Questions surrounding the announcement of re-opening of international borders

[FirstWorldProblems]

Today's announcement that borders will re-open in November is great news, and I'm sure mine is not the only family hoping to travel to Australia to spend Christmas with our family there. Qantas immediately brought forward the start of bookable flights from 19 December to 14 November for their two most popular routes, London and LA.  As I have been exploring flight options today I can see people are booking them quickly.

But the announcement is light on detail, absent which it is difficult to book a flight with confidence.  Thinking there might be others struggling with the same questions, I thought I'd start a thread where we can share any answers we might find, or add to the related questions.

Question: Are family of Citizens and perm Residents able to enter?

Although the official press release refers to "australian citizens and permanent resident"s, all newspaper reports of the press conference quote the PM as saying "fully vaccinated Australians, permanent residents and family members"

Question: How do the family of citizens get a visa to join travelling citizens?

I've had a visitor visa application sat in "Received" state since February.  Do I delete it and try again?  

Question: What constitutes "fully vaccinated"?

"Seven-day home quarantine for Australian citizens and permanent residents fully vaccinated" is great news for those visiting family.  No need to spend two weeks in a hotel.  But what constitutes fully vaccinated?  Australia is very clear that this is 2 doses of an approved vaccine.    In the UK (which is one of only two destinations Qantas is opening flights for), under 18's can only have one dose.

So will they be allowed to travel?

Question: Will Qantas refund a flexible ticket?

Given the uncertainty brought by the questions above, and the speed at which tickets are being bought, it seems sensible to book a seat via a fully flexible, fully refundable tickets.  Qantas describes their "flex" ticket as "fully refundable", but when you dig into the detail on their website, the refund is always referred to as a voucher that has to be used within 12 months.  Though hidden deeply in the website you can find reference to cash refunds being something to speak to your local Qantas office about.   1hr 12mins on hold today was all I can manage before giving up.

During Covid I've had a few cancelled flights and was able to get a refund from Air China instantly but Emirates took a few months and Etihad I have a voucher with an option for refund.  What experience do people have in getting a cash refund out of Qantas when you choose to cancel? 

[Wanderer Returns]

4 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

Today's announcement that borders will re-open in November is great news, and I'm sure mine is not the only family hoping to travel to Australia to spend Christmas with our family there. Qantas immediately brought forward the start of bookable flights from 19 December to 14 November for their two most popular routes, London and LA.  As I have been exploring flight options today I can see people are booking them quickly.

But the announcement is light on detail, absent which it is difficult to book a flight with confidence.  Thinking there might be others struggling with the same questions, I thought I'd start a thread where we can share any answers we might find, or add to the related questions.

Question: Are family of Citizens and perm Residents able to enter?

Although the official press release refers to "australian citizens and permanent resident"s, all newspaper reports of the press conference quote the PM as saying "fully vaccinated Australians, permanent residents and family members"

Question: How do the family of citizens get a visa to join travelling citizens?

I've had a visitor visa application sat in "Received" state since February.  Do I delete it and try again?  

Question: What constitutes "fully vaccinated"?

"Seven-day home quarantine for Australian citizens and permanent residents fully vaccinated" is great news for those visiting family.  No need to spend two weeks in a hotel.  But what constitutes fully vaccinated?  Australia is very clear that this is 2 doses of an approved vaccine.    In the UK (which is one of only two destinations Qantas is opening flights for), under 18's can only have one dose.

So will they be allowed to travel?

Question: Will Qantas refund a flexible ticket?

Given the uncertainty brought by the questions above, and the speed at which tickets are being bought, it seems sensible to book a seat via a fully flexible, fully refundable tickets.  Qantas describes their "flex" ticket as "fully refundable", but when you dig into the detail on their website, the refund is always referred to as a voucher that has to be used within 12 months.  Though hidden deeply in the website you can find reference to cash refunds being something to speak to your local Qantas office about.   1hr 12mins on hold today was all I can manage before giving up.

During Covid I've had a few cancelled flights and was able to get a refund from Air China instantly but Emirates took a few months and Etihad I have a voucher with an option for refund.  What experience do people have in getting a cash refund out of Qantas when you choose to cancel? 

