I am so bored in Australia

[Blue Flu 1,164]

1 hour ago, Toots said:

So what are you trying to say Mr Flu?  OK, you seem to be a bit of a recluse as you find it hard to find people of your intellect to converse with especially if they are not English or from the 'continent' in other words not Australian.  

I take people as I find them without judging them for their faults or quirks - in fact the quirkier the better as far as I'm concerned.

Well going on the OP I'm not alone in voicing a degree of difficulty in the maintainance of social relationships on the local scene. In fact it is a matter that is raised with great frequency. Nothing reclusive about me, though perfectly fine with own company and of those close to me. Although you did raise a similar interpretation of my online persona, I seem to recall on a previous ocassion. Sorry if I give out such a vibe as it is completely out of whack. (for the most part) I too adore quirk, simply don't find that much around me. I'm far from Eurocentric as well. In fact there was a time when I preferred more 'exotic' cultures  it would be fair to say.  I'd suspect  it's a tad more involved than taking people how you find them. There needs to be a two way level of communication to make the thing work. 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Blue Flu

[beketamun 594]

1 hour ago, Blue Flu said:

But adapt to what exactly? Living in an indifferent environment, if a person used to living in a place with greater siocial interaction, one should simply accept without comment? Usually expat communities have their own sense of place and quite different from a settler community. 

Interesting points.  As immigrant communities go, the English don't have one do they?  The Irish are the best immigrants in the world, not always their choice of course, but there are Irish pubs and clubs in every city in the world, networks of people to get you settled in and help with work....not so many English clubs.  The Scots have Burns clubs, The Polish have clubs, Croatians, Greeks, Italians with communities centred around Italian restaurants, even the Lebanese in Australia....but they are all smaller of course.  The English organise nothing, the expectation is that you just go it alone but there is no sense of any "belonging" to anything?

What is the English niche..I don't think we actually have an immigrant identity because we were used to taking things over and trying to shape them to be absorbed into our culture, rather than assimilating.  It's a fascinating culture, even going back to William the Conqueror and a Norman King who invaded England and then his French people took on the identity of the English rather than make it an extension of Normandy.  I don't think that's ever happened anywhere where the conquered have won the culture war by acting like a sponge despite losing the actual war and leadership power.

Edited December 31, 2021 by beketamun

[Marisawright 10,724]

15 minutes ago, Blue Flu said:

In fact it is a matter that is raised with great frequency

This is true - however, you have to remember that if a migrant is happily settled in Australia and enjoying life, they have no reason to seek out these forums.   So the percentage of those who don't settle is, logically, much higher than it is out there in the real world.

[Marisawright 10,724]

2 minutes ago, beketamun said:

Interesting points.  As immigrant communities go, the English don't have one do they?  The Irish are the best immigrants in the world, not always their choice of course, but there are Irish pubs and clubs in every city in the world, networks of people to get you settled in and help with work....not so many English clubs.  The Scots have Burns clubs, The Polish have clubs, Croatians, Greeks, Italians ...

Even the Scots and Welsh don't go in for clubs all that much.  

[Toots 12,167]

26 minutes ago, Blue Flu said:

Well going on the OP I'm not alone in voicing a degree of difficulty in the maintainance of social relationships on the local scene. In fact it is a matter that is raised with great frequency. Nothing reclusive about me, though perfectly fine with own company and of those close to me. Although you did raise a similar interpretation of my online persona, I seem to recall on a previous ocassion. Sorry if I give out such a vibe as it is completely out of whack. (for the most part) I too adore quirk, simply don't find that much around me. I'm far from Eurocentric as well. In fact there was a time when I preferred more 'exotic' cultures  it would be fair to say.  I'd suspect  it's a tad more involved than taking people how you find them. There needs to be a two way level of communication to make the thing work. 

Well you do give the impression I hinted at in my previous post.  No need to apologise.  For all I know you are nothing like that at all but you do give an impression of being unsatisfied with life and the inhabitants of Perth.

I also enjoy my own company and can happily spend a lot of time on my own and of course with my dear old better half.

Anyway, a Happy New Year to you Mr Flu.

