Choosing Arrival Location with Family

[can1983]

For what its worth I don't think $1-1.5M is affordable for the 'average family'. Even if you have 50% equity the repayments are pretty high for a couple bringing in $250k a year, unless you are happy to live an otherwise basic lifestyle.

I would put the figure at $750k

[DIG85]

42 minutes ago, can1983 said:

I would put the figure at $750k

I think that’s probably quite near the mark.

[Parley]

Well the median house price in Melbourne is now over $1M. It will be higher in Sydney. Maybe slightly less in Brisbane.

$750K may not buy you much.

[can1983]

6 minutes ago, DIG85 said:

I think that’s probably quite near the mark.

I have to say its based on our situation and that of our friends and family living in a variety of locations in the UK and Australia. Most of us being couples both with jobs based on degree level training without access to old money and having 2 or 3 children. That rules out Sydney, Melbourne and London...

If we were from wealthy families or had been sensible and quit school at 16 to become a tradie rather than think continued education was the way to go  we might have been able to afford $2M with a couple of land cruisers (not that im bitter or anything!)

Edited March 1, 2022 by can1983
typo

[Parley]

7 minutes ago, can1983 said:

I have to say its based on our situation and that of our friends and family living in a variety of locations in the UK and Australia. Most of us being couples both with jobs based on degree level training without access to old money and having 2 or 3 children. That rules out Sydney, Melbourne and London...

If we were from wealthy families or had been sensible and quit school at 16 to become a tradie rather than think continued education was the way to go  we might have been able to afford $2M with a couple of land cruisers (not that im bitter or anything!)

Not necessarily. If you are like a first home buyer you can get a smaller place but it won't be your dream home. My first home was a unit.

I'm sure most people buy a cheap place first in their 20's or early 30s and upgrade to something better later on when they are more established in their careers.

[ramot]

3 hours ago, Marisawright said:

That's a housing comparison for Brisbane vs Bristol, which is reasonable. Bear in mind that Sydney prices are double that, and that includes the outer suburbs.  

https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/interactives/costofliving/compare/brisbane-vs-sydney/

deleted

Edited March 2, 2022 by ramot

[Bulya]

5 hours ago, Parley said:

Well the median house price in Melbourne is now over $1M. It will be higher in Sydney. Maybe slightly less in Brisbane.

$750K may not buy you much.

It’s Sydney then Canberra followed by Melbourne, median all over $1m.

[WayneM]

On 21/02/2022 at 07:05, Constance said:

Hi Everyone, 

I'm new here... 

We are part way through our migration process to move with my husband and 2 young children, planning on leaving UK next summer 22.

We have decided on Sydney as our landing point as we have family west of Syd, work prospects and also as it is generally the most accessible from Scotland. We're aware that it comes with a hefty price tag in comparison to Scotland, so we are 90% but not 100%.

I'm really keen to know first hand experiences of those who moved with young children, where you lived at first (from day one), how you picked your first living location and how you settled on an area to live. 

My son will start school this year, but will restart in NSW next year as he wouldn't make the age cutoff this year (he is 4). I'm not worried about his learning as he attends nursery, but i don't want to move him more than i absolutely have to. 

A key criteria is to live as near to the coast as we can afford. We are both mid level professionals.

Thanks Ash 

Hi Ash,

So we moved to Brisbane 2.5 years ago. Our daughter moved straight into the middle of Grade 2, and our son was started school at the normal age after we had settled. 
The boy settled really easily, as he started with everyone else. For the girl, she had a tough time adjusting to the different school system and making friends. Primarily for that reason we don't plan to move suburbs until education is done.

Obviously with that possibility in mind we invested a bit of time choosing a suburb based on school, house prices and commute (train line). Being coastal wasn't a huge factor for us, but we happen to be somewhere cooler due to being near the sea, though the way the roads are laid out it is a 15 minute drive to the nearest beach. 

