registered migration agents who post on this forum could sort it for you.

[Marisawright]

4 hours ago, Jes11 said:

Our  children have had a discussion with an Agent who says the 864 process takes 3 to 4 years. The government waiting times site appears to suggest 6 to 7 years, but others say it could be 10 to 15 years. I'm confused. Marisa, could you help or could you recommend an agent? 

The agent who said it takes 3 to 4 years is a con artist.  There are many reputable agents out there, but unfortunately there are some really shonky ones who will say anything to get your business. It's an outright lie.

The government waiting times site tells you how long applicants HAVE BEEN waiting for the visas they're processing CURRENTLY.  In other words, they are currently processing applications received in 2016.  There was a massive rise in the number of applications from 2017, but they didn't increase the annual quota, so the waiting times have just got longer and longer and longer every year.  If you apply now, you'll be waiting 15 years easily.  Here's a calculator where you can input your application date and find out when you're likely to get the visa:

https://www.gm-parent-visas.com/visa-processing-time-calculator/

As Westly says, if you are on a bridging visa you are not unlawful.  You are legally entitled to reside in Australia on a bridging visa.  However you are always just a visitor/temporary resident. You don't get any of the rights or benefits of a permanent resident or citizen, like pensions, aged care, cheap prescriptions, etc.  You have to apply for permission every time you want to leave the country.  You pay a hefty penalty if you want to buy a home (and the rates have just gone up). If you're currently residing in the UK and you come straight here, then you're lucky because you'll be entitled to Medicare so that's one silver lining.   On the other hand, as a Brit you're unlucky because your state pension will be frozen at whatever rate it is when you leave the UK, forever (and you can imagine how much it will be worth by the time you're 80).

Westly (who posted above) is a reputable agent.  So is Go Matilda whose calculator I linked to.  Also Suncoast Migration.  Bear in mind, though, that it's a migration agent's job to offer you visa options to get to Australia.  It's not their job to advise you on tax implications, benefits, pensions or the downsides of trying to live on a bridging visa. 

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Marisawright

[Jes11]

Thanks Marisa, that's really helpful and I should have said that I won't be starting the process until my son moves to Australia in two years time when I will be 67. I have contacted Go Matilda, and am waiting to hear from them. I'm very happy to pay an agent to advise me on this, but I just want to hear the truth about waiting times etc.

[Tulip1]

1 hour ago, Jes11 said:

Thanks Marisa, that's really helpful and I should have said that I won't be starting the process until my son moves to Australia in two years time when I will be 67. I have contacted Go Matilda, and am waiting to hear from them. I'm very happy to pay an agent to advise me on this, but I just want to hear the truth about waiting times etc.

All the agents that post on here are highly regarded and I wouldn’t doubt for a second that they would all be completely truthful to you.  

[wrussell]

A few notes on 'family' and other visas:

Some years ago the government tried to delete a range of family visas but the senate blocked the legislation.

The minister for racialism trumped this administratively by dribbling out a few visas each year, which has resulted in glacial processing rates.

Processing inertia extends to various other visa subclasses, due to the impunity  applying to immigration department machinations.

[Jes11]

Thank you for that Jadgit, I hadn't heard of that one and it may be just what we need. I will discuss it with Go Matilda when I speak to them.

[Jon the Hat]

On 15/10/2022 at 14:11, Jes11 said:

I've been looking on this site for a few days now and am very impressed with the help provided especially from Marisawright. Our  children want us to move to Australia to join our daughter who has PR. I'm currently aged 65 and my wife is 63.Can we apply for a subclass 143 offshore or do we have to have held the Investor visa since 2018? Our only other option seems to be the subclass 864. Am I right in thinking that we have to go to Australia to apply for this and then have to stay there basically as an unlawful resident on a bridging visa until the visa is processed? Our  children have had a discussion with an Agent who says the 864 process takes 3 to 4 years. The government waiting times site appears to suggest 6 to 7 years, but others say it could be 10 to 15 years. I'm confused. Marisa, could you help or could you recommend an agent? 