[Bulya 2,827]

1 hour ago, ramot said:

Only my last move before Australia was expat,  Some of us have to move because of our husband’s work, whether we like it or not, move and settle our children into yet another school, let alone the pain of of leaving  them behind when overseas, that’s hard for them to keep adjusting, making new friends, cope without you. In service life you don’t always live in married quarters, you have to integrate into local settled life. I hope no one thinks that’s easy 

I often read or hear about people asking “Who was your teacher in primary school?”.  Geez I couldn’t tell ‘em which country I was in or the name/type of school let alone my teachers name.  

Edited December 31, 2021 by Bulya
Grammar

[Toots 12,167]

40 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

Even the Scots and Welsh don't go in for clubs all that much.  

There are those Highland Gatherings but they're not my cup of tea.

[MacGyver 1,742]

3 hours ago, Toots said:

There are those Highland Gatherings but they're not my cup of tea.

There are a few other Scottish groups (St Andrew’s Society, Caledonian Society etc) but they tend to focus on biscuit tin ideas of Scottishness and they’re nowhere near as successful as the Irish groups. I think it’s partly to do with the strength and lived experience of Irish culture and language and understanding of their history and identity, which I envy and admire.

Scotland (like wales and England in many ways) has lost connection with culture, language,  history and identity. Some would argue due to cultural subjugation (eg banning of language, tradition and dress hundreds of years ago), others would argue due to a consensual merging of cultures as part of the formation and development of the UK.

Whatever the reason, tradition and culture are largely lost/misunderstood and people don’t feel a strong connection to it, meaning the groups/clubs are small and poorly attended and unable to form strong communities (as the Irish ones do). Instead, many identify Scottishness with other “cultural” factors like football teams, irn bru, square sausage, pipe bands etc, so they flock to the highland gatherings as that’s what they offer “eat square sausage, drink a pint of tenents lager, buy some tablet, feel Scottish”. 

[beketamun 594]

6 hours ago, MacGyver said:

There are a few other Scottish groups (St Andrew’s Society, Caledonian Society etc) but they tend to focus on biscuit tin ideas of Scottishness and they’re nowhere near as successful as the Irish groups. I think it’s partly to do with the strength and lived experience of Irish culture and language and understanding of their history and identity, which I envy and admire.

Scotland (like wales and England in many ways) has lost connection with culture, language,  history and identity. Some would argue due to cultural subjugation (eg banning of language, tradition and dress hundreds of years ago), others would argue due to a consensual merging of cultures as part of the formation and development of the UK.

Whatever the reason, tradition and culture are largely lost/misunderstood and people don’t feel a strong connection to it, meaning the groups/clubs are small and poorly attended and unable to form strong communities (as the Irish ones do). Instead, many identify Scottishness with other “cultural” factors like football teams, irn bru, square sausage, pipe bands etc, so they flock to the highland gatherings as that’s what they offer “eat square sausage, drink a pint of tenents lager, buy some tablet, feel Scottish”. 

This is the one i meant, it takes a lot of money from it's buffet so you're probably right about them not surviving on cultural activities alone, but the history bit is interesting.  

https://www.burnsclub.com.au/about-us/history/

When we came to ACT 10 years ago, it was after the GFC and there were "a lot" of young Irish here looking for work on short stay or tourist VISAs.  They employed thousands on the Canberra Dam project and a substantial number were Irish, and they were getting jobs via the immigrant network and the Irish club....it was very well organised and integrated into the fabric.  I still keep in touch now with some of them who live far away, but they were helped into work and residency, and in some cases, found husbands and wives via it. 

https://www.irishclub.com.au/

I don't see any English equivalent, we don't make great immigrants because we don't see ourselves as immigrants, but "expats". Then you see the amount of "ping pongers" who leave feeling that they got no support and end up being resentful for years.

Edited December 31, 2021 by beketamun

[beketamun 594]

10 hours ago, Toots said:

There are those Highland Gatherings but they're not my cup of tea.

can you not toss a caber then?  