In the UK she went to an Ofsted Excellent school, NAPLAN is different as I think it is just the kid's academic scores but the closest we could find. https://www.goodschools.com.au/ was handy. 

In choosing which city we immediately ruled out Sydney and Melbourne as the equity we had in the house in a small Northern England town just wasn't going to work, or at least, it felt like a big risk not knowing what our salaries would be exactly. We considered climate, and I went on https://www.seek.com.au/ and I searched for how many jobs were available for my skills and divided it by the population of each city to get an idea of demand per head. Not the most scientific or informed way I am sure, but we needed some mechanism! I also work in IT, and have found that almost all of the work is in the CBD - in England I never had a job in a city centre. Though I sense the new normal is going to be office based only 1 or 2 days a week.

When we arrived we rented an AirB&B for a few weeks, with buying a car a priority in addition to spending most of our days checking out houses to rent in different suburbs we thought may have potential. Our residential situation was:-

A) 3 Weeks AirB&B in a place that wasn't a target suburb. Whilst there we got bank accounts, bought a car, sorted out government registrations for healthcare etc. A place that wasn't temporary to have as some sort of address for car/bank registration etc. would have been better.
B) 6 months renting 1st house (and during January realising that we really really needed a house with ducted ac)
C) 18 months renting in the same suburb whilst saving aggressively, and watching house prices rise almost as aggressively (luckily, we have a good income)
D) Bought in same suburb

Talking to mortage brokers it seems like they want you to have been in a job for minimum 6 months, and have 10% deposit set aside in addition to tax (stamp duty) which was significant. A multiple of 4 to 5 x family income seemed to be their borrowing limit.

If you have family in/near Sydney and can afford to take time out of work it certainly sounds like a good idea to stay with them for a couple of weeks at least to get your bearings and basic logistics sorted out. Personally I'd decide when in the UK what your target residential city is, and if it's Sydney stay there, if not, fly or drive to wherever you are going to be. Obviously that assumes your visa isn't state/region specific.
 

Happy to help if any of that prompts further thoughts or considerations you want to bounce around.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, WayneM said:

Hi Ash,

So we moved to Brisbane 2.5 years ago. Our daughter moved straight into the middle of Grade 2, and our son was started school at the normal age after we had settled. 
The boy settled really easily, as he started with everyone else. For the girl, she had a tough time adjusting to the different school system and making friends. Primarily for that reason we don't plan to move suburbs until education is done.

Obviously with that possibility in mind we invested a bit of time choosing a suburb based on school, house prices and commute (train line). Being coastal wasn't a huge factor for us, but we happen to be somewhere cooler due to being near the sea, though the way the roads are laid out it is a 15 minute drive to the nearest beach. 

In the UK she went to an Ofsted Excellent school, NAPLAN is different as I think it is just the kid's academic scores but the closest we could find. https://www.goodschools.com.au/ was handy. 

In choosing which city we immediately ruled out Sydney and Melbourne as the equity we had in the house in a small Northern England town just wasn't going to work, or at least, it felt like a big risk not knowing what our salaries would be exactly. We considered climate, and I went on https://www.seek.com.au/ and I searched for how many jobs were available for my skills and divided it by the population of each city to get an idea of demand per head. Not the most scientific or informed way I am sure, but we needed some mechanism! I also work in IT, and have found that almost all of the work is in the CBD - in England I never had a job in a city centre. Though I sense the new normal is going to be office based only 1 or 2 days a week.

When we arrived we rented an AirB&B for a few weeks, with buying a car a priority in addition to spending most of our days checking out houses to rent in different suburbs we thought may have potential. Our residential situation was:-

A) 3 Weeks AirB&B in a place that wasn't a target suburb. Whilst there we got bank accounts, bought a car, sorted out government registrations for healthcare etc. A place that wasn't temporary to have as some sort of address for car/bank registration etc. would have been better.
B) 6 months renting 1st house (and during January realising that we really really needed a house with ducted ac)
C) 18 months renting in the same suburb whilst saving aggressively, and watching house prices rise almost as aggressively (luckily, we have a good income)
D) Bought in same suburb

Talking to mortage brokers it seems like they want you to have been in a job for minimum 6 months, and have 10% deposit set aside in addition to tax (stamp duty) which was significant. A multiple of 4 to 5 x family income seemed to be their borrowing limit.