I hope your comments re Marisa mean you have already considered this, and I am sure it is tough if both (all?) of your children live (or will live) in Australia, but do make sure you are doing this because it is right for you. We all tend to idealise what it will be like - spending time with the kids and grandkids, but the reality may be you only see them once very few weeks (we all have busy lives) and cannot afford to live nearby, or the compromise to do so makes you miserable.  You will be giving up your home and friends (they generally won't visit even if they say they will with the best of intentions.)

It might all be brilliant and make you happy for the rest of your days, but you must consider it might not.

[Steve Elliott]

On 15/10/2022 at 16:11, Jes11 said:

I've been looking on this site for a few days now and am very impressed with the help provided especially from Marisawright. Our  children want us to move to Australia to join our daughter who has PR. I'm currently aged 65 and my wife is 63.Can we apply for a subclass 143 offshore or do we have to have held the Investor visa since 2018? Our only other option seems to be the subclass 864. Am I right in thinking that we have to go to Australia to apply for this and then have to stay there basically as an unlawful resident on a bridging visa until the visa is processed? Our  children have had a discussion with an Agent who says the 864 process takes 3 to 4 years. The government waiting times site appears to suggest 6 to 7 years, but others say it could be 10 to 15 years. I'm confused. Marisa, could you help or could you recommend an agent? 

Jes - You mention the investor visa. That's the specific area in which I specialise.  If eligible, an investor visa potentially has several advantages over the parent or family visas. It really depends on your individual circumstances. While the ag cap for some of these streams is generally 54, exceptions are possible and there is one stream which has no upper age limit, yet requires a significant investment to be eligible.

[Jes11]

4 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

I hope your comments re Marisa mean you have already considered this, and I am sure it is tough if both (all?) of your children live (or will live) in Australia, but do make sure you are doing this because it is right for you. We all tend to idealise what it will be like - spending time with the kids and grandkids, but the reality may be you only see them once very few weeks (we all have busy lives) and cannot afford to live nearby, or the compromise to do so makes you miserable.  You will be giving up your home and friends (they generally won't visit even if they say they will with the best of intentions.)

It might all be brilliant and make you happy for the rest of your days, but you must consider it might not.

Thanks for that Jon, it's the sort of advice everyone in my position needs to read. We realise that moving to Australia is really a big ask of us, but family bonds are very strong.

[Tulip1]

5 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

I hope your comments re Marisa mean you have already considered this, and I am sure it is tough if both (all?) of your children live (or will live) in Australia, but do make sure you are doing this because it is right for you. We all tend to idealise what it will be like - spending time with the kids and grandkids, but the reality may be you only see them once very few weeks (we all have busy lives) and cannot afford to live nearby, or the compromise to do so makes you miserable.  You will be giving up your home and friends (they generally won't visit even if they say they will with the best of intentions.)

It might all be brilliant and make you happy for the rest of your days, but you must consider it might not.

Agree it’s vital it’s the right thing for the parents.  I picked up on the ‘our children want us to move’ bit.  Always a bit of a red flag when you read that rather than ‘we would very much like to move’  Hopefully it’s what they all want.  

[Jes11]

Good spot Tulip

[ramot]

Something I’ve noticed over the years is that very few if any parents who move to Australia give an update on their move, whether it was the right thing to have done or the wrong decision.

So I am writing this from a parents point of view.

I know I am in a slightly different situation, as we moved to Australia  after working in Brunei, when my husband retired, leaving our three children in UK. At age 60 it was perhaps easy to establish a good life and friendships here, as we had already moved on from our old village. Harder probably for most parents to leave long term friends and life behind to join their family in a completely new country.

Fast forward 19 years, we are lucky that 2 of our children followed us to Australia, so we have family support and a friendship group, but I do wonder if they hadn’t moved here, if we would have to seriously consider moving back to UK to be nearer to them as we are definitely getting older, and although still fairly healthy, problems are arising, and there is a lot of reassurance that they are in the same country. Friends are fine for support, but over the last couple of years, the reality is that several have sadly died, and others are facing increasing health problems, and relying more on their families, so family backup becomes more important. 