The statement yesterday is great news but I think you are really jumping the gun here. It's a classic 'Scotty from marketing' statement from the federal government in the light of growing criticism and political pressure to reopen Australia to the rest of the world. The reality is that here in Australia the State Premiers run the show - not the Prime Minister. QLD and WA are light years away from reopening at the moment - even to other states. When they eventually do, I'm pretty sure hotel quarantine will be on the cards for a long time to come because being fully vaccinated doesn't mean that you still can't catch the virus, and pass it on. The Premiers are first in line of fire, and when they get it wrong for whatever reason the media doesn't hesitate in hanging them out to dry - as we've just seen in NSW. People overseas don't appreciate the covid mindset here, which is probably about where the UK was this time last year. There are a significant percentage of people who'd be happy if the borders never reopened!

Personally, I'd not be booking any flights here at the moment unless I was returning to Australia to live permanently. There is a huge backlog of permanent residents and citizens who are also desperate to return, and they will likely be given priority over visitors when things finally get moving.

If you're going to throw caution to the wind and book flights anyway, then make sure you do it directly with the airline and ensure your tickets are fully-flexible and refundable.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but honestly, I'm telling it like it is.

[NicF]

Agree completely with the above post.  And just to add the borders will only open once a state reaches 80% vaccinated and most states apart from NSW are some way off that.  Even once 80% vaccinated premiers have said that they will not open if there are communities with significantly lower rates of vaccination.  There is little detail on how the 7 day home quarantine will work either and so far only NSW and SA have gone anywhere near the idea - I’m not aware of any of the other states agreeing to this yet.  Plus no detail on what proof someone will need to show they are fully vaccinated, even for people vaccinated here in Australia.

While I would love a trip overseas to see my mum while I still can I will be waiting for far more certainty about how the new border arrangements will work before booking flights.

[Wanderer Returns]

4 minutes ago, NicF said:

Agree completely with the above post.  And just to add the borders will only open once a state reaches 80% vaccinated and most states apart from NSW are some way off that.  Even once 80% vaccinated premiers have said that they will not open if there are communities with significantly lower rates of vaccination.  There is little detail on how the 7 day home quarantine will work either and so far only NSW and SA have gone anywhere near the idea - I’m not aware of any of the other states agreeing to this yet.  Plus no detail on what proof someone will need to show they are fully vaccinated, even for people vaccinated here in Australia.

While I would love a trip overseas to see my mum while I still can I will be waiting for far more certainty about how the new border arrangements will work before booking flights.

Same here. We wanted to go to NZ in January but we'll be lucky to get to Tassie at this rate! 

[ali]

1 hour ago, NicF said:

Agree completely with the above post.  And just to add the borders will only open once a state reaches 80% vaccinated and most states apart from NSW are some way off that.  Even once 80% vaccinated premiers have said that they will not open if there are communities with significantly lower rates of vaccination.  There is little detail on how the 7 day home quarantine will work either and so far only NSW and SA have gone anywhere near the idea - I’m not aware of any of the other states agreeing to this yet.  Plus no detail on what proof someone will need to show they are fully vaccinated, even for people vaccinated here in Australia.

While I would love a trip overseas to see my mum while I still can I will be waiting for far more certainty about how the new border arrangements will work before booking flights.

We were talking about this at dinner last night - we're desperate to be able to see my brother in QLD and also travel, however, we do feel it's likely (particularly here in WA and our cautious premier) that quarantine of some fashion (depending on where you've been) will still be in place - so you'd end up using a big chunk (if not all) of your leave entitlement to cover this.

[Marisawright]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Returns said:

 It's a classic 'Scotty from marketing' statement from the federal government in the light of growing criticism and political pressure to reopen Australia to the rest of the world.

Agree 100%.    He's very good at making these bold statements, making himself look like the good guy, but the reality often turns out to be different. 

NSW and Victoria are currently running home quarantine trial programs, they're not even finished yet.