[Marisawright 10,724]

54 minutes ago, beketamun said:

I don't see any English equivalent, we don't make great immigrants because we don't see ourselves as immigrants, but "expats". Then you see the amount of "ping pongers" who leave feeling that they got no support and end up being resentful for years.

I'm not sure that's right.   I think the most successful immigrants are the ones who don't think of themselves as immigrants for very long.  Those who cling to their old culture and spend all their time in an immigrant "ghetto", associating with people from "the old country" are never usually as happy as the ones who just decide, "I've moved to Australia to be Australian" and throw themselves into becoming part of the new culture.

It's interesting that there's an actual Scottish Club in Canberra.  I've seen Burns Clubs in other cities but they usually run a Burns Supper once a year and practically nothing else. 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Marisawright

[Skani 5,385]

11 hours ago, beketamun said:

The Polish have clubs, Croatians, Greeks, Italians with communities centred around Italian restaurants, even the Lebanese in Australia....but they are all smaller of course.  The English organise nothing, the expectation is that you just go it alone but there is no sense of any "belonging" to anything?

Of course the main difference is language.  If you arrive in Australia with no, or minimal,  English language the passport to survival is belonging to a common language support group.  That's not a problem UK migrants have.  Similarly customs, food and social structures are not as alien for UK migrants so they don't need as much compatriot support. 

[Parley 7,791]

13 minutes ago, Skani said:

Of course the main difference is language.  If you arrive in Australia with no, or minimal,  English language the passport to survival is belonging to a common language support group.  That's not a problem UK migrants have.  Similarly customs, food and social structures are not as alien for UK migrants so they don't need as much compatriot support. 

I didn't think you were allowed to immigrate with little or no English.

[Bulya 2,827]

2 hours ago, beketamun said:

This is the one i meant, it takes a lot of money from it's buffet so you're probably right about them not surviving on cultural activities alone, but the history bit is interesting.  

https://www.burnsclub.com.au/about-us/history/

When we came to ACT 10 years ago, it was after the GFC and there were "a lot" of young Irish here looking for work on short stay or tourist VISAs.  They employed thousands on the Canberra Dam project and a substantial number were Irish, and they were getting jobs via the immigrant network and the Irish club....it was very well organised and integrated into the fabric.  I still keep in touch now with some of them who live far away, but they were helped into work and residency, and in some cases, found husbands and wives via it. 

https://www.irishclub.com.au/

I don't see any English equivalent, we don't make great immigrants because we don't see ourselves as immigrants, but "expats". Then you see the amount of "ping pongers" who leave feeling that they got no support and end up being resentful for years.

What support do you think they were looking for?

[Quinkla 2,654]

35 minutes ago, Parley said:

I didn't think you were allowed to immigrate with little or no English.

Many visas require little or no English. The Ielts 4.5 level for functional English is a very low level, and many visa holders are not even required to get to that level.

[Blue Flu 1,164]

13 hours ago, Toots said:

Well you do give the impression I hinted at in my previous post.  No need to apologise.  For all I know you are nothing like that at all but you do give an impression of being unsatisfied with life and the inhabitants of Perth.

I also enjoy my own company and can happily spend a lot of time on my own and of course with my dear old better half.

Anyway, a Happy New Year to you Mr Flu.

What I do is I believe, simply state how i find Perth , warts and all and air a degree of comprehension into some of the issues raised by others. But you are correct. I am very dissatisfied with aspects of Perth , I'm being forced to endure. I suspect most all would and it would certainly cloud opinions of living in Perth.  Something of a different issue though for the reasons most often raised on here, although aspects of concerns raised most certainly strike a cord with me.

Here's hoping for a better New Year for all which is reflected in the Toots household, already imagined as a place of imposed serenity.   

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Blue Flu

[Blue Flu 1,164]

30 minutes ago, Quinkla said:

Many visas require little or no English. The Ielts 4.5 level for functional English is a very low level, and many visa holders are not even required to get to that level.

Quite so. Some even labour under the illusion that only professionals, in demand are only accepted under the immigration program. 