So although it is a very very difficult decision for many parents to leave their established lives in UK, and lots of posters suggest quite rightly that it seems children driven, and not what the parents want, it’s worth considering what I have written as an older parent, who didn’t perhaps really think through the distance involved living apart as we come to terms with getting older, and the comfort of having family near. There are obviously no right or wrong decisions, just careful thought needed.

 

[Jes11]

Thanks for that Ramot. At the end of the day, there is no clear black or white, right or wrong decision, just a shade of grey.

[Marisawright]

10 hours ago, ramot said:

So although it is a very very difficult decision for many parents to leave their established lives in UK, and lots of posters suggest quite rightly that it seems children driven, and not what the parents want, it’s worth considering what I have written as an older parent, who didn’t perhaps really think through the distance involved living apart as we come to terms with getting older, and the comfort of having family near. 

That is true, however the situation is complicated now because parents who come to Australia now are stuck on a bridging visa in Australia, possibly for the rest of their lives. So while they will have the comfort of having their childen near, they'll lose all access to government support (other than reciprocal Medicare).  In their mid-sixties, I'm sure Jes11 doesn't want to think about getting frail and dying, but it happens to all of us.  How will they cope without access to aged care systems?  Willl  they be able to afford private care?

As you say, it's a very difficult situation and there is no right or wrong, especially as it's very individual.   I have one friend who moved to Melbourne to be with her children and while she misses London dreadfully, she says it's worth it to be near her daughter and grandchildren.  She lives in the next suburb from them.   On the other hand, I have another friend who moved to Sydney who wishes they hadn't made the move.  They had a gorgeous beach villa in Spain and now live in a small house two hours' drive from their children (all they could afford in Sydney). Even with the smaller home, they have to budget carefully as the move has eaten up so much of their savings. Luckily they came when they were still handing out PR visas, so they will get the Australian pension soon, and that will make life easier -- but compared to their fairly lavish lifestyle in Spain, it's a sorry existence.  

Housing affordability is an important thing to research, unless moving in with the children.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Marisawright

[DrDougster]

16 hours ago, Marisawright said:

That is true, however the situation is complicated now because parents who come to Australia now are stuck on a bridging visa in Australia, possibly for the rest of their lives. So while they will have the comfort of having their childen near, they'll lose all access to government support (other than reciprocal Medicare).  In their mid-sixties, I'm sure Jes11 doesn't want to think about getting frail and dying, but it happens to all of us.  How will they cope without access to aged care systems?  Willl  they be able to afford private care?

As you say, it's a very difficult situation and there is no right or wrong, especially as it's very individual.   I have one friend who moved to Melbourne to be with her children and while she misses London dreadfully, she says it's worth it to be near her daughter and grandchildren.  She lives in the next suburb from them.   On the other hand, I have another friend who moved to Sydney who wishes they hadn't made the move.  They had a gorgeous beach villa in Spain and now live in a small house two hours' drive from their children (all they could afford in Sydney). Even with the smaller home, they have to budget carefully as the move has eaten up so much of their savings. Luckily they came when they were still handing out PR visas, so they will get the Australian pension soon, and that will make life easier -- but compared to their fairly lavish lifestyle in Spain, it's a sorry existence.  

Housing affordability is an important thing to research, unless moving in with the children.

But, if they're British, I suspect they could no longer live in their Spanish villa given the sh1t5how of the last decade of UK policy? There was a bit of loophole you could get through in France if you were quick but many Brits who were planning on retirement in Europe no longer have that option. Indeed, many of them seemingly voted for it!