We've already been told that once we start opening up the country,  there will still be lockdowns in individual states or cities whenever hospitals get over-stretched, and you can be sure that they will.   So there's still a risk that you'll have a flight booked and that state will slam the doors shut due to a big spike in hospitalisations. 

As Wanderer says, in the Covid-free states, there's a groundswell of people who'd be quite happy to keep the borders closed forever, and the premiers know that.  The Tasmanian premier has said he won't be opening up till they reach 90%.  I expect the WA premier would be the same or even go further. 

[JetBlast]

It's a shame they haven't considered those who aren't permanent and call Australia home. 489 holders for example. Scomo did say family of PR and Citizens, as I am the de facto partner of a Aussie maybe that would pass? Although I have an PR application (887) in progress so I won't be able to leave anyway would I?

Edited October 2, 2021 by JetBlast

[MacGyver]

2 hours ago, Marisawright said:

Agree 100%.    He's very good at making these bold statements, making himself look like the good guy, but the reality often turns out to be different. 

NSW and Victoria are currently running home quarantine trial programs, they're not even finished yet.

We've already been told that once we start opening up the country,  there will still be lockdowns in individual states or cities whenever hospitals get over-stretched, and you can be sure that they will.   So there's still a risk that you'll have a flight booked and that state will slam the doors shut due to a big spike in hospitalisations. 

As Wanderer says, in the Covid-free states, there's a groundswell of people who'd be quite happy to keep the borders closed forever, and the premiers know that.  The Tasmanian premier has said he won't be opening up till they reach 90%.  I expect the WA premier would be the same or even go further. 

The WA premier gave a late press conference yesterday and basically said what you’ve mentioned above. He said the WA chief health officer didn’t support 7 day home quarantine “at this time” and they had no plans to introduce it. Also Qantas’ recent statement about WA borders being closed until April at least, points to a very slow reopening over here.

From a selfish point of view I’m trying to remain supportive and understand we need to wait until everyone has had the opportunity to be vaccinated, but the lack of a plan or target to reopen is frustrating. Also the language being used worries me as Mr McGowan has made a number of comments recently indicating he would be happy to keep the borders closed long term with a Covid zero target. I fear we might be closed until Covid sneaks in and We have an outbreak, removing Covid zero as an option.

I feel myself drifting from supporting the premiers approach to being in opposition of it, given the increasing vaccination rates. I suspect I’m in the minority in WA though 

[Marisawright]

2 hours ago, JetBlast said:

It's a shame they haven't considered those who aren't permanent and call Australia home. 489 holders for example.

I agree, 489 and 491 visa holders have been treated shamefully.    489 and 491 visaholders were sold the idea that they were on a path to permanency, that the regions really wanted them and all they had to do was commit to the state.  So most of them do commit wholeheartedly from the start, instead of hedging their bets (e.g. by keeping their UK home) like TSS holders do.  That means that if they got stuck overseas by Covid, their home and their whole lives are here.  There's been no consideration for them at all.

[Wanderer Returns]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

The WA premier gave a late press conference yesterday and basically said what you’ve mentioned above. He said the WA chief health officer didn’t support 7 day home quarantine “at this time” and they had no plans to introduce it. Also Qantas’ recent statement about WA borders being closed until April at least, points to a very slow reopening over here.

From a selfish point of view I’m trying to remain supportive and understand we need to wait until everyone has had the opportunity to be vaccinated, but the lack of a plan or target to reopen is frustrating. Also the language being used worries me as Mr McGowan has made a number of comments recently indicating he would be happy to keep the borders closed long term with a Covid zero target. I fear we might be closed until Covid sneaks in and We have an outbreak, removing Covid zero as an option.

I feel myself drifting from supporting the premiers approach to being in opposition of it, given the increasing vaccination rates. I suspect I’m in the minority in WA though 

To be honest I think the Australia government would still be pushing 'covid zero' as a policy if it wasn't for the current outbreak in NSW and VIC, which clearly isn't going to be contained through lockdown measures. It's sad that there are now people dying every day, whereas Australia went without any fatalities for months, but at the same time I think it's been the wake-up call the nation needed to get everyone vaccinated.