If you have family in/near Sydney and can afford to take time out of work it certainly sounds like a good idea to stay with them for a couple of weeks at least to get your bearings and basic logistics sorted out. Personally I'd decide when in the UK what your target residential city is, and if it's Sydney stay there, if not, fly or drive to wherever you are going to be. Obviously that assumes your visa isn't state/region specific.
 

Happy to help if any of that prompts further thoughts or considerations you want to bounce around.

This response is everything i was hoping for, thank you! 

If you don't mind I'll take time to digest it, check out your points and might come back to you with more questions. 

Really so helpful, thanks for taking the time to come back to me. 

[BeachBabe2022]

On 21/02/2022 at 08:05, Constance said:

We have decided on Sydney as our landing point as we have family west of Syd, work prospects

A key criteria is to live as near to the coast as we can afford. We are both mid level professionals.

 

Hello Ash

Yes, Sydney is a good landing spot for a wide variety of work prospects

Most real estate near the coast is a tad expensive in Sydney.

Therefore, the further South or further North you go - the cheaper it will be 

Wollongong to the South, and Terrigal on the Central Coast to the North, are both within travelling distance daily to the Sydney CBD.

But I would not go too much further outside those areas, as the daily commute gets a bit long thereafter. 

 

[can1983]

39 minutes ago, BeachBabe2022 said:

Hello Ash

Yes, Sydney is a good landing spot for a wide variety of work prospects

Most real estate near the coast is a tad expensive in Sydney.

Therefore, the further South or further North you go - the cheaper it will be 

Wollongong to the South, and Terrigal on the Central Coast to the North, are both within travelling distance daily to the Sydney CBD.

But I would not go too much further outside those areas, as the daily commute gets a bit long thereafter. 

 

 come on Wollongong and Terrigal are 3-4 hours a day travel time to Sydney and that's if you live at one rail station and work at the other. Its not reasonable even slightly

[Marisawright]

48 minutes ago, can1983 said:

 come on Wollongong and Terrigal are 3-4 hours a day travel time to Sydney 

Actually, Wollongong is 1 hour 40 minutes on the train from the city centre, if you get a fast train.  Terrigal is about 2 hours.   People do it, just like people commute from Bournemouth to London.  

It wouldn't be my choice, but some people are willing to do it.   It's a matter of personal taste.

[DIG85]

2 hours ago, Marisawright said:

Actually, Wollongong is 1 hour 40 minutes on the train from the city centre, if you get a fast train.  Terrigal is about 2 hours.   People do it, just like people commute from Bournemouth to London.  

It wouldn't be my choice, but some people are willing to do it.   It's a matter of personal taste.

So that’s 3-4 hours a day travel time, as can1983 stated.

I have no idea how people commute from Bournemouth to London. Especially daily pre-covid, although with WFH now so common post-covid it might be easier. Bournemouth to London is 2 1/4 hours, so even if you live only 5 mins from Bournemouth station, and allow 10 minutes just to exit the huge Waterloo station and get to an office next door to the station - that’s 5 hours minimum a day commuting. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by DIG85

[Guest AltyMatt]

On 01/03/2022 at 14:45, Ausvisitor said:

Being totally pedantic, that is a good place to start but it won't be correct.

As you say a lot of people don't own, but also a lot who do own, own a house that is worth a lot less than they could have afforded.

 

For instance we are looking at $1.2m houses, but we could go up to $2m+ but we don't feel comfortable at that level, the bank is happy we could afford it but we would prefer not to. 