[Blue Flu 1,164]

2 hours ago, Marisawright said:

I'm not sure that's right.   I think the most successful immigrants are the ones who don't think of themselves as immigrants for very long.  Those who cling to their old culture and spend all their time in an immigrant "ghetto", associating with people from "the old country" are never usually as happy as the ones who just decide, "I've moved to Australia to be Australian" and throw themselves into becoming part of the new culture.

It's interesting that there's an actual Scottish Club in Canberra.  I've seen Burns Clubs in other cities but they usually run a Burns Supper once a year and practically nothing else. 

Not at all sure about that one. I see Australia not so much as ghettos to date, as first generation usually move on, but the retention of cultural identity actually provides an added onus to succeed to some. Italians, are a prime example. Outwardly all the Aussie characteristics , but full awareness of being Italian within the greater identity frame work. Same applies to Turkish, but not really to Dutch. 

I suppose it gets back to what being an Australian actually means? Another question often raised but seldom answered t adequately.  

[Marisawright 10,724]

6 minutes ago, Blue Flu said:

Not at all sure about that one. I see Australia not so much as ghettos to date, as first generation usually move on, but the retention of cultural identity actually provides an added onus to succeed to some. Italians, are a prime example.

It varies by nationality.   Italians seem to hit a good balance between keeping their Italian identity and becoming Aussies at the same time. However, those from the ex-Yugoslav countries seem to be far more inward-looking.    When I was working, I met many Greek "immigrants" who had PR but had no intention of staying for life.  Australia was a place to work and make money with the intention to return to Greece once the fortune was made.  They got citizenship so their kids could follow in their footsteps in the future. 

What does being Australian actually mean?  Simple, IMO.   It means feeling that Australia is your home.  Just like being British means you regard Britain as your home.  What else is there?

Edited January 1, 2022 by Marisawright

[Bobj 10,303]

2 hours ago, Marisawright said:

I'm not sure that's right.   I think the most successful immigrants are the ones who don't think of themselves as immigrants for very long.  Those who cling to their old culture and spend all their time in an immigrant "ghetto", associating with people from "the old country" are never usually as happy as the ones who just decide, "I've moved to Australia to be Australian" and throw themselves into becoming part of the new culture.

It's interesting that there's an actual Scottish Club in Canberra.  I've seen Burns Clubs in other cities but they usually run a Burns Supper once a year and practically nothing else. 

It has bemused me for years that people migrate to a ‘new’ country and seek out their own people  and ways they left behind, rather than try to mix with the people of their chosen nation.

Six months after arriving in Australia, I moved to The Kimberley Region of Western Australia and spent the next  7 years in that magical place, not some pommy enclave in Perth, or any of the big cities.

And all I can say, is that I have had one hell of a fabulous life in the 58 years since I left the UK.

I’ll  gerroff my soapbox now…

Cheers, Bobj.

[Blue Flu 1,164]

14 hours ago, beketamun said:

Interesting points.  As immigrant communities go, the English don't have one do they?  The Irish are the best immigrants in the world, not always their choice of course, but there are Irish pubs and clubs in every city in the world, networks of people to get you settled in and help with work....not so many English clubs.  The Scots have Burns clubs, The Polish have clubs, Croatians, Greeks, Italians with communities centred around Italian restaurants, even the Lebanese in Australia....but they are all smaller of course.  The English organise nothing, the expectation is that you just go it alone but there is no sense of any "belonging" to anything?

What is the English niche..I don't think we actually have an immigrant identity because we were used to taking things over and trying to shape them to be absorbed into our culture, rather than assimilating.  It's a fascinating culture, even going back to William the Conqueror and a Norman King who invaded England and then his French people took on the identity of the English rather than make it an extension of Normandy.  I don't think that's ever happened anywhere where the conquered have won the culture war by acting like a sponge despite losing the actual war and leadership power.

There are English 'niche' groups in Perth at least. For example there are the 'scooter boys' The Mods. They display their sense of Englishness through their dress and machine. They often attend like minded events , a recent Ska music event witnessed quite a few. A number followed the now , I believe defunct Mod Squad attending their gigs. 

Then There's the football club supporters. Not solely English but never the less part of the English cultural activity. Same for the local Barmy Army supporters. 