[rammygirl]

There will be enough vaccine available soon for everyone 12 plus to get at least their first vaccine before Christmas. Won’t be a supply issue but willingness of people to come forward. 

[Wanderer Returns]

30 minutes ago, rammygirl said:

There will be enough vaccine available soon for everyone 12 plus to get at least their first vaccine before Christmas. Won’t be a supply issue but willingness of people to come forward. 

I don't think there's been a supply issue from the beginning if you didn't mind getting the AZ jab. The problem here in Queensland was that the centralized booking system was a complete failure, and most people ended up booking their vaccinations at a local surgery.

[FirstWorldProblems]

9 hours ago, Wanderer Returns said:

The statement yesterday is great news but I think you are really jumping the gun here. It's a classic 'Scotty from marketing' statement from the federal government in the light of growing criticism and political pressure to reopen Australia to the rest of the world. The reality is that here in Australia the State Premiers run the show - not the Prime Minister. QLD and WA are light years away from reopening at the moment - even to other states. When they eventually do, I'm pretty sure hotel quarantine will be on the cards for a long time to come because being fully vaccinated doesn't mean that you still can't catch the virus, and pass it on. The Premiers are first in line of fire, and when they get it wrong for whatever reason the media doesn't hesitate in hanging them out to dry - as we've just seen in NSW. People overseas don't appreciate the covid mindset here, which is probably about where the UK was this time last year. There are a significant percentage of people who'd be happy if the borders never reopened!

Personally, I'd not be booking any flights here at the moment unless I was returning to Australia to live permanently. There is a huge backlog of permanent residents and citizens who are also desperate to return, and they will likely be given priority over visitors when things finally get moving.

If you're going to throw caution to the wind and book flights anyway, then make sure you do it directly with the airline and ensure your tickets are fully-flexible and refundable.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but honestly, I'm telling it like it is.

And I appreciate that. I really do. But as I’m sure you can imagine, my wife, who has missed births , deaths and marriages of immediate family is absolutely desperate to see them and whilst I try to keep her expectations low, it’s my job to make it happen if it’s at all possible. 

[Wanderer Returns]

6 minutes ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

And I appreciate that. I really do. But as I’m sure you can imagine, my wife, who has missed births , deaths and marriages of immediate family is absolutely desperate to see them and whilst I try to keep her expectations low, it’s my job to make it happen if it’s at all possible. 

Yes, I can imagine - my wife and I were separated for 6 months last year due to this whole sorry mess. We thought it would only be a couple of months at the time, but then there was that 3 month lockdown in the UK!

I wonder when all this is over just how many people will return to Australia permanently from the UK - and vice versa? 

[Paul1Perth]

7 hours ago, Marisawright said:

Agree 100%.    He's very good at making these bold statements, making himself look like the good guy, but the reality often turns out to be different. 

NSW and Victoria are currently running home quarantine trial programs, they're not even finished yet.

We've already been told that once we start opening up the country,  there will still be lockdowns in individual states or cities whenever hospitals get over-stretched, and you can be sure that they will.   So there's still a risk that you'll have a flight booked and that state will slam the doors shut due to a big spike in hospitalisations. 

As Wanderer says, in the Covid-free states, there's a groundswell of people who'd be quite happy to keep the borders closed forever, and the premiers know that.  The Tasmanian premier has said he won't be opening up till they reach 90%.  I expect the WA premier would be the same or even go further. 

That happy to keep the borders closed forever in absolutely wrong. Everyone I know wants the borders, national and international, to open as soon as Mark McGowan and his team think it's safe to do so. 

I don't think it will be too long after Christmas for National borders. That's his style of doing things, he's sick of making what sounds like a promise and suddenly it's all over the papers that "Mc Gowan promises borders will be open by Christmas" or something, when he's said nothing like it. 

I saw Scott Morrisons interview yesterday and he was pretty clear that it's going to be residents stuck overseas that want to return who are going to be first in the queue.

I wouldn't be booking flights and expecting them to be honoured yet.