So the question of what someone could afford is a very difficult one to answer

on the flip side, there are also a lot who own a house that is now worth a lot more than they could afford. Prices have outpaced wages to the point that many could not afford to buy their own home

[Marisawright]

1 hour ago, DIG85 said:

I have no idea how people commute from Bournemouth to London. 

I can't imagine it either.  Seems absolutely crazy to me, but when we were living in that area, there was a growing number of people who were doing it, mainly young people who were trying to get a foot on the property ladder and had been priced out of everything closer to London.

I also had a friend who commuted from Birmingham to London every day for over a year.  Her husband worked somewhere north of Birmingham and she worked in London. 

[bug family]

On 01/03/2022 at 15:31, Parley said:

I would agree $1M to $1.2M is what the average person can afford today. Maybe more actually (could be $1.5M or more) as Ausvisitor points out, the banks are willing to lend a lot.

Right o.....just for balance i have worked since I was 15 and never been out of work and worked extremely hard (earlier if you count a paper round ) ....i will leave Australia with a few thousand in my pocket, ... in your opinion $1m to 1.2m as what the average person can afford, not in my or anyone I knows life time...maybe i have been mixing in the wrong circles  

[Guest AltyMatt]

6 hours ago, DIG85 said:

So that’s 3-4 hours a day travel time, as can1983 stated.

I have no idea how people commute from Bournemouth to London. Especially daily pre-covid, although with WFH now so common post-covid it might be easier. Bournemouth to London is 2 1/4 hours, so even if you live only 5 mins from Bournemouth station, and allow 10 minutes just to exit the huge Waterloo station and get to an office next door to the station - that’s 5 hours minimum a day commuting. 

Working From Home has expanded the job opportunities for many people. I work for one of the larger employers in Australia and we have hired staff in country NSW, Victoria and Queensland for roles that previously would be only available to those within commuting distance of Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane.

This isn't a temporary COVID workaround either - so if you have a decent internet connection and progressive employer you could find it doable to reside in Umina or Jervis Bay and still 'work' in Sydney

[DIG85]

27 minutes ago, AltyMatt said:

Working From Home has expanded the job opportunities for many people. I work for one of the larger employers in Australia and we have hired staff in country NSW, Victoria and Queensland for roles that previously would be only available to those within commuting distance of Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane.

This isn't a temporary COVID workaround either - so if you have a decent internet connection and progressive employer you could find it doable to reside in Umina or Jervis Bay and still 'work' in Sydney

I guess one interesting question is how long will employers keep paying sydney salaries to people who live in umina and jervis bay and only visit the office once or twice a week on average (or even less). As someone who lives and works in sydney I wouldn’t be too impressed at being the on same pay scale as someone who enjoys vastly lower living costs and travelling costs.

Edited March 4, 2022 by DIG85

[Ausvisitor]

34 minutes ago, DIG85 said:

I guess one interesting question is how long will employers keep paying sydney salaries to people who live in umina and jervis bay and only visit the office once or twice a week on average (or even less). As someone who lives and works in sydney I wouldn’t be too impressed at being the on same pay scale as someone who enjoys vastly lower living costs and travelling costs.

But... I'm paying you to do a job and that value is based on how well you do the job, not how much it costs you to live in the location you have chosen to live.

Now if you can do the job better because you are in town then that's a different story, but if the outcome is the same whether done in office or outback then I don't see why pay should differ

[Parley]

11 hours ago, bug family said:

Right o.....just for balance i have worked since I was 15 and never been out of work and worked extremely hard (earlier if you count a paper round ) ....i will leave Australia with a few thousand in my pocket, ... in your opinion $1m to 1.2m as what the average person can afford, not in my or anyone I knows life time...maybe i have been mixing in the wrong circles  

I'm very sorry for the situation you have found yourself in. I sincerely hope you can bounce back and have a good life in the UK.