A shame we lost our two English pubs in Perth CBD and Northbridge. A big centre of gathering for home sick English, tourists, back packers and Aussies with a nostalgia for their London days, as well as a place that celebrated St Georges Day. 

In an English speaking country, it would be most unlikely, if an English ex pat mentality that exists in France, Spain, Portugal or  Corfu, would  be erected. Settler countries seem to absorb those from kith and kin rather well. 

But British had slow uptakes of becoming Australian citizens, in the past at any rate. I know English who live here happily, but prefer to be English and maintain accent. Refuse to take nationality, but no intent to ever live in England . A bit of a mixed bag I guess. 

[Blue Flu 1,164]

13 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

It varies by nationality.   Italians seem to hit a good balance between keeping their Italian identity and becoming Aussies at the same time. However, those from the ex-Yugoslav countries seem to be far more inward-looking.    When I was working, I met many Greek "immigrants" who had PR but had no intention of staying for life.  Australia was a place to work and make money with the intention to return to Greece once the fortune was made.  They got citizenship so their kids could follow in their footsteps in the future. 

What does being Australian actually mean?  Simple, IMO.   It means feeling that Australia is your home.  Just like being British means you regard Britain as your home.  What else is there?

I tend to agree. Greeks have experienced a very high return rate. Mostly decades back and who could blame them, if secured financial security working in Australia , with the ability to live out their remainder of their lives in such a passionate and attractive environment as is Greece. Dutch had a high return rate in the sixties as well. These days, of course better social security systems in countries like Switzerland and Germany (for example) has in my experience seen people return to where they came from after a 'bit of an Australian adventure' Why not? I suppose akin to young Aussies living some years in London, for the experience and adventure of living in one of the world's most cosmopolitan environs. 

Not sure about the latter though. I've lived in countries I've called home, but never felt or was treated as a  native. What else is there? Just being. I can fully be appreciative of the country I am living in without terming myself French or Malaysian etc. 

[Lavers 1,447]

33 minutes ago, Bobj said:

It has bemused me for years that people migrate to a ‘new’ country and seek out their own people  and ways they left behind, rather than try to mix with the people of their chosen nation.

Six months after arriving in Australia, I moved to The Kimberley Region of Western Australia and spent the next  7 years in that magical place, not some pommy enclave in Perth, or any of the big cities.

And all I can say, is that I have had one hell of a fabulous life in the 58 years since I left the UK.

I’ll  gerroff my soapbox now…

Cheers, Bobj.

I can understand why people do it and I think it's nice and easy and you have more things in common.

I always thought the same in the UK when Muslims set up there own communities and it would be hard for most to integrate as they don't speak English.

For us personally though we will make friends with whoever.

[Blue Flu 1,164]

24 minutes ago, Bobj said:

It has bemused me for years that people migrate to a ‘new’ country and seek out their own people  and ways they left behind, rather than try to mix with the people of their chosen nation.

Six months after arriving in Australia, I moved to The Kimberley Region of Western Australia and spent the next  7 years in that magical place, not some pommy enclave in Perth, or any of the big cities.

And all I can say, is that I have had one hell of a fabulous life in the 58 years since I left the UK.

I’ll  gerroff my soapbox now…

Cheers, Bobj.

At the end of the day though Bobj, you washed up in an English speaking country, in very different days, not too dissatisfied to be out of England. There were clear markers at least to the economic superiority  of life in Australia, compared to just coming out of austerity, Post War Britain. Today's migrants will find it very far from being so clear cut the benefits of  moving to Australia.  Surely the real measure of integration, of course  may be better ascertained if that country was say Brazil or the like, where a whole new language  and very different cultural sensitivities and ability to really take on board a real difference. 

[Blue Flu 1,164]

26 minutes ago, Lavers said:

I can understand why people do it and I think it's nice and easy and you have more things in common.

I always thought the same in the UK when Muslims set up there own communities and it would be hard for most to integrate as they don't speak English.

For us personally though we will make friends with whoever.

Not only that, although a part of it, but for reasons of security as well. I still recall as a young fellow, the fear expressed by Bangla's in and around Brick Lane area of East London.