[Marisawright]

1 hour ago, DrDougster said:

But, if they're British, I suspect they could no longer live in their Spanish villa given the sh1t5how of the last decade of UK policy

Not at all. Anyone who did the right thing and registered for residency when they first moved to Spain wasn’t affected by Brexit. Problems arose because it was too easy for Brits to live in Spain without bothering to register and they were the ones who got caught out

[DrDougster]

4 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

Not at all. Anyone who did the right thing and registered for residency when they first moved to Spain wasn’t affected by Brexit. Problems arose because it was too easy for Brits to live in Spain without bothering to register and they were the ones who got caught out

Not sure why registering for residency was "the right thing" in a European community. I think maybe there's also an argument for "needing" instead of bothering and missing out the "too" in many people's minds.

Very easy to see what people might have done differently in hindsight.

[rammygirl]

People didn’t register to avoid taxes. They were given good warning about what they needed to do to remain many simply opted not to. 

[Marisawright]

1 hour ago, DrDougster said:

Not sure why registering for residency was "the right thing" in a European community. I think maybe there's also an argument for "needing" instead of bothering and missing out the "too" in many people's minds.

Very easy to see what people might have done differently in hindsight.

No need for hindsight. They should have known. The registration requirement has been in place for many years. Right at the start of Brexit, the need to register was well publicised, so people had years to do it and didn’t. Only themselves to blame frankly. 

Lots of sob stories in the newspapers but they never explain why  they weren’t covered by the arrangements in place

Edited October 19, 2022 by Marisawright

[Marisawright]

@DrDougster, here's a bit more about it.  

Although citizens of all EU countries have the right of free travel, it has always been the case that if you wanted to move permanently to another member state, you had to register, and start the process of getting a residency permit.  If you didn't register, you were "undocumented", i.e. staying illegally.  As the Sun article below says, the Spanish authorities turned a blind eye to that until Brexit.  Even then, they were pretty generous, offering a two-year transitional period to let people get registered (which ended some time in 2021).   However even then, a lot of Brits didn't register.

I always wondered why so many Brits didn't bother registering.  I assumed it was either ignorance, or they didn't speak any Spanish and didn't want to engage with complicated Spanish bureaucracy.  However as @rammygirl pointed out, many deliberately didn't register -- to avoid paying tax and medical insurance in Spain.  

That's come back to bite them now, because when they try to register, they can't prove they've been living in Spain since before Brexit, because they paid no Spanish tax or medical insurance -- which is their own fault, because they deliberately avoided doing so.  

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14486433/brit-expats-ignoring-rules-leave-spain-brexit/

https://balcellsgroup.com/what-will-happen-to-uk-citizens-in-spain-after-brexit/

Edited October 19, 2022 by Marisawright

[DrDougster]

I agree some were caught by not registering to avoid taxes. But, people with holiday homes that intended to retire to had no reason to register for residency and they had their plans dashed.

From Australia, the UK looks like an awful place to be at the moment! 

[Parley]

49 minutes ago, DrDougster said:

I agree some were caught by not registering to avoid taxes. But, people with holiday homes that intended to retire to had no reason to register for residency and they had their plans dashed.

From Australia, the UK looks like an awful place to be at the moment! 

I'm sure everyone had heard of Brexit.

[Marisawright]

1 hour ago, DrDougster said:

I agree some were caught by not registering to avoid taxes. But, people with holiday homes that intended to retire to had no reason to register for residency and they had their plans dashed.

Ah, that's a different subject. You questioned whether my friends, who were already living in a villa in Spain before they came to Australia, would be able to return. 

I agree that people who bought a holiday home before 2016, intending to retire in it one day, have had their hopes dashed.  But that was six years ago.  Anyone who bought after 2016 were either stupid, or living under a rock, or are planning to apply for a 'non-lucrative' visa, which is open to all foreigners (like my Australian friend who just retired to Granada).  

I was not in favour of Brexit, by the way, and agree it is a sh!tstorm in terms of the economy, but I think this is one area where Brexit's effect has been greatly exaggerated. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Marisawright

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, DrDougster said:

I agree some were caught by not registering to avoid taxes. But, people with holiday homes that intended to retire to had no reason to register for residency and they had their plans dashed.

From Australia, the UK looks like an awful place to be at the moment! 

Unless you fancy your chances of becoming a cabinet minister, in which case things are looking up!