I might not have expressed myself well. I am not meaning to say the average person is a millionaire. I know many cannot afford to buy a home. What I was meaning is that near me and really for the whole of the east coast of Australia the average home buyer is forking out over a million dollars to buy a home. Very rare to see a house under a million near me except for units and smaller townhouses where a block has been subdivided. There are smaller cheaper homes targeted at first home buyers out in the new estates, but I'm referring to the average home buyer as probably well established probably buying their 2nd home.

Regardless of the back story of these people, most homes I see results for are well over a million so they are financing them somehow.

[rammygirl]

9 hours ago, Ausvisitor said:

But... I'm paying you to do a job and that value is based on how well you do the job, not how much it costs you to live in the location you have chosen to live.

Now if you can do the job better because you are in town then that's a different story, but if the outcome is the same whether done in office or outback then I don't see why pay should differ

Because Sydney CBD still needs cleaners, retail workers, carers etc. they wouldn’t be able to work from home or afford to commute long distances. They need a better wage or they will go elsewhere and who would fill those jobs then? It is the same in London, those jobs get a London weighting (not enough) but otherwise they couldn’t attract people. 

[BeachBabe2022]

20 hours ago, can1983 said:

 come on Wollongong and Terrigal are 3-4 hours a day travel time to Sydney and that's if you live at one rail station and work at the other. Its not reasonable even slightly

No. They are NOT that long a travel time. I know loads of people who commute into the CBD every day from both these places. Some people drive, but most catch the train. Both ARE completely reasonable.

[Ausvisitor]

44 minutes ago, rammygirl said:

Because Sydney CBD still needs cleaners, retail workers, carers etc. they wouldn’t be able to work from home or afford to commute long distances. They need a better wage or they will go elsewhere and who would fill those jobs then? It is the same in London, those jobs get a London weighting (not enough) but otherwise they couldn’t attract people. 

In terms of these sorts of roles I agree with you, but you agree with me too. A cleaner working to clean a Sydney office will do a much better job actually turning up to the office rather than doing it from home!

I was referring to the more office/computer based jobs (accountant/banker - not counter teller, management consultant, lawyer etc.) all of whom can probably churn out the same stuff at home or the office and really only need to go to the occasional face to face get together - these roles should not have a city "uplift" in their salaries, as the choice of where that person lives is largely irrelevant.

[BeachBabe2022]

16 hours ago, Marisawright said:

 

I also had a friend who commuted from Birmingham to London every day for over a year.  Her husband worked somewhere north of Birmingham and she worked in London. 

I have a friend who works in London and lives in Wellingborough. About 75 minutes on the train I think she said. Then she has to travel 20 minutes on the tube to her office.  She has done this trip daily for around 12 years now. That is about 70 or 80 miles each way (130 kms) - and both the areas I suggested are less than this.

[Marisawright]

1 hour ago, BeachBabe2022 said:

No. They are NOT that long a travel time. I know loads of people who commute into the CBD every day from both these places. Some people drive, but most catch the train. Both ARE completely reasonable.

That is a matter of personal opinion. It will vary from person to person.  You've seen that on this very forum.  You think it's reasonable, your friend thinks it's reasonable, but I would find the very idea horrific and so would Can1983.  So it's not reasonable to say "it's reasonable".  Instead, be specific and say, "the commute from these places is 1.5 to 2 hours on the train, plus the time it takes you to get to and from the stations".  Then people can decide for themselves whether they'd think that reasonable.

(and by the way, I did check the train timetables before making that statement and yes, they are as far as was stated).

Like I said, I know someone who commuted from Birmingham to London for a year.  I know two guys who commuted from Newcastle to Sydney for over a year. I knew a couple of people who commuted from Bournemouth.   I'd have to say that although they all did it, not one of them thought it was "reasonable".   They did it because in their circumstances, it was the most sensible thing to do, but they would all rather not have had to do it. 

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Marisawright