International flying in to anywhere but Sydney and Melbourne won't be happening for a while yet.

[Marisawright]

4 hours ago, Wanderer Returns said:

I wonder when all this is over just how many people will return to Australia permanently from the UK - and vice versa? 

I wonder that too.   Judging by all the articles full of British migrants complaining about feeling trapped in Australia, you'd think there would be a massive exodus.  But I wonder.   

I can see people who've been in the habit of visiting every year, deciding not to risk this kind of thing happening again, so they might go back. Especially if, as has been suggested, air fares will stay very expensive for a long time to come, so annual visits will be less affordable.

However there are a lot of migrants who see their families only once every two, three, five (or even more) years even in normal times.  They've been angry during Covid because they felt deprived of choice, but once they calm down, they'll realise that actually they've only missed one visit, so what's the big deal?  Especially if they enjoy their life in Australia. 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Marisawright

[newjez]

9 hours ago, MacGyver said:

The WA premier gave a late press conference yesterday and basically said what you’ve mentioned above. He said the WA chief health officer didn’t support 7 day home quarantine “at this time” and they had no plans to introduce it. Also Qantas’ recent statement about WA borders being closed until April at least, points to a very slow reopening over here.

From a selfish point of view I’m trying to remain supportive and understand we need to wait until everyone has had the opportunity to be vaccinated, but the lack of a plan or target to reopen is frustrating. Also the language being used worries me as Mr McGowan has made a number of comments recently indicating he would be happy to keep the borders closed long term with a Covid zero target. I fear we might be closed until Covid sneaks in and We have an outbreak, removing Covid zero as an option.

I feel myself drifting from supporting the premiers approach to being in opposition of it, given the increasing vaccination rates. I suspect I’m in the minority in WA though 

It wouldn't surprise me if there was an 'accidental' spread of covid to the covid free states over the next six months. It really wouldn't be hard for someone to do, either the 'government' or some anti lockdown nutters off their own back. Post a vial of virus to a willing recipient. Once delta is in and spreading, game over. No point staying closed.

[Wanderer Returns]

1 hour ago, Marisawright said:

I wonder that too.   Judging by all the articles full of British migrants complaining about feeling trapped in Australia, you'd think there would be a massive exodus.  But I wonder.   

I can see people who've been in the habit of visiting every year, deciding not to risk this kind of thing happening again, so they might go back. Especially if, as has been suggested, air fares will stay very expensive for a long time to come, so annual visits will be less affordable.

However there are a lot of migrants who see their families only once every two, three, five (or even more) years even in normal times.  They've been angry during Covid because they felt deprived of choice, but once they calm down, they'll realise that actually they've only missed one visit, so what's the big deal?  Especially if they enjoy their life in Australia. 

Totally. People miss what they can't have in that moment in time - it's just human nature.

[Karl D]

6 hours ago, Marisawright said:

I wonder that too.   Judging by all the articles full of British migrants complaining about feeling trapped in Australia, you'd think there would be a massive exodus.  But I wonder.   

I can see people who've been in the habit of visiting every year, deciding not to risk this kind of thing happening again, so they might go back. Especially if, as has been suggested, air fares will stay very expensive for a long time to come, so annual visits will be less affordable.

However there are a lot of migrants who see their families only once every two, three, five (or even more) years even in normal times.  They've been angry during Covid because they felt deprived of choice, but once they calm down, they'll realise that actually they've only missed one visit, so what's the big deal?  Especially if they enjoy their life in Australia. 

Hmmm, we come over twice a year, since 2013, to see our two daughters. The last time we were there was November 2019, we just saw our first grandson born and two days later left thinking we’d be back in 6 months. Our second grandchild is expected in January. It’s a big deal to us not getting there I assure you.

[Wanderer Returns]

3 hours ago, Karl D said:

Hmmm, we come over twice a year, since 2013, to see our two daughters. The last time we were there was November 2019, we just saw our first grandson born and two days later left thinking we’d be back in 6 months. Our second grandchild is expected in January. It’s a big deal to us not getting there I assure you.

You are very fortunate to be able to afford to do that, but I think that for most folks a visit out here every 2-3 years would be the norm. Hope it won't be too long before you get to see your new grandchild in person  

[Marisawright]

4 hours ago, Karl D said:

Hmmm, we come over twice a year, since 2013, to see our two daughters. The last time we were there was November 2019, we just saw our first grandson born and two days later left thinking we’d be back in 6 months. Our second grandchild is expected in January. It’s a big deal to us not getting there I assure you.

I'm sure it's a big deal for you.  I did not question that.  If you read my post properly, you'll notice that I said people who are used to annual visits may well go back.  

However, there are many, many migrants who visit every two, three or five years, or even longer. Some of those migrants are still making a lot of noise about not being able to visit their families, but will they actually move back?  I doubt it.  If family was so important to them, they wouldn't be able to survive for years at a time without a visit in normal times.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Marisawright

[ramot]

1 hour ago, Marisawright said:

I'm sure it's a big deal for you.  I did not question that.  If you read my post properly, you'll notice that I said people who are used to annual visits may well go back.  

However, there are many, many migrants who visit every two, three or five years, or even longer. Some of those migrants are still making a lot of noise about not being able to visit their families, but will they actually move back?  I doubt it.  If family was so important to them, they wouldn't be able to survive for years at a time without a visit in normal times.

We can all be wise with hindsight,  immigration should never be taken lightly, it’s unrealistic  to assume that you will still be able to get together for future family events.. Covid has changed the world, and until things change we have to accept it, and get on with life.I haven’t seen our son and grandsons  in England for several years and have hardly even seen my daughter who lives in Sydney over the last 18 months, yes I miss them, but like many of my friends in a similar situation, it’s hard, but we accept it, getting upset or angry achieves nothing. At least in this day and age we have FaceTime, zoom etc. Was a lot harder when I lived in Africa in the 1960’s away from my family, with only snail mail or very expensive telephone calls, but again that was my choice, 

 

[Jon the Hat]

21 hours ago, Wanderer Returns said:

To be honest I think the Australia government would still be pushing 'covid zero' as a policy if it wasn't for the current outbreak in NSW and VIC, which clearly isn't going to be contained through lockdown measures. It's sad that there are now people dying every day, whereas Australia went without any fatalities for months, but at the same time I think it's been the wake-up call the nation needed to get everyone vaccinated.

This is the going to be the new reality.  Of course it is sad when people die, but it is sad whether it is Covid or Flu or Cancer.  

[Darrenowen]

Hello, 

I wondered if anyone can offer some advise. My Father was issued his 143 contributory parent visa in 2018.

He really wants to make the move permanently to Australia this year and would love to be here by  Xmas. His visa has already been validated due to holidays back and forth from the UK.

We really want to book a flight but we are scared that it might be cancelled as this has already happened with BA.
We’ve just had his granny flat built and we live in NSW. 
The issue for him is that he needs to hand in his notice at work and give notice to his landlord. If he does that and the flight gets canceled then he could be homeless and unemployed.

When booking flights how do they know weather your a permeant resident or not?  

[Jon the Hat]

48 minutes ago, Darrenowen said:

Hello, 

I wondered if anyone can offer some advise. My Father was issued his 143 contributory parent visa in 2018.

He really wants to make the move permanently to Australia this year and would love to be here by  Xmas. His visa has already been validated due to holidays back and forth from the UK.

We really want to book a flight but we are scared that it might be cancelled as this has already happened with BA.
We’ve just had his granny flat built and we live in NSW. 
The issue for him is that he needs to hand in his notice at work and give notice to his landlord. If he does that and the flight gets canceled then he could be homeless and unemployed.

When booking flights how do they know weather your a permeant resident or not?  

Personally I would be waiting, the risk of that happening is too high at the moment.  You really don't know you have a flight until you are sitting on the plane.  We were very stressed with no job and no home in an AirBnB not knowing if we would be cancelled.  We weren't but I don't know quite what we would have done had we been.  When I quit my job and gave notice on the house flights were capped but stable.  Then they halved the caps and it was constant worry from then on.